'51 Fleetline windshield issue

[customline]

I'm looking for some input from someone who has succeeded in correcting the windshield issue or has maybe, done something on another kit with a  similar issue.  I can do the work but I don't know if it's worth the risk of ruining a kit I had been hunting for a long time. I want to build this kit as a factory stock example. I could settle for what AMT has provided and be unhappy with the result, knowing how badly misshapen the windshield is. Its supposed to be a scale model after all.  The backlight isn't right either. I built the Bel Air as a chopped-top custom some years ago and never thought anything about this issue. Now I need to deal with it. It bothers me a lot. The way the windshield opening was molded makes it somewhat difficult to make the corrections; its not just the top corner radii but the deep inset of the "glass" (look at the center divider). For those who are not aware of it, the photos below illustrate the problem. If anyone has been able to correct this issue, I would appreciate your input. Thanks for looking.

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

Personally, I would remove the trim around the window and the center divider, correct the corner radius’s with some plastic fillers.

While finishing this correction, I would make the opening about 1 mm larger on the top and sides

Once the opening is where you want, use some thin styrene strips or half round for your trim, and position it so that it over hangs the opening slightly, just enough so that you’ll have enough of the trim exposed on the inside of the body to fasten the glass to.

Use the same trim material to make the divider.

Once you’re ready for the glass, cut the glass from thin clear plastic sheet and carefully glue it to the inside of the trim, not the body.

The glass could be taped in place, and some clear glue of some sort could be flowed into the seam between the glass and body for extra strength.

If this is all too involved for you, and you can live with the corner radius, you could just carefully thin the body around the inside of the opening and the divider with a Dremel and reamer bit and sand paper, and then scrap the kit glass and use thin cleat sheet plastic.

Personally, I almost never use kit glass anymore if avoidable

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yup...the way-too-deep "inset" of the glass is the primary problem. I corrected it when I built my fastback '50 Olds using the Chevy Fleetline roof, but my photos of that aren't currently available.

It's not that hard to shave the openings from the inside using a Dremel and hand files, sanding, etc., and leave the right amount of depth. Get the "glass" opening to the right depth, then make new clear parts to fit the revised openings, and arrange something they can 'snap" into on the pillars. It's kinda brain surgery, but not.

Correcting the front will be similar, but will require removal and replacement of the wipers, and also will require substitution of "glass" cut from clear styrene or PET.

And as Steve notes, the corner radius of the kit windshield is indeed too small, and should be corrected for best appearance, but just getting the glass out of the kit "hole" will make a vast visual improvement.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[customline]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Personally, I would remove the trim around the window and the center divider, correct the corner radius’s with some plastic fillers.

While finishing this correction, I would make the opening about 1 mm larger on the top and sides

Once the opening is where you want, use some thin styrene strips or half round for your trim, and position it so that it over hangs the opening slightly, just enough so that you’ll have enough of the trim exposed on the inside of the body to fasten the glass to.

Use the same trim material to make the divider.

Once you’re ready for the glass, cut the glass from thin clear plastic sheet and carefully glue it to the inside of the trim, not the body.

The glass could be taped in place, and some clear glue of some sort could be flowed into the seam between the glass and body for extra strength.

If this is all too involved for you, and you can live with the corner radius, you could just carefully thin the body around the inside of the opening and the divider with a Dremel and reamer bit and sand paper, and then scrap the kit glass and use thin cleat sheet plastic.

Personally, I almost never use kit glass anymore if avoidable

 

 

 

Steve

Steve, I was hoping for your opinion on this. What you suggested is exactly how I envisioned it. I needed a second opinion and I've your work and respect it highly... i think we all know about that.

I know this is a surgical situation  but I think I'm up to it.  I just needed affirmation.  Thank you!

[Can-Con]

I went in a different direction with mine.

First, I scribed around the existing trim on both windshield and back glass. I made sure it was reasonably deep.

Then I filed and sanded the trim flush with the body. This took care of most of the thickness of the trim. I also slightly beveled the trim on the back window as I had planned to cut down the glass and fit it in from the outside.

I never really noticed the radius of the top corners of the windshield before.

[customline]

19 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yup...the way-too-deep "inset" of the glass is the primary problem. I corrected it when I built my fastback '50 Olds using the Chevy Fleetline roof, but my photos of that aren't currently available.

It's not that hard to shave the openings from the inside using a Dremel and hand files, sanding, etc., and leave the right amount of depth. Get the "glass" opening to the right depth, then make new clear parts to fit the revised openings, and arrange something they can 'snap" into on the pillars. It's kinda brain surgery, but not.

Correcting the front will be similar, but will require removal and replacement of the wipers, and also will require substitution of "glass" cut from clear styrene or PET.

And as Steve notes, the corner radius of the kit windshield is indeed too small, and should be corrected for best appearance, but just getting the glass out of the kit "hole" will make a vast visual improvement.

I'm really glad I caught you two for help on this. I respect the opinions of both you and Steve. I will try to follow your suggestions as well as I can. Thank you!

[Ace-Garageguy]

16 minutes ago, customline said:

I'm really glad I caught you two for help on this. I respect the opinions of both you and Steve. I will try to follow your suggestions as well as I can. Thank you!

Here's another thought that Can Con's post triggered.

The real car's window trim doesn't stand as proud of the body as the kit's rendition, so scribing around it, to save its location, then filing most of it off...as well as thinning the depth of the opening from the backside, as well as correcting the too-small corner radii...all that would be required to get it really really right.

I also think, after looking at your photos again, that the windshield opening just might be a tick too tall, and thinning it from the backside may exaggerate the problem. At that point, you'd need to add styrene strip to the top of the opening to bring it down a bit, and then re-scribe the trim.

I had a somewhat similar mess crop up on my bullet-nose diecast Studebaker conversion for the Paris to Peking community build. I snuk up on the fix for the driver's side, but never finished the passenger side. I have to say it did make a big difference in the look of the model (if you compared the two sides) but it turned out to be much more of a PITA than I'd initially thought.

EDIT: If I were going to do the Fleetline windshield today, first thing I'd find is a scalable clear profile shot of one, and very carefully analyze the relative heights of the windshield and side glass.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

10 minutes ago, customline said:

I'm really glad I caught you two for help on this. I respect the opinions of both you and Steve. I will try to follow your suggestions as well as I can. Thank you!

I am happy to help. 

It won't be something that you can accomplish in a couple of hours, and will be one of those improvements that most people won't be able to quite put their finger on, but as you know, when something bugs you, you're not getting it out of your head until you address it.

Good luck!

 

 

 

Steve

[customline]

5 minutes ago, Can-Con said:

I went in a different direction with mine.

First, I scribed around the existing trim on both windshield and back glass. I made sure it was reasonably deep.

Then I filed and sanded the trim flush with the body. This took care of most of the thickness of the trim. I also slightly beveled the trim on the back window as I had planned to cut down the glass and fit it in from the outside.

I never really noticed the radius of the top corners of the windshield before.

Yeah, I'm kinda sorry I did notice it. You can't un-ring a bell. (The color on that Chevy, btw, is awesome. Your special mix?) Once you know it doesn't look right, you're kinda screwed. I make a habit of Bing-ing pix of projects upcoming. The actual box art was what tipped me off. It just didn't seem quite right. I remember these cars because I was born in '52. They were everywhere while I was growing up. The overall shape of the  windshield and backlight didn't match my subconscious memory. So I pursued it. And now...I gotta do what I gotta do ?. Thanks for your interest, Steve.

[Can-Con]

26 minutes ago, customline said:

Yeah, I'm kinda sorry I did notice it. You can't un-ring a bell. (The color on that Chevy, btw, is awesome. Your special mix?) Once you know it doesn't look right, you're kinda screwed. I make a habit of Bing-ing pix of projects upcoming. The actual box art was what tipped me off. It just didn't seem quite right. I remember these cars because I was born in '52. They were everywhere while I was growing up. The overall shape of the  windshield and backlight didn't match my subconscious memory. So I pursued it. And now...I gotta do what I gotta do ?. Thanks for your interest, Steve.

No problem. I could live with the corners but no way the depth. IIRC, I think I had planned to mount the windshield from the outside also but cut it too small and put the kit back in the box. I have replacements now and have been thinking about revisiting it.

The color is actually a nail polish called "toad" but I had forgot to paint the back bumper filler panel so now I'd have to try matching it as I originally painted it around 20 years ago. 

Yea, I like to play "the long game". LOL?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Can-Con

[NOBLNG]

These easily made tools may be of help if you want to re-scribe the trim and mount a windshield on the inside. I made up these pointy scribers for deepening the trim lines evenly. The scrapers I’ve used to put a recess on the inside for a glass mounting channel. Made from s/s welding rod and just a coat hanger.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by NOBLNG

[customline]

7 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Here's another thought that Can Con's post triggered.

The real car's window trim doesn't stand as proud of the body as the kit's rendition, so scribing around it, to save its location, then filing most of it off...as well as thinning the depth of the opening from the backside, as well as correcting the too-small corner radii...all that would be required to get it really really right.

I also think, after looking at your photos again, that the windshield opening just might be a tick too tall, and thinning it from the backside may exaggerate the problem. At that point, you'd need to add styrene strip to the top of the opening to bring it down a bit, and then re-scribe the trim.

I had a somewhat similar mess crop up on my bullet-nose diecast Studebaker conversion for the Paris to Peking community build. I snuk up on the fix for the driver's side, but never finished the passenger side. I have to say it did make a big difference in the look of the model, but it turned out to me much more of a PITA than i'd initially thought.

EDIT: If I were going to do the Fleetline windshield today, first thing I'd find is a scalable clear profile shot of one, and very carefully analyze the relative heights of the windshield and side glass.

 

Now it's getting complicated. ?.....thanks, Ace.

[customline]

6 minutes ago, Can-Con said:

Mo problem. I could live with the corners but no way the depth. IIRC, I think I had planned to mount the windshield from the outside also but cut it too small and put the kit back in the box. I have replacements now and have been thinking about revisiting it.

The color is actually a nail polish called "toad" but I had forgot to paint the back bumper filler panel so now I'd have to try matching it as I originally painted it around 20 years ago. 

Yea, I like to play "the long game". LOL?

LMFAO ?

[customline]

I just want to add this: my perception of the shape across the top of both the windshield and the backlight is very slightly curved...."crowned". Not straight. What say y'all?

Edited November 18, 2023 by customline

[customline]

Finding an angle on this is difficult. Most photos available on the net are not like what I need

[Ace-Garageguy]

27 minutes ago, customline said:

I just want to add this: my perception of the shape across the top of both the windshield and the backlight is very slightly curved...."crowned". Not straight. What say y'all?

Yup. And you'll find that the vast majority of lines on cars aren't straight anyway. 

Some design wizard pointed out to me, many moons ago, that dead-straight lines on complex 3D objects like cars often tend to look like they sag in the middle. His illustrations gave me one of those "AHA!!!" moments that you can't ever unlearn.

EDIT: It's the same reason the columns on the Parthenon are very slightly "bulged" in the middle...not straight.

Bottom line: the subtleties and nuance of real-car design that kit designers often miss, misinterpret, or get entirely wonky, are things that some folks just can't live with, and there's plenty needing to be corrected to get these AMT Chebby kits to look right to anyone blessed (or cursed) with "an eye".

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[stitchdup]

Does the crown of the roof on the 1/1 come further down the screen? the kit seems flatter above it and the kit pillars look to be a lot thicker than the 1/1 down the sides

[customline]

6 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yup. And you'll find that the vast majority of lines on cars aren't straight anyway. 

Some design wizard pointed out to me, many moons ago, that dead-straight lines on complex 3D objects like cars often tend to look like they sag in the middle. His illustrations gave me one of those "AHA!!!" moments that you can't ever unlearn.

Bottom line: the subtleties and nuance of real-car design that kit designers often miss, misinterpret, or get entirely wonky, are things that some folks just can't live with, and there's plenty needing to be corrected to get these AMT Chebby kits to look right to anyone blessed (or cursed) with "an eye".

Amen. ?

[StevenGuthmiller]

Thanks to you Jim, I couldn't get this idea out of my head until I went into the shop and doodled around with it.

 

Actually I discovered that with the method that I described, thinning the body would actually be detrimental.

That thickness will give you more surface to mount the glass.

 

I just sanded off the external trim, glued a piece of styrene strip to the very edge of the opening, and now it looks as if the space between the opening and the new trim will be exactly what the doctor ordered for mounting new glass.

Of course, this was just a test and you'll want to spend more time on it, and completing the radiuses will require some finesse, but I see no reason why this shouldn't work, and honestly, it wasn't difficult at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[customline]

6 minutes ago, stitchdup said:

Does the crown of the roof on the 1/1 come further down the screen? the kit seems flatter above it and the kit pillars look to be a lot thicker than the 1/1 down the sides

Yes indeed. They totally shot from the hip on this kit. It's pretty bad. I have no idea how they arrive at their tooling but, hopefully, newer kits will be more accurate

[stitchdup]

7 minutes ago, customline said:

Yes indeed. They totally shot from the hip on this kit. It's pretty bad. I have no idea how they arrive at their tooling but, hopefully, newer kits will be more accurate

i guess the kit screen would work for a similar age buick if you fitted it and the roof on a foose caddy

[customline]

28 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Thanks to you Jim, I couldn't get this idea out of my head until I went into the shop and doodled around with it.

 

Actually I discovered that with the method that I described, thinning the body would actually be detrimental.

That thickness will give you more surface to mount the glass.

 

I just sanded off the external trim, glued a piece of styrene strip to the very edge of the opening, and now it looks as if the space between the opening and the new trim will be exactly what the doctor ordered for mounting new glass.

Of course, this was just a test and you'll want to spend more time on it, and completing the radiuses will require some finesse, but I see no reason why this shouldn't work, and honestly, it wasn't difficult at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Freaking brilliant! It gets the glass where it should be and allows a re-radius of the top corners. (I think we're on to something ?). This will very likely become the standard fix for this. Awesome. Can't wait to try it. PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE!

edit: Sorry Steve, didn't mean to wreck your dinner time ?.

Edited November 19, 2023 by customline

[Ace-Garageguy]

25 minutes ago, customline said:

Freaking brilliant! It gets the glass where it should be and allows a re-radius of the top corners. (I think we're on to something ?). This will very likely become the standard fix for this. Awesome. Can't wait to try it. PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE!

Yeah, I'm really tempted to drag one out and dig into it. Just what I need...another squirrel.  

[customline]

I'm sorry, Ace. It looks like I picked at a big scab ?

[customline]

I am going to put all 6 (or...8....) projects back in their respective boxes now. This one must proceed immediately (this happens way too often ☹️).