Foiling over large curves

[Roadrunner]

I read through several threads on foiling, but never did see a definitive answer to this question. When foiling trim over wheel wells for instance, is it best to try bending a long strip around the well, or using a large piece that covers the entire well, then trimming off (wasting) all the excess? It seems like even minor curves makes the foil want to kink, so I shudder to think what'll happen when I try the well trim on my current car ('69 GTX).

Thanks a bunch,

[Foxer]

I tend to do windows and curved trim in strips that cover the section with as little bending as possible. This leaves overlaps in the same placed 1:1 trim joins.

It's my cheap nature that I find covering something like a window in one piece is wasteful as well.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Bending the foil around a curve like a wheel well will be an exercise in futility.

Guaranteed to kink, and believe me, it will not look good!

You're better off biting the bullet & wasting a little foil.

Unless you don't mind them looking like BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH.

Choose a corner of your sheet & cut crescent shaped pieces, one on top of the other to foil all four wheel openings.

If you cut them like this it will minimize the waste.

I guess if you must, you could do each opening with a couple of pieces, but you're going to have an overlap some place that's going to show.

 

Steve

[Roadrunner]

That's what I was thinking too, Steve. Even a minor departure from a straight segment seems to cause kinks, so I'd imagine a wheel well would be a real nightmare. Even adding an extra wide piece to the rear of my '69 GTX got a  wrinkle or two (driver side), because I started the piece crooked. I'll leave it this way, as my nerves are already frayed, but will try to do better next time.

 

[Snake45]

Here's how I'm planning to do that trim on my '69 GTX, when I get to it.

First, not gonna use expensive BMF. Gonna use common kitchen foil and Micro Metal Foil Adhesive. This will work just as well for this trim, as there's no tiny detail on it.

Gonna use one BIG piece on each side. Only gonna worry about the "vertical" parts of the trim, i.e., not the inner edge of the wheel opening itself.

Gonna then touch up the inner lip of the wheel opening with silver Sharpie. You'll have to really look hard to notice the difference.

[Tom Geiger]

Kevin, you are on the right track. The way you did the rear window is how you should do the wheel lip moldings. BMF is cheap at $8 a sheet, so cheap it's not worth wasting you time and compromising the quality using kitchen foil and the like. And to do the job right, you need to accept that a sheet is 50% or more waste.  It's like installing wall to wall carpet, a lot of nice new carpet gets cut off and makes it to the trash!

You've already spent $25 plus on the kit.  $20 or more on paint.  You get 2 cars out of a sheet of BMF so you're worried about $4 to add the icing on the cake? (not directed at Kevin) And if you're like a lot of us the other half of the sheet will age out before we get to building another model.

BMF either looks spectacular or like a  discarded Hershey Kiss wrapper.  Your choice.

 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Tom Geiger

[StevenGuthmiller]

Kevin, you are on the right track. The way you did the rear window is how you should do the wheel lip moldings. BMF is cheap at $8 a sheet, so cheap it's not worth wasting you time and compromising the quality using kitchen foil and the like. And to do the job right, you need to accept that a sheet is 50% or more waste.  It's like installing wall to wall carpet, a lot of nice new carpet gets cut off and makes it to the trash!

You've already spent $25 plus on the kit.  $20 or more on paint.  You get 2 cars out of a sheet of BMF so you're worried about $4 to add the icing on the cake? (not directed at Kevin) And if you're like a lot of us the other half of the sheet will age out before we get to building another model.

BMF either looks spectacular or like a  discarded Hershey Kiss wrapper.  Your choice.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Tom said, except for the number of kits you can finish with a sheet.

I can usually finish at least 3, possibly 4 kits with one, & I build a lot of "chrome laden" cars.

Minimizing waste is another trick that takes practice, but I don't skimp on foil in places that will result in a sub par job.

Keeping those wrinkles out of the foil takes some practice & care to avoid as well.

Believe me, I've gone through all of this too, but after going through sheet after sheet of the stuff, you get used to it.

I probably average using 2 or 3 sheets BMF a year.

I've gotten pretty good at managing the waste too!

 

Steve

 

 

 

[Snake45]

... it's not worth wasting you time and compromising the quality using kitchen foil and the like.

 

I've used both BMF and common foils for a couple decades now. There are some jobs that BMF can do that kitchen foil simply can't. There are other jobs where foil can do just as good a job, if not even better, and do it cheaper and even easier. The trick is getting the experience to know what to use when.

[Roadrunner]

Thanks for all the replies, fellas. There's a lot of food for thought here, and I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. (Perhaps this is one reason I like the 30's cars that I do, very little chrome to fiddle with.)

[StevenGuthmiller]

Thanks for all the replies, fellas. There's a lot of food for thought here, and I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. (Perhaps this is one reason I like the 30's cars that I do, very little chrome to fiddle with.)

Kevin.

I just took a second look at your photo above & noticed something that may be causing some of your problems.

There are a ton of wrinkles in the sheet laying under the GTX body.

Those wrinkles translate into a cracked foil & consequently wrinkles in the trim.

Obviously, some where along the line, that sheet of foil was not treated with the care it needs.

BMF foil should be kept absolutely flat.

Any bending or rolling can produce those wrinkles & cracks & create havoc with your foil jobs.

Just an observation that may help out.

 

Steve

[Ramfins59]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Tom said, except for the number of kits you can finish with a sheet.

I can usually finish at least 3, possibly 4 kits with one, & I build a lot of "chrome laden" cars.

Minimizing waste is another trick that takes practice, but I don't skimp on foil in places that will result in a sub par job.

Keeping those wrinkles out of the foil takes some practice & care to avoid as well.

Believe me, I've gone through all of this too, but after going through sheet after sheet of the stuff, you get used to it.

I probably average using 2 or 3 sheets BMF a year.

I've gotten pretty good at managing the waste too!

 

Steve

 

 

 

I also agree with both Tom and Steve.  So far I've done up 3 dozen 1950's cars with tons of chrome on each one with at least 2 more dozen in the pile yet to do.  Like Steve I go through at least about 2 to 3 sheets every year.  I pick up 3 to 5 new sheets at the NNL East show every year to be sure that I always have a fresh supply on hand.  It definitely takes patience and practice to lay it down without kinks and/or wrinkles but sometimes it happens anyway.  You either keep those occurrences to a minimum and live with it, or, peel it off and start over again.  Waste is a given and should be expected, but as Steve said, with practice and experience you learn to minimize the waste.

[Roadrunner]

OK, Steve, Richard, points taken. Steve, the sheet is just a few months old and arrived that way. All the wrinkles run lengthwise, so I make all my cuts in the same direction. Those wrinkles are bad enough that if I cut across them, the strips just break at those wrinkles, every time.

I always try to store the stuff dead flat, and try to take care not to bend it all to heck. I have a brand new sheet of aluminum (not chrome) here right now, but haven't looked at it yet to see if it too is damaged or not. If it is, I may just have to seek out a new vendor.

[Roadrunner]

Oh and yes, I do tend to be "frugal' with some supplies. Perhaps that's a trait I need to change.

[StevenGuthmiller]

 All the wrinkles run lengthwise, so I make all my cuts in the same direction. Those wrinkles are bad enough that if I cut across them, the strips just break at those wrinkles, every time.

That's the right approach Kevin.

If you have those cracks, you definitely can't cut across them.

I'm not sure why the cracks appear sometimes.

I've had the same issue occasionally, but never on the scale that yours has.

I always assumed that it happened because of too much "flexing" of the sheet.

 

Steve

[Tom Geiger]

Overall BMF is probably the easiest task that produces the greatest results quickly.  It's also one of the most forgiving. If the foil comes out less than desired, you can simply peel it off and try again.  Any gum residue can be quickly wiped off with a little alcohol.  

There are a few things you can do to make it better:

1. Don't put ANY pressure on your knife.  Guys complain of cut marks on their paint jobs. Think of it as tracing lightly with a pencil. The foil is thin and cuts easily. 

2. Look over the body prior to priming and painting. Some guys will better define the chrome edges by scoring.  And recently we had a conversation in another thread about the missing chrome edge on the underside of the 1960 Buick body, so you want to look for things like this.

3. Look at photos of a 1:1 car.  For brightwork around windows, cut your pieces the same way they are pieced in on the real thing. You pretty much want to add definition to your foil there as it makes it look more realistic.  For long body side moldings, only work with a piece of a length you are comfortable with, there is no need to cut a narrow piece the length of the whole car. You can do it in sections...  quarter panel, one piece... door, one piece.... front fender, one piece... following how it was done on the 1:1 car again.

4. At first, concentrate on getting good results rather than how much product you are using.  As you get better, you will find ways to reduce the waste. But understand that there will always be waste. Just the nature of the beast.

5. Never use a piece that you have touched the gum with your hands. To put a long strip on the side of a car, you can grab it from either end, but cut it long and cut off the ends where your fingers were.

6. Never reuse a piece that was on your model. Don't put these back on the backing sheet either.  The gum is compromised and will cause you a problem in the future.

7. Never try to cut a piece to exact size of an item you are covering. On a chrome strip, cut the piece much wider and have foil to score on either side of the strip.  When you try to use an edge it's human nature to pick it up and put it down a few times until you get it exactly where you want it. That action compromises the gum and will also result in wrinkles.

8. Do BMF in sessions. Don't try to do it all in one session and rush it, or let your eyes go buggy!  If you decide your goal is to do one side of the car, or the window surrounds, do so and walk away for a while to give your eyes and body some rest.  That's an ergonomics thing!

Just a few things I've learned along the way.  I have gotten to the point where I can chrome an entire bumper, so practice makes for perfect.  Once you are comfortable with BMF it becomes quite pleasurable to do this work!   

And it's NOT expensive.  I used a number of getting two cars from a sheet, which would be $4 a car.  Steve has more experience with chrome barges and said he gets 4 cars from a sheet.. so that's only $2 a car.  At that price it's not worth messing around.  Just buy the product, and follow the experience of the folks here!

[The Fisherman]

Keep in mind - this is the 1st time I've used BFM (or any foil for that matter).

When I did the wheel well trim on Twisted Fish, I did them in three(3) pieces. One along the top and two along each side. I'd burnish and trim the top piece, then one side, then the other. There was overlap on the pieces, but it burnished completely out making the wheel wells appear to have been done with a single piece. Very little waste; not enough trimmed to use anywhere else. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

Keep in mind - this is the 1st time I've used BFM (or any foil for that matter).

When I did the wheel well trim on Twisted Fish, I did them in three(3) pieces. One along the top and two along each side. I'd burnish and trim the top piece, then one side, then the other. There was overlap on the pieces, but it burnished completely out making the wheel wells appear to have been done with a single piece. Very little waste; not enough trimmed to use anywhere else. 

You'll never be able to completely eliminate a seam between two pieces of foil.

There is inherently going to be overlap & although you can minimize the visibility of that seam with heavy burnishing, you will never completely eliminate it.

It will be visible upon close inspection.

Now, if that's okay with the builder, great.

I occasionally will do a repair some where if I make a mistake, but if it's in a highly visible area, I'll do it over.

Sometimes those seams will really stick out like a sore thumb.

If not right away, possibly later.

 

Steve

[Snake45]

Another factor: Not all of us live where we can readily and conveniently buy BMF, and if we can, we have no idea how old it is.

Kitchen foil is available everywhere, and one bottle of Micro Foil Adhesive will last for years (mine has lasted decades).

As I said, there are many jobs BMF can do that kitchen foil can't. But where kitchen foil WILL work, it is an attractive and low-cost alternative.

[935k3]

Another tip is make sure the surface you are putting foil on is as smooth as possible.

[gtx6970]

As far as doing window openings or even side trim for that matter. Study the 1/1 .

As a rule window trim is 3, sometimes 4 pieces. I do the BMF the same as the 1/1 . And I try to get my seams  in the same place as the 1/1

 

On a B body Mopar as an example. The rear window trim is 4 pieces. Each side extends up and turns and goes half way across the top . So there is a seam in the middle halfway across the top . The lower trim is also 2 pieces with a seam in the middle . So in theory, there will be 4 seams.

one on the top dead center, same for the lower . Then there will be a seam in the lower outside corner  on each side

 

[Roadrunner]

Thanks for all the good pointers, fellas, hopefully I can put this information to good use down the road.

[kitbash1]

You can also try to make a template of the area you need to foil with masking tape. I use the dollar store tape, as it's got a little less tack to it, and cut it slightly over sized. I then remove the tape template and apply it to the foil and cut out the shape I need.

[Roadrunner]

You can also try to make a template of the area you need to foil with masking tape. I use the dollar store tape, as it's got a little less tack to it, and cut it slightly over sized. I then remove the tape template and apply it to the foil and cut out the shape I need.

That's actually a very good idea, so thanks for that. I have mostly just been using my 6" ruler, cutting the pieces a tad larger than what I really need.

[Roadrunner]

Well, I was finally able to summon the courage to attack a wheel well this afternoon. I realize this is far from stellar, but I'm OK with it. (I also had to patch a small piece, but it doesn't hardly show.) My single biggest problem seems to be that I shake like crazy (too much coffeine) and have a heck of a time, starting and stopping, then starting again where I think I left off, leaving cuts that frequently do not match. The fact that the trim is not sharply defined on this kit certainly doesn't help matters either.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

At least I'm fairly confident that a dark wash is going to help blend it all together. I tried that on a '70 Challenger T/A, and it really helped a lot.