1959-60 GM roof profiles

[HotRodaSaurus]

I have a query concerning the 1-1 roof profiles across the whole GM range and models for these years.

Hypothetically, If you cut the roof section from any model , lets say 1960 Cadillac Coupe de ville, would it fit onto a Pontiac 2 door model or Chevrolet, Buick, Olds? Would a roof from any 4 door be interchangable with the other GM bodies of the same shape etc.

I ask as the real 1-1 vehicles appear to have the same windshields and wind wings? (quarter lights in UK), Just curious but I did think about converting a Revell 59 Cadillac and fitting a Modelhause Chevy flat top roof, though I dont think this is wide enough for the Revell kit.

[Ace-Garageguy]

In many cases, the roof panels and the underlying support structural parts will interchange...and that's why, in the real world, those of us who routinely try to restore older cars where there hasn't been factory parts support for years, come to rely on various "interchange manuals". One of the most well-known is the Hollander series. These are still in production, as things like Lexus structural bits can be sourced from Toyota, etc.

The vehicle manufacturers also have supplied similar information over the years.

Much of the vintage-car info is available online, if you put enough effort into the search. There's an old Pontiac site, for instance, that publishes scans of '40s-'70s interchange info.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Art Anderson]

FWIW, for the 1959-60 model years, styling started out as warmed over, "gorped up" 1958 designs. that started in 1955, given the 3-year time frame for styling at GM, three years before the actual cars would have been introduced in the fall of 1958. However, Chrysler threw a big wrench in the works when a group of GM stylists on their lunch break saw the then new for 1957 Forward Look Chrysler cars in the late summer of 1956. A "Palace Revolution" took place at GM Styling, with all their work on styling clay mockups being scrapped, in effect starting all over, a year late, and on a smaller budget.

So, the entire 1959 GM car lineup was styled around a common body shell (from firewall to the base of the rear window--that was the traditional body shell in those days!), essentially a "B-body", which was used by Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and even Cadillac. Of course, the sheetmetal styling from bumper to bumper was unique to each division, as were chassis and drivelines, and wheelbases varied as well, but the the most visible part of the common body shells are there--with the exception of the Cadillac Fleetwood 75 Sedan Limousine, all of GM's cars that year share exactly the same roof lines, even the glass is the same from one to another!

Now, on model cars, there may well be differences in dimensions, particularly with JoHan's '59-'60 Cadillacs which are a full 1/8" too narrow (3 scale inches), while the same company's '59 Olds "flat roof" 4 window sports sedan roof is right on the money. For the most part, AMT and SMP did their '59-'60 GM full sized car models correctly in this regard, as certainly the Revell Monogram kits are quite accurate.

Art

[Ace-Garageguy]

Art touches on an excellent point I should elaborate on...

Roof panels from one GM make in the time period you're interested in will interchange as they do in the real world IF AND ONLY IF the models are scaled correctly.

For example, the '50s Olds and Chevy kits from AMT and Revell are scaled quite well actually, close enough so that it's not too difficult to swap roof sections and body panels from one to another...but it's not a drop-on, by any means.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[HotRodaSaurus]

An interesting point about the width sizes as Art points out. I think I could widen the flat top roof section but not sure if it would fit the windshield with it's compound curve at the top.

Has the topic of creating 'glass' been covered does anyone know?

Love those 50 Olds Bill

John

[Ace-Garageguy]

...Has the topic of creating 'glass' been covered does anyone know?

Single-curved windows are relatively easy to make up from clear styrene or acetate.

Compound-curved glass is another entire level of complexity, but it can be done...even if you don't have a pattern.

To make a pattern, you pretty well have to carve a 'plug' or 'buck' from bondo or some other similar material, making sure it fits your opening perfectly and has no waves on the surface.

Once you have a perfect buck, follow this tutorial to make the actual "glass". http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/?showtopic=58564

[MrObsessive]

FWIW, all of GM's '59 line styling evolved around Buick's door. I remember reading that Buick was the first to get their restyle for '59 done before the others. Buick already had their wild fin shapes starting pretty much at the door sills. If you take a look at all of the '59's you'll see how very similar if not exact the shapes are. You can pretty much bet that had Buick not gone with the delta shape of their tailfins, we might not have seen those wild fins from the other divisions, save for Cadillac.

As Art said, Chrysler was pretty much the game changer in car styling as everyone was playing catch-up. Even Ford relegated its '59 model year design to be a one year deal as the '60 cars are completely different!

I'd sure like to see a new tool '59 GM Flattop four door hardtop kitted, but I'm in dream land as it's a four door, and would never sell in the numbers to warrant such a thing.

[ranma]

FWIW, all of GM's '59 line styling evolved around Buick's door. I remember reading that Buick was the first to get their restyle for '59 done before the others. Buick already had their wild fin shapes starting pretty much at the door sills. If you take a look at all of the '59's you'll see how very similar if not exact the shapes are. You can pretty much bet that had Buick not gone with the delta shape of their tailfins, we might not have seen those wild fins from the other divisions, save for Cadillac.

As Art said, Chrysler was pretty much the game changer in car styling as everyone was playing catch-up. Even Ford relegated its '59 model year design to be a one year deal as the '60 cars are completely different!

I'd sure like to see a new tool '59 GM Flattop four door hardtop kitted, but I'm in dream land as it's a four door, and would never sell in the numbers to warrant such a thing.

That is factual info there, I have the 75th anniversery book And that is the info from that book. All G.M. cars had to design its divisional auto's around the 59 buicks door and roof.

[Art Anderson]

An interesting point about the width sizes as Art points out. I think I could widen the flat top roof section but not sure if it would fit the windshield with it's compound curve at the top.

Has the topic of creating 'glass' been covered does anyone know?

Love those 50 Olds Bill

John

I used that Modelhaus flat roof unit to make a '59 Impala Sport Sedan (4dr hardtop), and simply retained the kit windshield glass and framing, just cut the windshield off the flat roof resin part to mate it up to the plastic unit from the Chevy kit. Worked very well, and that way, you can use the Revell kit's windshield glass. The only glass that will have to be made is that wrap-around rear window, and I want to believe that comes with the resin part that Modelhaus does.

Art

Edited May 18, 2015 by Art Anderson

[ChrisBcritter]

Now, on model cars, there may well be differences in dimensions, particularly with JoHan's '59-'60 Cadillacs which are a full 1/8" too narrow (3 scale inches), while the same company's '59 Olds "flat roof" 4 window sports sedan roof is right on the money.

Art

Just for comparison, here's a Jo-Han '60 Caddy vs. a Monogram '59 Eldorado:

Pretty close, it seems. Length, however...

'59 and '60 Fleetwood/Eldorado have the same wheelbase, but sadly Jo-Han was forced to fit an existing promo box, so they took out a little bit here and and a little bit there so it wouldn't be too obvious.

[Art Anderson]

In the case of the JoHan Cadillac VS Monogram's model--I went to use the roof of the JoHan kit to create my '59 Chevy Biscayne 2dr sedan--and the Caddy roof was exacly 1/8" too narrow--I even confirmed that by measuring the roof of my 1:1 '59 Biscayne sedan. It was an easy thing to solve though--I merely spit the JoHan roof panel down the middle, then added a strip of .125" Evergreen styrene--that took care of the problem.

In looking at your comparo pics, you can clearly see the difference in the roof widths--even the windshield frames of the two kits.

Art

[HotRodaSaurus]

Here is the Revell 59 Seville and the Johan Sixty Special. Guessing this is where the length was lost.

Looks like I will have to source a junker JoHan 59 Chevy body fro the correct front glass.

[PeeBee]

Interesting topic in as that I started to modify a new-tool AMT '57 Chevy Hardtop to accept the new-release Revell '57 convertible top. That Revell body is just so far off, and the engraving so soft, that I decided I would not be happy with the results if I built the convertible out-of-the-box. Especially when compared to (IMO) the superior AMT '57. Even the wheels and dashboard of the Revell kit are off.

Anyway, after lopping off the top of the AMT body, and some careful sanding, I found that the Revell top lines up pretty close at the windshield, although it is a tad narrow there, and then way narrow at the back. If you compare the two bodies, they are close to dead-on width and lengthwise, but Revell has managed to get the relationship between the convertible top "C" pillars (for want of a better term) and the top of the rear fenders very close when compared to photos of a 1/1 car. I think I may have to widen that top; It won't look right if I just go ahead and add material to the AMT body to close up the gap between the interior and the top. Maybe I should try out an original issue AMT '57 before I start cutting that top, though. Hmmmm. The remaining guts of the Revell convertible will serve as a donor for the MCW '57 Nomad. I am going to build the Nomad as the Hollingworth car so that solves the wheel issue.

Another parts interchange I performed recently was the adaptation of A Revell '59 Chevy convertible top and windshield to the Trumpeter '60 Bonnevile convertible. This has been more straightforward, with minimal modifications. Fixing the interior on this kit is a whole other story, however, so it's still on the bench.

PB.

[Art Anderson]

Here is the Revell 59 Seville and the Johan Sixty Special. Guessing this is where the length was lost.

Looks like I will have to source a junker JoHan 59 Chevy body fro the correct front glass.

For starters, you won't find a junk JoHan '59 Chevy, as JoHan never made that kit. As for the windshield frame, if you are building this up as a Cadillac 6-Window sedan, you can mate the JoHan roof that you have to the Revell-Monogram '59 Cadillac Eldorado hardtop in your picture. Feel free to PM me, I can guide you as to how I did the same thing, only with the Revell '59 Chevy.

Art

[HotRodaSaurus]

For starters, you won't find a junk JoHan '59 Chevy, as JoHan never made that kit. As for the windshield frame, if you are building this up as a Cadillac 6-Window sedan, you can mate the JoHan roof that you have to the Revell-Monogram '59 Cadillac Eldorado hardtop in your picture. Feel free to PM me, I can guide you as to how I did the same thing, only with the Revell '59 Chevy.

Art

Hi Art, I just got a message back that you cannot receive PMs at the moment.

Cheers, John.

[Art Anderson]

Hi Art, I just got a message back that you cannot receive PMs at the moment.

Cheers, John.

You might try again--sometimes there are glitches in the system.

Art

[HotRodaSaurus]

You might try again--sometimes there are glitches in the system.

Art

Hi Art, Still trying to PM you but it is not working. Could you PM me any info please.

you asked me to pm you for any help with this conversion. Yes please, any help would be appreciated. I am just about to order the Modelhaus roof, dont know how long to get it but am looking forward to receiving and starting this long awaited project.

The other hard bit(for me) will be filling and cutting in the extra door as well as sanding off all that Eldorado trim.

Funny that Corgi die cast made the 1959 Impala in the flat top design rather than coupe, also the 'Kennel Club' wagon was a bit of a strange one I think.

Cheers, John.

[Art Anderson]

Hi Art, Still trying to PM you but it is not working. Could you PM me any info please.

you asked me to pm you for any help with this conversion. Yes please, any help would be appreciated. I am just about to order the Modelhaus roof, dont know how long to get it but am looking forward to receiving and starting this long awaited project.

The other hard bit(for me) will be filling and cutting in the extra door as well as sanding off all that Eldorado trim.

Funny that Corgi die cast made the 1959 Impala in the flat top design rather than coupe, also the 'Kennel Club' wagon was a bit of a strange one I think.

Cheers, John.

PM sent.

Art

[unclescott58]

Was at a car show yesterday and saw a very nice '59 Pontiac Star Chief Vista. Vista was the name Pontiac used for their 4-door hardtops at the time. So this was a flat top. Done in a mauve/pink that looked so right on the car. And wow, what a big car! I loved it.

Scott

[MrObsessive]

It's funny how time can change your perspective on things. In the late '60's when I was 7-8 years old, my Mom was dating someone that owned a 1960 Oldsmobile four door hardtop (88?). I can remember the shape of the roof very well as I always thought that the rear part of the roof reminded me of an "awning" the way it stuck out in the back.

I had no idea as a kid what they were calling that roofline then, I just liked the way it looked with all of the windows down on a nice day, and even sitting in the back seat (which was very often), how you could see EVERYTHING very well without huge roof pillars blocking your view.

Most folks back then probably considered them just another car as that roofline was quite commonly seen spread out over all of the GM divisions, so they were not considered particularly unique. Now collectors are tripping over themselves trying to find pristine examples that haven't suffered too badly from the dreaded tinworm.

I may even try to find a model of one someday, or at least kitbash one.

[HotRodaSaurus]

Bill, a friend has a promo 59 Chevy flat top. I dont know the maker as Art says Johan did not make one so maybe AMT or SMP? Unfortunately is is bent like a banana with the usual acetate smile.

[MrObsessive]

That would have been a Johan kit if ever one was made. For '60 Johan only made the two door (I think the only year a two door Olds was done), so I'd either have to check with Modelhaus, or take a beat up Johan '60 two door, and kitbash the rest.

I have a couple of those flat-top roof sections from Modelhaus, so one of them might come in handy. BTW, the Olds my Mom's old boyfriend had was white with a red interior, and I LOVED the speedometer on that thing--------it changed color as you went through different speeds.

[Art Anderson]

That would have been a Johan kit if ever one was made. For '60 Johan only made the two door (I think the only year a two door Olds was done), so I'd either have to check with Modelhaus, or take a beat up Johan '60 two door, and kitbash the rest.

I have a couple of those flat-top roof sections from Modelhaus, so one of them might come in handy. BTW, the Olds my Mom's old boyfriend had was white with a red interior, and I LOVED the speedometer on that thing--------it changed color as you went through different speeds.

JoHan's 1959 Oldsmobile was a 98 flat roof 4dr hardtop--scarce as hen's teeth today, but they did produce it, in both promotional and 3in1 kit form. That's where Modelhaus got the roof unit they have cast in resin for years.

Art

[Art Anderson]

Bill, a friend has a promo 59 Chevy flat top. I dont know the maker as Art says Johan did not make one so maybe AMT or SMP? Unfortunately is is bent like a banana with the usual acetate smile.

That would have been either SMP, or perhaps Product Miniatures Company (out of Milwaukee WI). JoHan didn't do any Chevrolets.

Art

[MrObsessive]

JoHan's 1959 Oldsmobile was a 98 flat roof 4dr hardtop--scarce as hen's teeth today, but they did produce it, in both promotional and 3in1 kit form. That's where Modelhaus got the roof unit they have cast in resin for years.

Art

Yeah Art, I've got the '59. It's a builtup, and it's too nice to hack up! Thank goodness for Don and Carol's resin repops as I have two of the roof sections. And yes, they're very hard to find these days in good shape without a lot of junk tacked on to 'em!