Any guesses what engine is in this car?

[larman]

Or, better yet, anyone know the car and have more info or pics? I am looking to build this, or something very close. I just can't find any info on it other than this pic from George Klass Remembers. I am guessing it is a 312/stick car, or maybe another Y-block. It might be possible that it has a small block Chevy swap. With that weird scoop I am guessing a 3x2 carb, 2x4bbl, or fuel injection set up. I am also dating the pic as being between '60 and '63 or so. I have most of the stuff to do this car, just not sure about the engine. It looks like the car is black. Maybe a black or black and white interior? In my book, this is just plain cool! Any help appreciated.

[TECHMAN]

ONLY AN EDUCATED GUESS:

looking at the 1963 NHRA rules, and taking into consideration that the 57 T-birds were shown to have a 3350 curb weight,  the CM/SP class had a  10.00 to 15.99 pound per cubic inch rule........   The most probable engine would have been the 312 it came with.   As to the carburation, would take someone with specific knowledge of this particular car.....     Hope that helps some.....

DJ

[Ace-Garageguy]

Going by TECHMAN's numbers, the biggest engine for the class would have been 335 cu. in., so the factory 312, a smallblock Chevy, a 324 Olds, a Dodge Red Ram hemi, DeSoto Firedome hemi, or even a Chrysler Firepower 331 hemi...or several other interesting engines are all possible.

The 312 Ford had kinda odd stacked intake ports and didn't flow as well as some of the engines listed above, so it would have been easier to get power out of something else. And it's heavy.

Just for an example, the '57 Olds 371 J2 factory 3X2 setup offered 312 HP, while the best factory Ford 312 2X4 engine was about 270 IIRC. While the J2 3X2 manifold isn't a direct bolt-on to a class-legal 324 Olds, it can be made to work...and with more cam and headers (which your photo car obviously has) well over 325 HP should be obtainable.

For another option, the hot factory 2X4 bbl 331 Chrysler offered 300 HP...stock. Though it's also a heavy engine, the allowable engine setback in M/SP could help considerably, and again, with a lot more cam than stock, plus headers and all the other tricks, a whole lot of power and torque would be there.

M/SP allowed more mods than the gas or production classes, including, as mentioned, significantly more engine setback, so you have a lot of latitude to build your fantasy while "keepin' it real".    

EDIT: A cost-no-object build might be a bored and stroked Chevrolet smallblock with Hilborn injection and lots of engine setback. It'll fit under your photo's hood.

Edited April 30 by Ace-Garageguy

[MeatMan]

15 hours ago, larman said:

Or, better yet, anyone know the car and have more info or pics? I am looking to build this, or something very close. I just can't find any info on it other than this pic from George Klass Remembers. I am guessing it is a 312/stick car, or maybe another Y-block. It might be possible that it has a small block Chevy swap. With that weird scoop I am guessing a 3x2 carb, 2x4bbl, or fuel injection set up. I am also dating the pic as being between '60 and '63 or so. I have most of the stuff to do this car, just not sure about the engine. It looks like the car is black. Maybe a black or black and white interior? In my book, this is just plain cool! Any help appreciated.

I think this is a perfect opportunity to build it based on the info Ace gives in his response since it was possibly a local racer since no other pics seem to exist of it. Lots of info available from just looking at it. Note the long traction bars, the squared exhaust outlets and the weird hood scoop. You can also see a roll bar crossbar.
I say have at it. I'd enjoy seeing a build sequence of it.

[larman]

Thanks for the replies Techman, Meatman and Ace I really appreciate the input!  I was going to use the AMT '57 for this, but it is not a great kit. I have a Monogram '56 that I am thinking about using instead. I know it is a little different styling wise than the '57, but the real issue is that it is 1/24 scale, and that limits engine possibilities. I have a Lil' Coffin Hemi, the kit based Y-Block, and a number of small block Chevy engines. At this point, the injected Chevy would be the most practical and logical choice, but that seems kind of redundant. I wind up putting small blocks in a lot of projects. As far as the Y-block, they seem to get some love now, but quite honestly, I don't see a lot of them in drag cars from back in the day, and as Ace said above there were better choices to start with. A built hemi might be kind of cool, but I don't have a deep parts box in 1/24 scale. If I went with the AMT '57, then I have plenty of everything parts wise, but the kit is really not good. I built a stock Monogram '56 when I was a kid and it went together well, over all it would probably be the better choice. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just a thought...the engines in a lot of kits aren't particularly accurately scaled.

For instance, major dimensions of the Buick nailhead in the Monogram 1/24 Orange Hauler are just about identical to the old 1/25 nailhead from Revell, and the later Revell nailhead too.

The point being, something like a big ol' honkin 1/25 Chrysler Firepower hemi probably wouldn't scream "underscale!!!" in the engine bay of a 1/24 baby Bird to anyone other than somebody who'd spent a lot of time looking at old T-birds and old Chrysler hemi engines, and who had finely calibrated eyeballs.

Fact is, the vast majority of modelers never noticed that the engine in the more recent tooling of the Barris Ala Kart was closer to 1/32 than 1/25 the kit was supposedly made in, even though to anyone familiar with the little Dodge Red Ram hemi in the real car, the underscale was instantly and very apparently awful...and still there were people who would argue it was right (the first issue Ala Kart from the 1960s engine WAS right).

[MeatMan]

9 hours ago, larman said:

Thanks for the replies Techman, Meatman and Ace I really appreciate the input!  I was going to use the AMT '57 for this, but it is not a great kit. I have a Monogram '56 that I am thinking about using instead. I know it is a little different styling wise than the '57, but the real issue is that it is 1/24 scale, and that limits engine possibilities. I have a Lil' Coffin Hemi, the kit based Y-Block, and a number of small block Chevy engines. At this point, the injected Chevy would be the most practical and logical choice, but that seems kind of redundant. I wind up putting small blocks in a lot of projects. As far as the Y-block, they seem to get some love now, but quite honestly, I don't see a lot of them in drag cars from back in the day, and as Ace said above there were better choices to start with. A built hemi might be kind of cool, but I don't have a deep parts box in 1/24 scale. If I went with the AMT '57, then I have plenty of everything parts wise, but the kit is really not good. I built a stock Monogram '56 when I was a kid and it went together well, over all it would probably be the better choice. 

 

7 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Just a thought...the engines in a lot of kits aren't particularly accurately scaled.

For instance, major dimensions of the Buick nailhead in the Monogram 1/24 Orange Hauler are just about identical to the old 1/25 nailhead from Revell, and the later Revell nailhead too.

The point being, something like a big ol' honkin 1/25 Chrysler Firepower hemi probably wouldn't scream "underscale!!!" in the engine bay of a 1/24 baby Bird to anyone other than somebody who'd spent a lot of time looking at old T-birds and old Chrysler hemi engines, and who had finely calibrated eyeballs.

Fact is, the vast majority of modelers never noticed that the engine in the more recent tooling of the Barris Ala Kart was closer to 1/32 than 1/25 the kit was supposedly made in, even though to anyone familiar with the little Dodge Red Ram hemi in the real car, the underscale was instantly and very apparently awful...and still there were people who would argue it was right (the first issue Ala Kart from the 1960s engine WAS right).

Bill is right on the money with his reply.
Also, even if the scales were accurate you're talking about a barely perceptible diff between the two scales to anyone but a very nictpicky viewer.
Using an online reference for the 2nd gen Hemi that had it at 30" in 1:1, then plugged that into a scale converter the scale diff is only 1.27 mm, or 0.05".
I personally use the eyeball test. If it looks right, I use it.
Personally, I'm a traditional Chevy man, but I back using something other than a Chevy IMHO. 😊

Edited May 1 by MeatMan

[R. Thorne]

My guess is most guys were brand loyal back then and the sbc was still relatively new.  I would say a 312 (or maybe claimed a 272 lol) .  I watched Gene Heidorn (lived 20 miles from me) race many variations of his Ford eventually with a big block and altered wheelbase.

[Speedpro]

If it was my guess, there would be a 312 with a factory supercharger under the hood. The hood scoop is there to make it look more racy. I don't think to many of these t-birds were getting cut up yet.

[Ace-Garageguy]

If you want to stay Y-block, of course they could be bored and stroked like anything else to get the displacement up to the class limit.

There was some pretty trick stuff for the old Y, like this extremely rare Hilborn injection setup. Note the orientation of the special twin-shaft throttle bodies because of the Y's odd intake passages.

EDIT: Note the white car below has had firewall work done to allow more engine setback, and is running a Scintilla/ Vertex-style magneto.

      

 

Here's a bunch of info on Y-blocks...          https://www.oocities.org/yblockhead/

EDIT: Available here in 1/25...    https://www.shapeways.com/product/RBETP6KAJ/1-25-y-block-injectors

                                                 

 

 

Edited May 1 by Ace-Garageguy

[larman]

Thanks R.Thorne, Speedpro, Meatman and Ace for your input, I really appreciate it! 

Ace, I really like the injection set up for the Y-block from Mapleleaf, I have bought from them before and their stuff is muy bueno! May have to send for it. Some good points in the previous posts, so I am not against using the Y-Block. I still like the idea of a hemi too. I was searching around and found the January 1958 issue of Hot Rod magazine, it is in the Motortrend magazine Archives. Nice article on a 392 hemi punched to 454 cid installed in a '55/'56 Thunderbird. I am really liking it. According to that article, they used the T-Bird transmisson with an adapter and I believe the stock rear. I think it was the 3 speed manual. If I go with a hemi for my model, what would be a good trans and can I keep the kit rear end? Kit wise, I have Ford 3 speed transmissions I could use, but would something else be better? I have decided I will start with the '56 Monogram kit and employ some eyeball  engineering as far as scale. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

IIRC, '57 was the first year for the Ford 9" rear end, and also the first year for the Borg Warner T-10 four-speed gearbox.

EDIT: Yup. Checked. IRC.   

If you go with a hemi, those would be my choices.

Any of the Revell '32 Fords have 9" rear ends that can be made to work with leaf springs (and will look fine under a 1/24 build), and most of the 1/24 Nascar kits have reinforced 9" rears. Though the sheetmetal reinforcement on the Nascar banjo housings wasn't a thing in '57, there's absolutely no reason somebody couldn't have done it.

This vintage AMT engine parts pack (below) has both a Chrysler Firepower hemi and a slightly-overscale (for 1/25) T-10...and a whole lotta other good stuff.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326063448991

Only problem is that the hemi is blown...but somebody aftermarket sells a Hilborn injection setup for it, and there are kits with 2X4 manifolds that could be made to work too.

 

 

Edited May 3 by Ace-Garageguy

[larman]

10 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

IIRC, '57 was the first year for the Ford 9" rear end, and also the first year for the Borg Warner T-10 four-speed gearbox.

EDIT: Yup. Checked. IRC.   

If you go with a hemi, those would be my choices.

Any of the Revell '32 Fords have 9" rear ends that can be made to work with leaf springs, and most of the 1/24 Nascar kits have reinforced 9" rears. Though the sheetmetal reinforcement on the Nascar banjo housings wasn't a thing in '57, there's absolutely no reason somebody couldn't have done it.

This vintage AMT engine parts pack has both a Chrysler Firepower hemi and a slightly-overscale (for 1/25) T-10...and a whole lotta other good stuff.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326063448991

Only problem is that the hemi is blown...but somebody aftermarket sells a Hilborn injection setup for it, and there are kits with 2X4 manifolds that could be made to work too.

 

 

I have some Revell '32 parts cars, a rear from the AMT '62 Thunderbird, certainly a few nascar rears, and one from an AMT '57 Ford that I think is a 9", but not sure. I have the parts pack so I will grab the T-10 from there and I also have a deep stash of early hemi parts from various places so I am sure I can piece one together. I think i will get the ball rolling on this and start gathering the parts. Thanks Ace and everyone else that has responded to this thread! The info is very helpful because I try to build as accurately as possible and I don't know a lot about the specific mechanics and good combinations of the era.