Question about the width of vintage Johan kits

[Ace-Garageguy]

I've read and "heard" from time to time that some of the older Johan kit bodies were purposely built narrower than scale-correct (to fit in promo boxes is one reason I've encountered).

I have a Johan '61Dodge Phoenix, and the '64 Lindberg Mopar chassis units fit like they were made for each other. The body width scales to within an inch of the listed REAL car dimension.

I also recently acquired a Johan '62 Dodge Dart, and the chassis for the later Lindberg is considerably wider. The '62 Johan body scales about 1.5" narrower than the published REAL spec, so that's still not very far off.

These are all unibody cars, built on Mopar's newly designed platform. Though the factory specs show the '62 car to be about 2" narrower than its '61 brother overall, I can't see Dodge having used a different platform. The '64 Dodge, the subject of the Lindberg kits, is listed as being a little narrower overall than its '63 sibling. Of course, these differences are only a couple of millimeters in 1/25 scale, and the difference in chassis width (between the Johans and the Lindberg) is much more than that.

My initial plan was to use the Lindberg chassis to replace the blobular Johans, and do a series of fairly accurate early SS cars.

Any Mopar guys, or anyone familiar with doing these chassis swaps, please chime in.

I also have a Johan '57 Olds promo that I've "heard" is suspiciously narrow too, though I haven't measured it.

Input from guys who know these old kits well, like Mark and Art Anderson, would also be very welcome.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Mark]

My own experience with Jo-Han stuff is that, within one corporation's offerings, if they aren't 100% accurate, they are at the very least consistent.  That can't necessarily be said about AMT or MPC.  The Jo-Han '62 Plymouths and Dodges (and reissue '63 Plymouth) share a lot of parts.  The seats-molded-in interior morphed into a "one piece fits all" deal over time; early USA Oldies kits have different detail from later ones.  The '63 Plymouth reissue in the early Eighties brought a universal bench-seat bucket that was used in whatever '62 Dodges and Plymouths that were still available.

I'd guess the Lindberg Plymouth and Dodge are the "odd men out" here.  Each has its own chassis, similar to one another but not from the same tooling.  The same pattern work may have been used though.  The first version issued was the Color Me Gone Dodge, and from what I heard the kit was developed from the 1:1 "nostalgia drag" car which is a replica.  It has a number of alterations like widened rear inner fenders and a Dana 60 rear axle.  The widened inner fenders aren't tough to do on those cars; my older brother did that alteration on a '65 Belvedere.  These deviations from stock were unwittingly included in the Plymouth kit also.  I'd feel free to hack the Lindberg chassis to work with the Jo-Han bodies.  The Moebius '65 Plymouths might be worth a look too, but the Lindberg kits can be found more reasonably and aren't bad.  I bought another stock '64 Dodge at the club meeting last week for ten bucks.  It's the early version with the bench seat (blue car on the box).  It has the Leaning Tower of Power included also.  

Check the Allpar.com website regarding the development of the '62 "smaller fullsize" Plymouth and Dodge.  I seem to recall something about that platform being developed not from the earlier fullsize cars, but actually being expanded from the Valiant/Lancer underbody.

Back to the Jo-Han kits: for the most part they are consistent.  I've got that '62 Dodge 880 project sitting in a box.  The 1:1 was a rush job: '61 fullsize Dodge front clip on a '62 Chrysler body.  I did the same thing, hacking the front clip from a shattered Dodge body I fished out of a junk box at NNL East, and sticking it on a USA Oldies Chrysler body.  It fit like it should: no narrowing, no messing with either the clip or the body.  Just made the cuts and fitted the pieces together.  That's not the case if you want to stick an AMT early Mercury Comet front clip onto an AMT Ranchero body (should "bolt on"; Ford did it to make Comet station wagons) or stick a Buick Special station wagon roof onto a Corvair body.  Even their '65 Pontiac kits (Bonneville and Grand Prix) don't quite match up as they should.

[Mark]

If anything Jo-Han is compromised more so than usual, it's probably the Cadillacs and bigger Oldsmobiles.  Even then, the '56-'57 stuff is probably pretty close to correct.  It's the late Fifties stuff that would be suspect to my eyes, because those cars just got out of hand size-wise.  I should check that '58 Olds I bought not long ago.

I just remembered checking a Jo-Han/X-EL '56 Desoto against a Moebius Chrysler 300, and finding them remarkably close.  Some trimming will be needed to fit the Moebius Chrysler guts into the Desoto body to get my Indy 500 pace car, but that's because the Jo-Han Desoto body is much thicker than the Moebius Chrysler, what with over 50 years' difference between the creation of the two...

[Art Anderson]

On 3/1/2018 at 3:01 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I've read and "heard" from time to time that some of the older Johan kit bodies were purposely built narrower than scale-correct (to fit in promo boxes is one reason I've encountered).

I have a Johan '61Dodge Phoenix, and the '64 Lindberg Mopar chassis units fit like they were made for each other. The body width scales to within an inch of the listed REAL car dimension.

I also recently acquired a Johan '62 Dodge Dart, and the chassis for the later Lindberg is considerably wider. The '62 Johan body scales about 1.5" narrower than the published REAL spec, so that's still not very far off.

These are all unibody cars, built on Mopar's newly designed platform. Though the factory specs show the '62 car to be about 2" narrower than its '61 brother overall, I can't see Dodge having used a different platform. The '64 Dodge, the subject of the Lindberg kits, is listed as being a little narrower overall than its '63 sibling. Of course, these differences are only a couple of millimeters in 1/25 scale, and the difference in chassis width (between the Johans and the Lindberg) is much more than that.

My initial plan was to use the Lindberg chassis to replace the blobular Johans, and do a series of fairly accurate early SS cars.

Any Mopar guys, or anyone familiar with doing these chassis swaps, please chime in.

I also have a Johan '57 Olds promo that I've "heard" is suspiciously narrow too, though I haven't measured it.

Input from guys who know these old kits well, like Mark and Art Anderson, would also be very welcome.

Bill, keep in mind, that in the "heyday" of promotional model cars, model companies (like AMT, JoHan, and PMC) had only the "sketchiest" of reference information, as those model companies were faced with designing and tooling up promotional model cars pretty much without any possibility of measuring the real thing!  That was simply due to such as AMT, SMP JoHan and Product Miniatures (PMC) having to work with such photographs of styling mockups, and whatever renderings etc. that the Detroit Big Three etc. were willing to supply out of their styling and design studios, well before actual production of the real new cars began.  That those early model designers were able to come up with what they did achieve, should be seen, today, as miracles, perhaps even rivaling Moses' parting of the Red Sea waters!  

I can still remember viewing the archival display, within AMT Corporation's headquarters on Maple Road in Troy MI, where there were assembled promo test shots, many having chrome trim detailing that NEVER saw the light of day at the end of a production line ('55 T-Bird with Fairlane-style "Checkmark" chrome side trim anybody?--yes, at least one does exist in 1:1 today, a preproduction version!).

It must have been a frantic scene at both AMT and Johan back in the 50's, PMC in Milwaukee as well, as draftsmen and pattern-makers (back years ago, all model car kit/promo's evolved off the drawing boards to hand-carved 1:10 scale --for 1:25 scale models-- or over at Monogram, 1:12 scale (for 1:24 scale) model car kits and/or promo's.   I had some limited face time with a couple of AMT pattern makers in the mid-late 1970's, got a real appreciation of their skills, and even some of their frustrations.

Art

Edited March 5, 2018 by Art Anderson

[Jantrix]

On 3/1/2018 at 1:01 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Any Mopar guys, or anyone familiar with doing these chassis swaps, please chime in.

 

Back in my youth I built the '60 Desoto Adventurer using the the chassis from the MPC '67 Charger. It was a very simple swap, it fit perfectly, wheelbase was dead on and it made for a great hot rod. I recall no width issues.

[Ace-Garageguy]

9 hours ago, Jantrix said:

Back in my youth I built the '60 Desoto Adventurer using the the chassis from the MPC '67 Charger. It was a very simple swap, it fit perfectly, wheelbase was dead on and it made for a great hot rod. I recall no width issues.

Thanks Rob. Helpful info.

Thanks to Mark and Art too.  

[garagepunk66]

On 3/5/2018 at 7:23 AM, Jantrix said:

Back in my youth I built the '60 Desoto Adventurer using the the chassis from the MPC '67 Charger. It was a very simple swap, it fit perfectly, wheelbase was dead on and it made for a great hot rod. I recall no width issues.

+1 on this. The MPC Charger platforms were the "only game in town" back in the day for getting a more detailed chassis under a JoHan B-Body. My go-to kit was the Dukes Charger as I cared very little about the subject matter and they were often overstocked in the holiday season and on clearance afterwards! 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I just got a Moebius '65 Satellite primarily to see how well its chassis will work under the earlier model-year Johan bodies. 

Haven't had time to really check it out thoroughly...though it looks like the diff may be disappointingly under-scale.

One of the intended results:   

Edited March 7, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[JollySipper]

Bill, I'm really interested to see how the Belvedere chassis fits into a Johan body...... I have a Max Wedge build I'm making plans for........

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 3/7/2018 at 12:46 PM, JollySipper said:

Bill, I'm really interested to see how the Belvedere chassis fits into a Johan body...... I have a Max Wedge build I'm making plans for........

I have comparo pix in the camera. I'll load a batch into the computer and post here in a few days. It's not a drop-in swap, for sure.

In the meantime, I want to get a couple of unibody Mopars on the lift at the shop, take a few measurements, and photograph how the rockers blend into the underfloor.

[SfanGoch]

I test fit the "Color Me Gone" chassis under the Johan '68 Fury Police Pursuit Car body and the width matched that of the body. Lengthwise, the wheelbase was dead on perfect. The only problem was that the Lindberg chassis's wheel wells were too wide to fit the recesses in the rear seat on the interior pan. Does anyone know if the Lindberg '64 Plymouth Belvedere shares the same chassis as the other Lindberg/AMT SS Mopars; or, does it have narrower wheel wells?