2-Part Epoxy Failing?

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I suppose you could say that I’m “countering” the insinuation that a material that’s available through a hardware or auto parts store is by default, “In a word, Garbage”, or is “just a compromise”.

If it does what it’s supposed to do for our particular purposes, and there’s no evidence of later failure, which I have yet to see, then I’m not sure what makes it a compromise or garbage.

How many times do I have to say that fresh material used with reasonable care is perfectly adequate for most static modeling applications?

Hardware store stuff is on the low end of the performance spectrum for epoxies, period.

[StevenGuthmiller]

30 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

How many times do I have to say that fresh material used with reasonable care is perfectly adequate for most static modeling applications?

Hardware store stuff is on the low end of the performance spectrum for epoxies, period.

Okay, so I’ve been mistaken?

It’s not garbage?

I guess I’m just confused.

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

12 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Okay, so I’ve been mistaken?

It’s not garbage?

I guess I’m just confused.

Compared to MGS 285 with 285/287 hardeners, and many other high performance epoxy systems, it is garbage.

OK?

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Compared to MGS 285 with 285/287 hardeners, and many other high performance epoxy systems, it is garbage.

OK?

Hey, whatever you say Bill.

I’m just trying to make sure that I’ve got everything down.

I suppose my question should be, how much 1st hand experience do you have with JB Weld, Plastic Weld, just out of curiosity?

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

29 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

...how much 1st hand experience do you have with JB Weld, Plastic Weld, just out of curiosity?

I would wager a lot more than you do, in a wide variety of applications that go way beyond model cars.

JB Weld saved my bacon on the road once, when a soldered joint on a Fiat X1/9 radiator bleed fitting failed (both the radiator and fitting were brass), and an emergency JB Weld repair got me the rest of the way across the country, never gave the least indication of leaking, and was still on the car years later when I sold it because I forgot to ever do a "proper" repair.

That was not the 5-minute stuff, and I was extremely careful about cleaning, mixing, and application.

I'm currently experimenting with the regular version to form some critical joints between dissimilar materials on a custom instrument panel for a full-scale DeLorean.

Testing alongside my old faithful MGS, and a West resin system that is certified for one particular aircraft application, as well as an aviation-grade epoxy made specifically for bonding aluminum.

I've used JB Weld extensively, as well as several other consumer-grade epoxies, for tooling and fixture applications that didn't need to last forever, or be exceptionally strong, and needed to get done quick with a minimum of fuss.

Etc.

 

Edited January 29 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[StevenGuthmiller]

4 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I would wager a lot more than you do, in a wide variety of applications that go way beyond model cars.

JB Weld saved my bacon on the road once, when a soldered joint on a Fiat X1/9 radiator bleed fitting failed, and an emergency JB Weld repair got me the rest of the way across the country, never gave the least indication of leaking, and was still on the car years later when I sold it because I forgot to ever do a "proper" repair.

That was not the 5-minute stuff, and I was extremely careful about cleaning, mixing, and application.

I'm currently experimenting with the regular version to form some critical joints between dissimilar materials on a custom instrument panel for a full-scale DeLorean as well.

Testing alongside my old faithful MGS, and a West System resin system that is certified for one particular aircraft application.

I've used JB Weld extensively, as well as several other consumer-grade epoxies, for tooling and fixture applications that didn't need to last forever, or be exceptionally strong, and needed to get done quick with a minimum of fuss.

Etc.

 

I wasn’t trying to make it a contest about who has more experience with epoxies.

I’m not going to pretend that I know anything that you don’t.

I just wanted to know if you’ve ever used JB Weld “Clear Weld” or “Plastic Weld” specifically for model car stuff or not.

It’s easier to determine the weight that one should give to a person’s argument if you know what their experience is.

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just now, StevenGuthmiller said:

I wasn’t trying to make it a contest about who has more experience with epoxies.

I’m not going to pretend that I know anything that you don’t.

I just wanted to know if you’ve ever used JB Weld “Clear Weld” or “Plastic Weld” specifically for model car stuff or not.

It’s easier to determine the weight that one should give to a person’s argument if you know what their experience is.

I wrote I don't use epoxy for general assembly for models, I wouldn't use the 5-minute stuff for anything permanent, and why.

You seem to want to take that as some kind of personal affront to your choice of adhesives.

My saying that 5-minute epoxy is garbage compared to high performance epoxies, and garbage even compared to standard JB Weld, is a statement of my opinion based solely on my own experience, not an attack on your modeling choices.

I hope that's clear enough. 

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I wrote I don't use epoxy for general assembly for models, I wouldn't use the 5-minute stuff for anything permanent, and why.

You seem to want to take that as some kind of personal affront to your choice of adhesives.

My saying that 5-minute epoxy is garbage compared to high performance epoxies, and garbage even compared to standard JB Weld, is a statement of my opinion based solely on my own experience, not an attack on your modeling choices.

I hope that's clear enough. 

 

Yeah, it’s clear, and no, I don’t take it as a personal affront.

Just wanted to be clear on the assessment that something that you’ve never used is garbage.

Now I think I’ve got it. 😉

 

 

Steve

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Yeah, it’s clear, and no, I don’t take it as a personal affront.

Just wanted to be clear on the assessment that something that you’ve never used is garbage.

Now I think I’ve got it. 😉

Where do you get I've "never used" the stuff from anything I've written?

Why would I have formed the opinion it was garbage without actually having some empirical evidence to base my opinion on?

[StevenGuthmiller]

6 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Where do you get I've "never used" the stuff from anything I've written?

Why would I have formed the opinion it was garbage without actually having some empirical evidence to base my opinion on?

Mostly because I asked you more than once if you had used the product “specifically” and you never gave me a distinct answer.

 

Steve

[Pierre Rivard]

I use 5 minute epoxy.... don't shoot me!

[Ace-Garageguy]

51 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Mostly because I asked you more than once if you had used the product “specifically” and you never gave me a distinct answer.

I guess my reading comprehension and question answering skills just aren't up to snuff.

I've NEVER used 5-minute epoxy for anything on a model car or anything else that I wanted to be permanent because I've never been impressed with its adhesion on ANYTHING, so why would I use it on a model I cared about?

I've used it for temporary fixturing...on model cars and full scale things...because it's easy to peel off, especially if a surface isn't scuffed.

And I've used it enough on various and sundry OTHER applications...as well as temporary model work...to form the opinion it's NOT something I choose to use for permanent assembly of a model.

"Distinct" enough?

There's no "right" answer here. Use what YOU like, and I'll use what I like.

I've said repeatedly it's adequate if used correctly for most static model car work, and if somebody likes it then USE it.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Ah, well maybe that’s why I’m using garbage to assemble models.

I really don’t care about my stuff! 😊

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

By the way, here are the videos I created some time ago to help illustrate the bond of the JB Weld product that I’ve been using for a decade with perfectly acceptable results.

If anyone needs a stronger bond for a model car.....well, I don’t know what you plan on doing with that model, but apparently you have much rougher plans than just displaying it. 😉

 

 

Steve

Edited January 29 by StevenGuthmiller

[von Zipper]

Well Ferby,

I hope that clears things up...

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

10 minutes ago, von Zipper said:

Well Ferby,

I hope that clears things up...

 

It’s going to be pretty difficult to determine what the reason for failure was on models assembled 5 and 20 years ago, regardless of what was used to glue them together.

Apparently, whatever it was, was garbage, if that helps at all. 😉

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

It’s going to be pretty difficult to determine what the reason for failure was on models assembled 5 and 20 years ago, regardless of what was used to glue them together.

Apparently, whatever it was, was garbage, if that helps at all. 😉

Boy, for somebody who says he doesn't care what anyone else uses, you sure are pushing this.

Do you find the word "garbage" offensive on some level I can't fathom?

Or is it just that subconsciously you feel that everyone has to use what you use or they're wrong?

[NOBLNG]

The 5 minute stuff may not be Permanent, but I’m pretty sure it will outlast me. I’m also pretty sure that none of my models are going to wind up in a museum or modeling  hall of fame, so if they eventually fall apart…I don’t really care.😜

[StevenGuthmiller]

3 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Boy, for somebody who says he doesn't care what anyone else uses, you sure are pushing this.

Do you find the word "garbage" offensive on some level I can't fathom?

Or is it just that subconsciously you feel that everyone has to use what you use or they're wrong?

Actually yes, I do get a little defensive  when blanket statements are made about something that you yourself have admitted that you don’t use on models.

This is a modeling forum, and useful, first hand information in conjunction with the hobby is what I hope to find when I log on.

I get it, you’re an “expert” on epoxy adhesives, but I have offered actual modeling experiences and at least some proof of my claims.

I never stated once in any of my posts that what someone else might choose to try or use is “garbage”, so to say that I’m trying to subconsciously tell everyone that what they’re using is wrong, and I’m the only one that can possibly be right, is comical to say the least.

Ya might wanna look in the mirror.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

10 minutes ago, NOBLNG said:

The 5 minute stuff may not be Permanent, but I’m pretty sure it will outlast me. I’m also pretty sure that none of my models are going to wind up in a museum or modeling  hall of fame, so if they eventually fall apart…I don’t really care.😜

Correct.

What’s permanent?

There’s no such thing.

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

19 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Actually yes, I do get a little defensive  when blanket statements are made about something that you yourself have admitted that you don’t use on models.

Show me the exact quote to back that up...and be sure you don't take my words out of context.

Edited January 29 by Ace-Garageguy

[LennyB]

I think trying to figure out why a joint from 5-20 years ago failed you would need to look at the joint itself.  It can fail for many other reasons then the epoxy being the culprit.  Was the surface prepped properly? Epoxy bonds best to a porous surface which styrene is not.  If the surface is smooth the epoxy can peel right off no mater what the quality of the epoxy is although some will grip better then others.  Was the surface painted? Did you try to glue over the paint. The epoxy could have a reaction to solvents in the paint.  Ideally you would want to glue directly to the styrene with nothing in between but I would guess that is not the case as you probably would have used a solvent instead of the epoxy.  I’ve seen epoxy joints fail and the paint peeled off the part, so in that case it wasn’t the fault of the epoxy.  

As mentioned above mixing equal parts makes a difference but what you mix on can also make a difference. Never use something like paper or cardboard to mix epoxy.  Some of the solvents in the hardener will wick into the paper and weaken your joint because no mater how carefully you measured your ‘equal’ parts, they are no longer equal. Just my 2 cents although with inflation that was probably more like a buck fifty.  

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

've NEVER used 5-minute epoxy for anything on a model car or anything else that I wanted to be permanent because I've never been impressed with its adhesion on ANYTHING, so why would I use it on a model I cared about?

I don’t know.

That sounds relatively definitive.

 

 

 

Steve

[LennyB]

Steven, Bill that's enough out of you two, your just flogging a dead horse. Now both of you go sit in the corner until you are ready to kiss and makeup. 😙

[Ace-Garageguy]

29 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I don’t know.

That sounds relatively definitive.

I said don't take my words out of context, which you did.

Here's what I said EXACTLY:

"I've NEVER used 5-minute epoxy for anything on a model car or anything else that I wanted to be permanent because I've never been impressed with its adhesion on ANYTHING, so why would I use it on a model I cared about?

I've used it for temporary fixturing...on model cars and full scale things...because it's easy to peel off, especially if a surface isn't scuffed.

And I've used it enough on various and sundry OTHER applications...as well as temporary model work...to form the opinion it's NOT something I choose to use for permanent assembly of a model."