Johan

[lordairgtar]

Just found out on another forum that the bank has foreclosed on the remaining assets of Johan from Mr. Okey. I do not know of the veracity of this, but I will monitor it and keep you abreast of the details. If those with other model firms can research this and maybe obtain what's left...it might be a good thing.

[Art Anderson]

Sad update, lordairgtar, if true. I am going to Indianapolis in the morning, to the Circle City Modelers show and swap. If I see Okey there, doing biz as usual, then I suspect this isn't at all true. I hope not!

Art

[Jantrix]

That's unfortunate. I do hope for the sake of the companies employees this isn't true. This is a tough time to be unemployed. However perhaps someone like Model King (whom I believe will not be able to do AMT/MPC kits for much longer) could make use of the Johan molds to keep both himself and Mr. Okey rockin and rollin.

[novadose71]

  Jantrix said:

However perhaps someone like Model King (whom I believe will not be able to do AMT/MPC kits for much longer) could make use of the Johan molds to keep both himself and Mr. Okey rockin and rollin.

Now that's a heck of an idea..

[CAL]

The sad truth of the Johan tools, is by Okey's own account is there isn't much left and what is left is in far worse shape than originally thought. He has had the tools for 8 years now, and if there was anything worth anything someone would have done something with them. Johan, under Okey, has been reduced to making a few resin copies, and that has even become seemingly hopeless. Best Resin who was doing the resin molds and casts is OB.

[Billy Kingsley]

Okey is the ONLY employee. I hope it's not true. He's put more time and effort and personal equity into this then pretty much any modeler would be hard pressed to match-guys like Dave Burkett is one of the few. I really like Okey, I make it a point to stop by and see him when I can at shows and hope it is not true!

[bobss396]

From what I saw him having to show at the NNL East, he didn't have that much to show. Johan had the most awesome offerings of Mopars at one point in time, where did all the good stuff go? It seems that he wound up with the dregs of whatever was left, a few promo style bodies and not much else.

Yesterday it was what it was, and today it is what it is. Time for us to move on.

Bob

[george 53]

Well, Mr. Okie may be a nice person, BUT I for one would never buy one of his products ever again.I purchaesd a 55 Pontiac from him in April of this year at the MCCC toy show, He told me it was a complete kit, which it was. It included the body, flat metal chassis and what was SUPPOSED to be an interior. Stupid me, after hearing what a good vendor he was, I broke one of my own rules and DIDN'T open the box to check for quality. When I got home what was sopposed to be an interior was a rectangular blob of resin that wasn't fit to use as a paperweight! the sides were at least 1/4inthick ans the floor was at least 3/8th of an inch thick. I couldn't have used it if I wanted to, and theres NO WAY to correct resin when it's that thick. In a small buisness like he has, quality should be a no.1 PRIORITY! Maybe he DIDN'T cast the resin, BUT he SHOULD have checked it BEFORE he tried to dump it on an unsuspecting customer. Sorry to be so cold hearted, But I work hard for my money and DO NOT appericiate being ripped off like I was. If thats how he runs his buisness, it doesn't need to exist!

[Eshaver]

And once again, I second Georges comments.Look, I was involved with several busineses over the years. I build primarily for myself and If I have a gripe , Ill take it to a P M . You know who you are if youve gotten a message from me too as I say what I mean, mean what I say too. I still strive to do what the bumper sticker on my tool box says: DO IT ONCE AND DO IT RIGHT KANTER AUTO SUPPLY. Do ya'all have any idea how much stuffI have purchaced from them over the years ? Do any of you want to hazard a guess? Certain Kit Vendors might want to take a look at how they do business. I wont mention his name as he knows who he is! You go George yer O K in my book!

Ed Shaver

[lordairgtar]

I just wanted to post a news item. I'm sorry i started a rant of Okey. I go home now, K Bye.

[Art Anderson]

  lordairgtar said:

Just found out on another forum that the bank has foreclosed on the remaining assets of Johan from Mr. Okey. I do not know of the veracity of this, but I will monitor it and keep you abreast of the details. If those with other model firms can research this and maybe obtain what's left...it might be a good thing.

Sadly, there are those (not you!) who will start a rumor such as this for whatever reason. I was at the Circle City Modelers contest and swap, spoke to Okey, bought some stuff from him. I asked him about the rumor, and he said emphatically, "Not True!."

Art

[Harry P.]

Whether or not "Johan" is finally going to disappear is hardly going to make a difference in the overall scheme of things.

What currently passes for "Johan" has produced virtually nothing for many years... certainly far less than the average aftermarket resin casters. I've been hearing and reading of Johan's resurrection for years now, and the bottom line is, there's been nothing! Let's face it, if Johan was ever going to re-emerge as a viable entity, it would have done so years ago. Isn't it high time to pull the plug on this one?

[Harry P.]

  lordairgtar said:

If those with other model firms can research this and maybe obtain what's left...it might be a good thing.

Don't you think that if there was anything "left" of the real Johan, the new "Johan" would have put it into production by now???

[CAL]

  harrypri said:

Don't you think that if there was anything "left" of the real Johan, the new "Johan" would have put it into production by now???

That is what I've been saying.

Look, Seville bought what was left of JoHan in the 1990s and couldn't make a go of it. In fact, it resulted in a lawsuit which they won because there wasn't enough left of the JoHan tools to make a single kit.... It's been 30years since the employees of JoHan distroyed, or lost what was left of JoHan and it's been in the second set of hands since for 8+ years. It's pretty clear that if there actually anything worth anything someone, Seville, Okey, or someone else would have produced something, but it's been 30 years and nothing ... that should tell you something. Okey himself said, if you read between the lines, there is nothing left of the orginal tools except junk, he has already stated that what was there was mostly damaged beyond resonable repair, and or missing significant parts to make work. Short of completely retooling there just isn't going to be anymore Johan - end of story.

I think Okey is just in business now to keep the urban ledge of JoHan's resurection alive, but it's about as real as Yeddie-Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster, Vampires and Wearwolves, and a three dollar bill.

[george 53]

Greg, I din't mean to go off onna rant, and I do appologise to you.But I gotta agree, If JoHan ain't dead, it looks like, for all intents and purposes,it is. To just be hoistin junk on folks is no way to do buisness! He had 3, count em, 3 kits to sell.The new lil Rambler wagon, the 55 Ponty I bought, an a 56 plymouth. If thats all he's got ,out of ALL the stuff JoHan used to have, Well, then he ain't got much. To tell folks he's still in buisness is kinda a long shot!

[lordairgtar]

On the Johan Resurrected board, someone spoke with Okey yesterday and he says it's the first time he's heard about this. Apparently, someone started a rumor and it took off. I have to agree with George 53, don't sell goofy resin cast parts that can't be fixed or used. If you want to sell the bodies, fine, those are pretty good.

[george 53]

:DWell, I do gotta agree there about the bodies beein nice! It sure looks like a 55 Pontiac! I can fix up another interior(maybe a 55 chev'll fit) But he should dump his resin caster, an just sell the bodies an chassis.Can't blame him for a lousy casting if he din't make it, BUT, he NEVER shoulda put em in with the kit in the first place. Thanks for not bein sore with me about my comments, I just felt others should know.

[Modellpularn]

It's kind of sad to hear all these rumours about Jo-Han. It's too bad the Seville people didn't pull through, since it seemed like a real serious effort. I actually visited the old place in Detroit in 1992, and it was a cool place. I have pics of the visit, that I need to make digital.... Sometime in the future I'll make an effort...

George, that's not cool to get a resin blob as an interior, sorry to hear that. I've been having my doubts about this new operation.... Bottom line is: Jo-Han is NOT was it used to be!!

[Modelmartin]

My question is this - what is the story behind the Testors HSO Releases of the S&M Cuda, Maverick/Comet and Rambler American in the 90s? Those tools must be around I would think. Second question is are the tools really that bad or are they just in a shambles like the the AMT stuff. All these years later and someone who knows what they are doing discovers all kinds of long thought lost kits still exist. What is the real story of all the Jo-han stuff? Is there anyone out there who can actually tell us what the state of Jo-Han tooling is devoid of rumors and 3rd hand stories?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Andy

[Eshaver]

Greg, Harry, Andy and everybody else, yaall go down to Irving Texas and scour around and somebody find Mr. Dennis Doty. He was a close personal friend of Mr. Hanille and he published every credible article about Johan and Seville Enterprises thats ever been produced to date. If anybody knows him personaly then I would suggest that they interview him . Denis Doty was the go to guy about any thing Johan in the day. His magazine Model Car Journal should have driven that point home. seriously , if any body has a credible story on whats left of the Johan company , beleive Mr Dennis Doty . Ed Shaver

[Harry P.]

  Modelmartin said:

My question is this - what is the story behind the Testors HSO Releases of the S&M Cuda, Maverick/Comet and Rambler American in the 90s? Those tools must be around I would think. Second question is are the tools really that bad or are they just in a shambles like the the AMT stuff. All these years later and someone who knows what they are doing discovers all kinds of long thought lost kits still exist. What is the real story of all the Jo-han stuff? Is there anyone out there who can actually tell us what the state of Jo-Han tooling is devoid of rumors and 3rd hand stories?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Andy

Obviously I don't have any "inside knowledge" of the situation, but simple common sense would indicate that if there was anything of consequence from the old JoHan tooling still around and in salvageable condition, either someone would have done it long ago, or sold the stuff to someone who was interested and able to make a go of it.

My opinion: the fact that after all these years basically nothing regarding the "resurrection" of JoHan has happened tells me that it's not going to happen.

[Art Anderson]

  Modelmartin said:

My question is this - what is the story behind the Testors HSO Releases of the S&M Cuda, Maverick/Comet and Rambler American in the 90s? Those tools must be around I would think. Second question is are the tools really that bad or are they just in a shambles like the the AMT stuff. All these years later and someone who knows what they are doing discovers all kinds of long thought lost kits still exist. What is the real story of all the Jo-han stuff? Is there anyone out there who can actually tell us what the state of Jo-Han tooling is devoid of rumors and 3rd hand stories?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Andy

Andy,

While of course, Okey isn't particularly willing to talk about the "condition" of the tooling he has, and I won't ask him. However, I do know from other sources (and some personal knowledge as well) that not many of the tools are complete, for varying reasons (including some of the rumors which have more truth than we all would like to believe, I think). In addition, JoHan tooling did apparently wind up in several hands, upon the auction of JoHan's assets now years ago.

I do know that some tooling, in particular some of the ones which were last run by Seville for Testors, the HSO series, probably are still usable, but at what cost? My understanding, from a few people who seem to know, is that JoHan was using a set of way-obsolete injection molding machines, apparently dating back to WW-II, when injection-molded plastics came into its own as a manufacturing method, for both war production and civilian goods which could be made using non-strategic, defense-needed materials. I do know, for example, that Revell-Monogram did survey some of the tooling, and backed away, for reasons best known to them. I believe also, that AMT/Ertl looked at them as well, and likewise turned down the old JoHan tooling.

Apparently, JoHan cut almost all their tooling from beryllium copper alloy, which alloy is expensive, almost to the point of "precious metal", but has some pretty serious environmental and OSHA concerns, particularly when ground, or machined. AMT/Ertl, when running some of the ESCI tooling they owned (remember, AMT/Ertl bought the Italian firm ESCI in the mid-1980's, and ran some of their stuff in Dyersville), had some beryllium copper aircraft tools that had been cut in Italy by ESCI, they even displayed some of those tools, open, for their famed "Factory Tours" in the 1990's (a buddy of mine and I took that tour in July, 1994). Apparently though, even with the health concerns from this alloy, it has pretty much been a rather valuable commodity in industry--bringing a premium price at the scrapyard. So, the stories of disgruntled JoHan workers stealing small, concealable sections of tooling and selling them at nearby scrap dealers probably have some truth to them.

But, in the end, the costs associated with contracting an injection-molding job shop, or a larger producer, to make a production run of even such tooling as does exist in complete form has been prohibitive, at least in this country. Also, given that with only a couple of exceptions, JoHan's subject matter was seldom part of the mainstream, where the marketplace was, and is, concerned, selling such model kits in any sort of reasonable time frame might well be problematic.

I suspect that anyone who remembers Walmart stores from the mid-70's into the early 1980's, when that company was beginning its transition from small town and rural variety stores, to start challenging KMart and others, will recall that Walmart Stores actually carried the complete JoHan line of reissued and ressurected model car kits, including the legendary "Gold Cup" series. Those stores weren't seen in major cities yet, unlike today, but were in larger county seat towns, spreading out from Arkansas. I suspect it may well have been Walmart's continuous restocking of that line for perhaps 7-8 years, that made the USA Oldies a viable product line such as it was in the 80's. But that was then, this is now.

Art

[CAL]

Here is some exact verbatim from Jo-Han Models LLC FAQs.

"Several molds have pieces missing and or damaged. We were told by many that former Jo-Han employees, that disgruntled employees took mold pieces out of the building to sell for scrap."

"Any new tool would be a major investment in both time and money. New tools are at least 3 years away."

"Due to a dispute with a molder, we have had to drastically cut STYRENE and ABS prodcution. As a temoprary solution, we have added many resin parts."

"Because some buyser failed to read or failed to believe the preceding caveat (buyer beware), it has regretfully become necessary to begin deleting some resin items from the catalog."

Essencially what is left for sale is some decals, a few clear sets, a couple resin tubs and tires for Promos.

The same two kits to be released soon are the same two kits that have been there for 4 years. "Due to many complaints by people who do not understand the labor intensive nature of resin casting these will NOT be available on the website..."

"July 30 2005"

"Delivery dates not guaranteed."

It doesn't sound like the makings of a very strong company but rather a company in big trouble, and if they haven't alienated the few customers they have left I'd be surprised.

Edited October 26, 2008 by CAL

[Aaronw]

Out of curiosity what is Okey's prior experience with the plastic model industry? Is he someone from the industry who would be familiar with tooling and such to recognize what is and is not usable, or just a fan who bought the remnants of Johan and may not really have any idea what is ready to go, can be salvaged and what is junk?

The impression I've developed is he is someone who's heart is in the right place but is completely overwhelmed by the task of raising Johan from the grave. I had hoped he would at the least team up with a solid resin caster so resin copies of the Johan kits would be available. The Johan kits I've seen look like re-popping them in resin would be no big deal as they were pretty simple to start with, and presumably with the Johan name attached licensing wouldn't become an issue.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Aaronw

[SteveG]

  Modelmartin said:

My question is this - what is the story behind the Testors HSO Releases of the S&M Cuda, Maverick/Comet and Rambler American in the 90s? Those tools must be around I would think. Second question is are the tools really that bad or are they just in a shambles like the the AMT stuff. All these years later and someone who knows what they are doing discovers all kinds of long thought lost kits still exist. What is the real story of all the Jo-han stuff? Is there anyone out there who can actually tell us what the state of Jo-Han tooling is devoid of rumors and 3rd hand stories?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Andy

Without revealing anything confidential I can say that the old Johan tooling Testors used for the HSO releases are not lost but are unfortunately in need of some significant repairs. There was some discussion last year at this time on what to do with them, last I heard they're still sitting in limbo so to speak.

All this recent talk about them has got me thinking on the best way to get at least a couple of them repaired and back on the shelves. I'd even be willing to stick my neck out and push to see it happen if it's still possible but which ones. My gut says go for the "Cuda and the Maverick but If I make the wrong suggestion and they sell poorly ......well I just don't want to ruin a good thing if you know what I mean.

Any suggestions .......?

Steve