Smart-Resins Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I am looking at a table top CNC lathe milling machine and would like to talk to someone who has one. Does anyone here own one? Thanks. Jody
george 53 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Jody, talk to Treehugger Dave, he just showed us his new "toys" an I do B'leve he got him a lathe! At least it LOOKS like one.
CAL Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Jody, talk to Treehugger Dave, he just showed us his new "toys" an I do B'leve he got him a lathe! At least it LOOKS like one. Don't think it's CNC though just a Lathe and mill. A CNC is in whole nother ball park. I have looked around at checked them out. I am planning on getting a small machine shop set up this year myself. But it wont be a CNC, A Sherline CNC ready mill and lathe is $3100 + a PC + software +++ I can see it being an easy 5k when all said and done. I did physically look and Harbor Freights Mill and Lathe which is probably what I will get for about $700 set up. It was much better that I thought it was going to be, however, I still have reservations about durabilty and accuracy. The alternative is a Sherline set up and the bare minium is going to be $1200 for a mill and lathe without any attachments or tooling. Or if I could find an old shcool unimate I'd snap one of those up. I keep looking but haven't found one. Edited February 20, 2009 by CAL
Smart-Resins Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 This is what I was eyeing as a possability? It is very pricey indeed! However if I get what I should for taxes, I could afford it. Since I am layed off indefinetly, I keep thinking about ways of getting a home based business that could make money. Mnay ideas. With this, there is a vast array of possabilities. Thanks. Jody http://www.sherlinedirect.com/index.cfm?fu...;Product_ID=190
CAL Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) This is what I was eyeing as a possability? It is very pricey indeed! However if I get what I should for taxes, I could afford it. Since I am layed off indefinetly, I keep thinking about ways of getting a home based business that could make money. Mnay ideas. With this, there is a vast array of possabilities. Thanks. Jody http://www.sherlinedirect.com/index.cfm?fu...;Product_ID=190 I'd lay it down if I had the dough. If you were looking at it do some kind of business venture that is the way to go. Pretty much everyone I know likes their Sherline. I don't know any with a CNC, but their basic lathe and mill they like. If it were me I'd do the $3085.00 which includes all the stepper motors for the CNC package and build my own PC. I wonder how much the software is. I know I could build twice the PC they are offering for 1/2. Looks like it's boiling down to $1700 for the PC and software in that package. Something to consider. Edited February 20, 2009 by CAL
Pete J. Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I bought my Sherline Lathe about 8 months ago and absolutely love it. More than the lathe was the reference material that comes with it. Every tool and accessory is laid out with instructions in the catalog that you get. The machine is absolutely precise- I can easily cut diameters to .001" A lot of useful accessories also. Of all of them I suggest that you get the "zero reset hand wheels. Huge time and brain saver. I bought mine through Paul at Thunder valley and he gave me a better deal than I could get from Sherline and I live about 15 miles from the factory. One other piece that might be worth considering in these tough times, Sherline is 100% made in Vista, California(well the motors come from Connecticut). Shop at home. Pete J.
MR BIGGS Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I am looking at a table top CNC lathe milling machine and would like to talk to someone who has one. Does anyone here own one? Thanks. Jody I was going to spend a few grand on the pacage deal from Sherline, but one of my buddys who has been doing cnc told me about this one. he say's they are both the same except the price is a few hundred dollars cheaper. Things to look for when buying a hobby lathe. In my opion the lathe that Micro Marks sell is the best for the money. The one sold at Harbor Freight sells is about 20% cheaper and 100% shittier . The one Shoreline sells is nice put over priced and small. You could get the Lathe and mill from Micro Marks along with tooling for less. You can thread on the Micro Mark and it has the longest bed and metal geared head, most of the other lathes have plastic gears. The things to look for is if the lathe has a compound , so you can cut tapers . Also check the back lash in the cross slide , saddle, and compound leadscrews. I have used a few of the products Micro Marks sells and have been pleased with them. Check out this web sight to compare lathes. http://www.mini-lathe.com/
MR BIGGS Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 These are the one's to get if you are going to pick them up. These are what im going to get. http://www.micromark.com/MICROLUX-7-x14-HI...LATHE,8176.html http://www.micromark.com/MICROLUX-MILLING-MACHINE,8102.html
CAL Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I was going to spend a few grand on the pacage deal from Sherline, but one of my buddys who has been doing cnc told me about this one. he say's they are both the same except the price is a few hundred dollars cheaper. Things to look for when buying a hobby lathe. In my opion the lathe that Micro Marks sell is the best for the money. The one sold at Harbor Freight sells is about 20% cheaper and 100% shittier . The one Shoreline sells is nice put over priced and small. You could get the Lathe and mill from Micro Marks along with tooling for less. You can thread on the Micro Mark and it has the longest bed and metal geared head, most of the other lathes have plastic gears. The things to look for is if the lathe has a compound , so you can cut tapers . Also check the back lash in the cross slide , saddle, and compound leadscrews. I have used a few of the products Micro Marks sells and have been pleased with them. Check out this web sight to compare lathes. http://www.mini-lathe.com/ It is quite a more strech than that. In fact is more than the Sherline. $639.00 at Micromark. $575.00 for the little Sherline $449.00 for the Harbor Freight that looks just like the Micromark one $299.00 for the Harbor Freight mini.
Guest Davkin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 All the budget lathes and mills come from the Sieg factory in China and are all virtually identical. Micro-Mark may have Sieg do some special things for their lathes but the quality is identical to the Harbor Freight machines, in otherwords, "hit and miss, most often miss". I owned a Harbor Frieght 7X10 lathe and Micro Mill and would not recommend them to a beginning machinist unless you have an experienced machinist friend that's willing to spend some time with you, tuning the machines and teaching you how to use them. These are not "out of the box" machines, they need some tuning to make them work well no matter who you buy them from. LittleMachineShop.com offers a service where they tune up the machines for you, but once it's all said and done and you purchase all the equivalent accessories you really haven't saved that much money and what you did save you traded a bunch of hassle for it. The only advantage I see with the Sieg machines over the Sherline is they are heavier duty and therefore can handle bigger materials but if all you are doing is model cars that's not a benefit and can actually be a problem. After my experience I can tell you that unless you're a real good machinist doing really small parts on those Sieg machines feels rather clumsy. Also the Sieg machines are real heavy. If you have limited space and need to put your machines away when not using them then you definately don't want to use a Sieg machine, the Sherline machines weight about 1/3 as much. There is one advantage to buying a Sieg machine from Micro Mark, they have great customer service, but do you really want to have to ship a 150 lb crate back to them on warranty? Sherline machines are made specifically for the scale modeling hobby and work perfect right out of the box according to everyone I know that's owned one. If I ever buy another lathe and/or mill for modeling it will definately be a Sherline. David
Smart-Resins Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Thank you all for the responses. Yes, I have a built PC here that just needs a new hard drive(went bad durring our 800 mile treck north) So getting the base package deal plus software I am sure would be the better way of going. My alternative that I am looking at is a laser cutter. I am weighing those options as well since I can cut and engrave it appears and for about half the price I am looking at for these? But I can say I have been wanting a lather/mill for a few years now!! LOL. Jody
SoCalCarCulture Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Thank you all for the responses. Yes, I have a built PC here that just needs a new hard drive(went bad durring our 800 mile treck north) So getting the base package deal plus software I am sure would be the better way of going. My alternative that I am looking at is a laser cutter. I am weighing those options as well since I can cut and engrave it appears and for about half the price I am looking at for these? But I can say I have been wanting a lather/mill for a few years now!! LOL. Jody Jody - Are you fluent in CAD programs? That is the real key to making the equipment functional, create the drawings for the projects and the machinery will cut it. A good friend of mine is an Architectural Model Builder and has used a laser cutter since they were first applied to this business. SJS used to make a Shasta trailer kit using this technology probably 10 or more years ago. Take a look at how the Model Railroad aftermarket has applied laser cutting technology. Good luck with this!
Art Anderson Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Thank you all for the responses. Yes, I have a built PC here that just needs a new hard drive(went bad durring our 800 mile treck north) So getting the base package deal plus software I am sure would be the better way of going. My alternative that I am looking at is a laser cutter. I am weighing those options as well since I can cut and engrave it appears and for about half the price I am looking at for these? But I can say I have been wanting a lather/mill for a few years now!! LOL. Jody Jody, I just got finished putting my almost 30yr old Sherline lathe back into operation (needed a heart transplant, after the original solid state AC speed control conked out, so replaced speed control with their current digital speed control and constant torque DC motor), and am still amazed at the accuracy, the close tolerances that can be achieved with it after all these years. In my never-to-be-humble opinion, even my early Sherline beats anything that Harbor Freight, or Micro-Mark sells, hands down! I've scoped out those Chinese low-end lathes and mills on several occasions, and frankly, for doing the fine work, small parts that we modelers like, they are little more than expensive boat anchors (things like excessive runout, sloppy bearings, and an apparent lack of any broad range of accessories for them. One of the neater things about Sherline, particularly for the modeler, are its features: The headstock rotates for easy setups when cutting tapers, for example. Both self-centering 3-jaw, and independent 4-jaw chucks are readily available. Same with screw thread cutting attachments; their list of possibilities is simply EXTENSIVE. In addition, if one does not want to spring for the cost of a free-standing vertical mill, no problem! Sherline sells the attachments necessary to convert the lathe to a vertical mill. Perhaps the best accessory they make for milling is a screw-thread adjusted indexing head, which will work in both horizontal AND vertical axes--perfect for making say, wire wheels (indexing and drilling the rims and hubs, this head dials accurately to one-half degree increments). Sure, you will lay out more money for a Sherline than for any of the others (except of course, for Unimat--and those are EXPENSIVE!), but the difference in price is well worth the extra $$. And, in the bargain, technical assistance is as far away as an email or a toll-free phone call. Now, as for cost, say CNC vs the parts you might make: In order to determine the dollar viability of such a setup for making parts for sale--you really should consider the price per part you might be able to charge, along with a reasonable sales volume of those parts. Consider that you, in order to come out not just even, but ahead of the game, need to be able to amortize such a machine in fairly short order--I think the maximum depreciation schedule for a machine such as this is 5 years--that's a portion of the depreciation each year over a 5-year period--check with an accountant to be sure. Now, obviously, the more parts you can run and sell in that given period of time, the less money per part you need to charge back to recoup your investment on the equipment, and that is before you factor in your time, plus a profit percentage. Now, if one looks at the model car aftermarket, there really hasn't been a successful, long-running line of machined parts (much beyond a few engine fittings) that has ever come about. The closest might be Machined Auto Specialties (MAS), and in that, only their wheel rims and hubs are machined, all else is photoetched, and even that has been a tough go for them over time, I think. It seems to me that the best use for a lathe and mill is for mastering parts for resin-casting. I did this with some success with my '35 and '37 Ford 1.5 ton conversions, and my 1-ton dually wheel/tire sets. Beyond that, I made several component parts for resin kits that I couldn't dig up from some other source, but then, not even that much. I want to see you make a small fortune, but I sure don't want to see you having started with a large fortune with which to do so; but I would suggest that in considering machine tools, look at all of them, and go for the best quality you can get away with--you are talking about "betting the ranch" here, by your own admission. Art
E St. Kruiser50 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I am looking at a table top CNC lathe milling machine and would like to talk to someone who has one. Does anyone here own one? Thanks. Jody Hi Jody Sounds like what your looking for is what I have a goal for in a few years, but want to get what I have up and running, upgraded a bit with a Digital read Out System, afew more cutting tools and attachment, and different screw system for the cross-feed on my milling machine. I'm a little rusty and need to get my skills and "Rythem" functioning properly again after a few years of "Retirement" . The system I have in mind is a table-top, 4 axis CNC Machining Center, for about "5 Grand" with the software, but you have to supply the computor extra. If you really want to step up, there are CNC Lazer Tracking Systems that give feed-back to the computor as it follows the machining operation, and makes any micro adjustments as it machines. Pretty cool. Table top also. Both take up about an 18"X24" space and are extremely accurate, but no way close to being for a "Novis", as you need basic and advanced machining skill and understanding of metal processing, and proper handling, true even with the basic machines you are considering. No matter what you choose as your first machines, you, or anyone, deciding to buy machinery, should definetly consider including in their finances and time schedule, a clas or two on maching basics and safety, because these are all dangerous pieces of equipment, even the small one's, and can cause severe damage to any part of your body by inadvertantly and unknowingly doing something that will harm you or someone to near to what you are doing . It happens quite often. Anyway, good luck on findind what you're looking for - dave
Guest Davkin Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Actually, I think I'll wait until high quality 3D stereolithography machines become affordable for the home user. I don't think the day is far off when those machines will actually be as cheap if not cheaper than a complete Sherline setup let alone one that's fully CNC equipped. David
CAL Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Actually, I think I'll wait until high quality 3D stereolithography machines become affordable for the home user. I don't think the day is far off when those machines will actually be as cheap if not cheaper than a complete Sherline setup let alone one that's fully CNC equipped. David Today it is about 3k for a Sherline CNC and 30K for a 3D printer. still need a PC and software for either app. Edited February 20, 2009 by CAL
E St. Kruiser50 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Bye the way I was a machinist/ tool maker for 20 year's. All the basic extra's you will need like collet's, cutter's, lathe set up tools, quick change if you like, machinist tool box, calipers, and micrometers for measuring, height gauge, granite lay-out table, angle blocks, clamps several different vises, rotary table and accessories, different size chucks for your lathe, etc, etc, etc, can add an extra $2000 or more, plus about $1500 for a new computor, AND THEN YOUR MACHINE'S, and setting up a space where they can be used, ALL COST MONEY!!!. Also you'll need a drill press and a bench-top band saw, and bench grinder for making and sharpening your different cutter's for the lathe, for cutting all your metals and drilling in them. Hope this doesn't over-whelm you, but it's better for you and other's here to know all this stuff before you get buried in it, and can't afford to move forward . Remember - MACHINING ISN'T AN INSTANT "PLUG- PLAY" LIKE A NINTENDO OR GAMEBOY , but it sure can be done, and be rewarding and enjoyable, if you have the patience, and are willing to accept a learning curve. Edited February 20, 2009 by Treehugger Dave
old-hermit Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Actually, I think I'll wait until high quality 3D stereolithography machines become affordable for the home user. I don't think the day is far off when those machines will actually be as cheap if not cheaper than a complete Sherline setup let alone one that's fully CNC equipped. David The day has arrived David. http://widgets.nbc.com/o/47f1317f105123ad/...ba4377d3bfd6c81 .
CAL Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 The day has arrived David. http://widgets.nbc.com/o/47f1317f105123ad/...ba4377d3bfd6c81 . Oh yeah, you can get a 3D printer, but it's $30,000.00 for the printer. no scanner pc or software. 10X more than a Sherline CNC.
Art Anderson Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Bye the way I was a machinist/ tool maker for 20 year's. All the basic extra's you will need like collet's, cutter's, lathe set up tools, quick change if you like, machinist tool box, calipers, and micrometers for measuring, height gauge, granite lay-out table, angle blocks, clamps several different vises, rotary table and accessories, different size chucks for your lathe, etc, etc, etc, can add an extra $2000 or more, plus about $1500 for a new computor, AND THEN YOUR MACHINE'S, and setting up a space where they can be used, ALL COST MONEY!!!. Also you'll need a drill press and a bench-top band saw, and bench grinder for making and sharpening your different cutter's for the lathe, for cutting all your metals and drilling in them. Hope this doesn't over-whelm you, but it's better for you and other's here to know all this stuff before you get buried in it, and can't afford to move forward . Remember - MACHINING ISN'T AN INSTANT "PLUG- PLAY" LIKE A NINTENDO OR GAMEBOY , but it sure can be done, and be rewarding and enjoyable, if you have the patience, and are willing to accept a learning curve. All true of course, but I think some of what you suggest is a bit overkill for machining for scale model parts. For example, when making say, an axle housing, a wheel, a brake drum, that sort of thing, for what is essentially a static model, a micrometer really isn't necessary, but a decent dial caliper sure is--the tolerances for a model car that isn't going to run just aren't that tight. As for lathe chucks, again we are talking about scale model parts, not high-precision industrial tooling or production parts needing a wide variety--if nothing else, the swing of a Sherline or similar miniature lathe isn't that large, their 3-jaw, perhaps their 4-jaw, even their Jacobs chucks will work for 99.9% of all scale model machining. Even the now-retired, legendary Gerald Wingrove (he of those magnificent 1/15 scale scratchbuilt masterpiece miniature cars) used a Unimat 7, which dated from the middle 1970's, with NO CNC, and no more sophisticated attachments than you might find in a well-equipped high school metal shop (see his various books that he wrote on his profession). As I think I alluded to before in this thread, CNC, all the modern rapid prototyping stuff and technology is neat, but really overkill for what we do, frankly--both in price AND complexity. Even the tooling masters for the model kits we love to build is STILL done the old fashioned way (although the Chinese pattern makers like using ordinary styrene for making tooling mockups for model cars, and the Japanese at say, Tamiya still use wood for body patterns), given the low investment in equipment needed compared to high-tech, and the emphasis on as much the artistry rather than the science of it all. And pretty much that is the way of the model car aftermarket industry. Also, one simply has to consider not only the per-part unit cost to manufacture (and that is in both labor and materials) AND the amortization of any and all equipment used to make such aftermarket parts. Were price no object, ceiling unlimited, we wouldn't be having much of this discussion, and I wouldn't be making these comments now. However, there is a limit to what modelers will pay for aftermarket stuff, be they complete resin kits, body shells, conversion parts or body sections, or detail parts, pure and simple. Most are likely unaware that Don Holthaus was a tool and die guy before he went into resin casting, for example. However, very little in the way of machine-created masters show up in his product line, beyond wheels and tires. The legendary Chris Etzel of Etzel's Speed Classics (whom I have known since he was about 3' tall) did all the mastering of his fabulous Indy cars (and before them, his Medallion Models series of 1/48 scale aircraft transkits) by two methods--Sherline Mill and Lathe (with all the appropriate attachments for what he was doing), and the time proven, tried and true "hand and eye coordinated with knives, files, Dremel and sandpaper" method. It's all in the artistry, when you get down to the bottom line--not micrometer accuracy, and to do that, a learning curve that doesn't really need CNC to accomplish. Art
CAL Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Every time the subject comes up I read all I can. As one who is in the market for a small machine shop in the near future it sure isn't any clearer than the first day....
old-hermit Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Oh yeah, you can get a 3D printer, but it's $30,000.00 for the printer. no scanner pc or software. 10X more than a Sherline CNC. In less than 15 minutes on Google I found everything you need for less than $18000.00. https://www.nextengine.com/indexSecure.htm http://www10.aeccafe.com/nbc/articles/view...rticleid=645150 As fast as technology developes these days by the time you save enough money for your machine shop you could have enough to buy this instead. You could also buy just the scanner and contract out the printing. . Edited February 20, 2009 by old-hermit
Guest Davkin Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 Who needs a scanner? I know how to use Autodesk Inventor, (It's my job most of the day every day!) and would just use that or a similar program to design the parts and send the files direct to the 3D printer. Yes, it still is quite expensive but the price comes down and the quality goes up every year. That does bring up an issue. Art makes a great point in that it's not so much about the machine as it is the craftsman. However, if I can design a perfect part on my computer and print out out perfectly in a 3D printer where's the craftsmanship in that? Yes, it still needs to be painted but compared to making the part by hand that's a minor thing. Currently the lower end 3D machines make a part that's a bit rough, so there would be some cleanup involved, but I'm sure the quality will be such that soon enough it will be very easy to produce parts with a 3D printer marketed for home use that require virtually no cleanup. In fact, in ten or so years we may not be buying plastic kits off a shelf at all but rather files to print out on our own or a store's printer. It will be very interesting to see what it's like to have virtually no limitations to static modeling yet no longer have the craftsmanship of hand made parts. I'm sure there will be hold outs for a long time, but will their highly crafted hand made models, (though flawed of course) be revered and held in high regard, (as a true artist's work should be.) or scoffed at as a waste of time? David
Smart-Resins Posted February 21, 2009 Author Posted February 21, 2009 All very interesting points indeed! I have minimally used a wood lathe. I know what it feels like to angle a chisle the wrong direction!! No farther comments needed on that one! As for metal work, not very much in that. Its like with the laser cutter. It can do wonders. However I would need CoralDraw or a top grade photoshop. Now I used to use autocad many years ago, but I am scared of the idea of learning new sophisticated programs! There are other things like other tools, stock ect. It may just be out of my reach still. However I am content on the idea of starting a home based business that I would like to entwine with my hobbies! So I will continue to search and research!! Jody
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