A Riveting Question

[Ddms]

I found some pretty good pix online, one of which is attached, so I've decided to go ahead and build the old Wells Finecast ("Auto-Kits") BRM P57 kit. I'd like to make a few corrections and add some detail. The white metal body was really rough and took a lot of cleaning up and filling, but I think the worst is behind me. I still need to punch a couple more access holes in the body.

I've already scribed more panel gaps and I'd like add the rivets that attach the panels to the space frame. I've looked online and found a couple of sources at widely varying prices. Great Planes offers 360 individual .5 mm rivets for about $20 including shipping. Seems like a lot, but that's the best deal I've found so far. Any other ideas?

Is .5 mm the right size for panel rivets? Seems like individual rivets in drilled holes are the best way to go. Any other suggestions re other ways to put rivets on the car? Any other details that cry out to be included?

Tom

[Foxer]

Archer does rivets for armor modelers and might have something you can use

[MrObsessive]

Tichy Train Group also does some fine rivets in plastic at a very reasonable price.

.5" rivets for a 1/24-1/25 model is awfully big! Here's a pic of the side and bottom of my D-Type Jag where I wanted rivets in the panels. The fun part-----------you'll need to drill each and every hole to get the rivets to stay as each one is on a tiny stem.

Hey! They don't call me Mr. Obsessive for nothin'!

My rivets here are roughly .020" dia. and to me they look in scale according to the 1:1.

I used Tamiya clear acrylic to "glue" each one as opposed to messy epoxy which is a bit much for something this tiny.

Hope this helps!

Edited July 29, 2009 by MrObsessive

[Art Anderson]

Scale Hardware has all manner of miniature rivets, in brass, 100pcs per package. Their smallest rivet has a .40mm round head, with a machined shaft .30mm (.012") in diameter. These are machined brass, and have to be seen to be believed. In addition, Scale Hardware stocks a wide variety of machined brass dummy hex-head bolts, in addition to dummy hex nut/bolt detail in a variety of sizes. If your taste runs to threaded nuts and bolts, they have those as well, down to .50mm (.020") diameter threads, with a hex head .30mm in width AND both nuts and socket nut drivers to match.

I've ordered from these people, online, they respond within the hour of receiving the order (if on a business day), and have shipped every order I've placed the same day, with delivery by USPS within 3-4 days.

http://www.scalehardware.com/miniature-riv...f7fe65ddb36275e

Highly recommended!

Art

[Ddms]

Thanks, Mr. O. Your Jag looks great!

.5" rivets for a 1/24-1/25 model is awfully big! Here's a pic of the side and bottom of my D-Type Jag where I wanted rivets in the panels.

The Great Planes rivets are .5 mm. If my weak math is correct, .5" is the same as 1/2 inch. I agree, those are pretty big, and if they are really .5 mm, they are bigger than I'd like to use. Regardless, where did you get them?

The fun part-----------you'll need to drill each and every hole to get the rivets to stay as each one is on a tiny stem.

That's okay. At least they'll stay put. I have a PE sheet of disks and washers. but they just attach to the surface. Even if they're glued with epoxy, they're very easy to knock off. I'd rather do the extra work than be constantly replacing rubbed-off rivets.

I can tolerate tedium and repetition okay. It's tension I can't stand - like repairing a ridiculously fragile resin light cluster for my current Southern Cross Miniatures Talbot Lago T26 build. The tension is partly because nobody has replacement parts for the model - the mfgr is apparently in hiding. If I screw up that cluster, I'm up the proverbial creek.

I also hate it when I lose a part that's either irreplaceable or the product of many hours work. That's one reason I'm trying to find a lot of rivets at a low price.

I'll try to post a pic of the BRM kit later today.

[MrObsessive]

Thanks for the compliment Tom!

The rivets I got from a local train shop called Tommy Gilberts in Gettysburg, PA.

I remember drilling the holes and painting (rubbed out and polished) before putting the rivets in. Since the rivets were so tiny, they were simply brush painted (a little dot really ), let dry sufficiently, and then put in the body.

As Art mentioned, Scale Hardware are good folks to deal with as I've gotten threaded nuts and bolts, as well as simulated rivets from them as well. The rivets make for good "pinning" of things such as hangers for brackets in engine or chassis detail.

Since they're brass, they'll be sturdier for a little stress in those areas and not break like the plastic ones may.

[Art Anderson]

This is a truly FASTEN-ating thread

In all seriousness though, being that it is a metal body, if you have some solder adn a soldering iron (adjustable temperature if possible) you could just put some small solder dots to serve as "rivets" where needed as a cost-effective alternative.

I mention a temperature adjustable iron as a low temperature would allow you to better control the size of the "rivet heads" rather than have to take more time and precision as it would with the higher heat / faster melting of the solder.

Just a thought.

That would work, if the model kit body in question were say, brass, or tin-plated steel. However, Wills (Southeast) Finecast models are done in white metal, which unfortunately melts at very nearly the same temperature as ordinary lead-tin solder.

Another thought here: In automotive use, there are rivets, and there are rivets. So much depends (or depended) on the metal in question, and whether the rivets were used to join chassis parts together, or to "stitch" sections of sheet metal.

In the years before arc welding came to be used in chassis (frame) assembly, those units were generally assembled using steel rivets, installed and swedged over while red hot (think of riveting guns as used on steel structures here). In my experience, those rivets have fairly large heads and shanks (a Model A Ford or even a '32 Ford frame) was assembled with hot steel rivets having a 1/2" shank, and a 3/4" head, and were formed, in assembly with an approximately 3/4" head on the back side by use of a pneumatic riveting gun. A 3/4" rivet head translates to .030" in 1/25th scale.

Rivets used in bodywork tended to be much smaller, and were cold rivets, installed and "expanded" on the inside of the body either mechanically, or by the use of "explosive" rivets, as in aircraft use. The rivets used in say, a steel body shell to join parts to a windshield frame generally weren't more than a 1/4" round head on the outside, and that's just .010" in our most common model building scale. .010" is but a large "pin ######" in the dies for molding styrene plastic, and are almost unachievable, that small, in tooling meant for molding diecast or white metal body shells. Even the thinnest layer of paint is often enough to hide them by simply burying them in the the finish. So what to do?

I've done perhaps as much rivet surface detail as anyone, and after experimenting for a long time, came to using bits of round Evergreen styrene stock, set in holes (with tiny drops of CA glue), then trimmed to a level just above the surrounding surface and polished with an 8000-grit polishing cloth to give the effect of a rounded rivet head on the surface. That is tedious as all get out, for sure, particularly if there are a lot of them, or if there is an extended row of such rivets, meaning that they need to be spaced evenly, and in either straight lines or worse, in an arc or other curved manner. Additionally, geting the heads to look uniform has often taken me several fits and starts, even to the point of sanding offending rivets off, and replacing them, until I got the look I wanted. In order to make this work, I've had to resort to using styrene rod stock larger than scale, but unless its way out, the visual effect outweighs the somewhat overly large rivet heads that result.

Molded styrene rivets do exist, Grandt Line (a model RR, dollhouse, and military modelers' detail parts supplier of long standing) makes them, as do several aftermarket suppliers in the world of armor modeling. The smallest of these do have a parting line across the head of the rivet, but a bit of careful polishing after installation de-emphasizes that little nit. However, working with metal does have its problems--most generally with diecast.

Diecast (which the metal used is called Zamak) is perhaps the hardest material a model car body is made, and that makes power drilling almost a necessity, if one doesn't want to spend a lot of time on each hole, for installing rivet heads on such a surface. Zamak does solder, but it takes a lot of heat, as this metal "sinks" heat away from the point of contact with a soldering pencil rapidly--and if one gets the Zamak just a few degrees hotter than the melting point of solder, it will itself melt. Additionally, Zamak takes a liquid soldering flux in order for solder to flow on it, rosin or paste fluxes generally don't do the job, in my experience. With white metal, while that stuff is soft enough to drill fairly easily with numbered twist drills and a pin vise, the melting point of this alloy is so close to that of even low temp (64/40 lead/tin solder) that if you get the surface hot enough for the solder to stick, it will itself be melted by the heat of the soldering pencil. Then there is the problem of cleaning up the surface. If one does not get ALL the soldering flux residues off the metal surface, that will cause any paint applied over it to blister and peel in time (that used to be a major problem in the days before catalyzed putties, when about the only surface filler that would work on steel 1:1 auto body sheet steel).

Art

[Harry P.]

Another way to simulate rivets (and a relatively easy way-no drilling needed):

1. Take a mechanical pencil and file the outside of the tip until the edge is very sharp. You can find mechanical pencils at an art or office supply store in 0.3, 0.5, 0.7 and 0.9 mm diameters (the measurement is the diameter of the lead the pencil holds).

2. Get a roll of silver aluminum duct tape, found at any home center. The tape is self-adhesive aluminum sheet, somewhat thicker than aluminum foil. Place a section of the tape on a semi-soft surface. A typical green "self-healing" cutting mat is perfect... a thick piece of cardboard will work too.

3. With the lead retracted into the pencil, punch the sharpened pencil tip through the foil tape with a slight twisting motion. The small circle of foil tape that you just cut out of the larger piece will be "stuck" in the tip of the pencil.

4. Apply the "rivet" by placing the tip of the pencil on the desired spot, then click the lead out to eject the "rivet."

The drawback to this system is that the rivet is only held in place by the adhesive on the back of it, so a body covered with these "rivets" wouldn't stand a whole lot of handling, although under several coats of paint and clear, you'd probably be ok. The plus side is, no drilling necessary, and no need to use miniature hardware, which can be expensive.

[elan]

Keep us posted on your progress. I'd love to try that kit!

[buffalobill]

Archer Transfers was mentioned early on in this thread as a source for rivet details. I'd check out their website: www.archertransfers.com

What is unique about their approach to riveting, is that they have applied scale-sized rivets to a clear decal carrier film, so one needn't drill holes for each rivet, as well as there's no glue required for each of those rivets, either. And, it'll be a lot easier to get the rivets to be in alignment, since they're affixed to the decal film. If your local hobby shop has a train section, or if you should have a model railroading shop nearby, look for the July '09 issue of "Railroad Model Craftsman" (pgs 80-89) for several color photos of Archer's rivets applied to a 1/87th scale railroad tank car. And, yes, Archer has many sizes of 'rivets', as well as 'raised panel lines', and other products that may be useful for model vehicle builders.

Both Grandt Line and Tichy make excellent individual plastic rivets. If you want rivets done in white metal, try Ozark Miniatures - a supplier speicalizing in 1/24 - 1/20.3 large scale train detail parts, plus all sorts of logging & mining stuff, too. For certain applications, one may be able to make use of N scale (1:160) model railroad 'track nails' that are used to spike down trackwork. They're super cheap, pre-blackened, and easy to trim, if need be. (Atlas is perhaps the easiest- to-find supplier at most any model train shop)

[Semi Trailer Mechanic]

What's goin' on...

I like using those made by Titchy Train Group and Grandt Line. If I remember I used an .019 drill bit and a spring loaded pin vice.

here's a Peterbilt I used those on. These rivets are out of scale I purposely did that so the paint wouldn't drown them out.

[Modelmartin]

This thread is ................... rivet-ing! I can't believe you guys missed that pun!

I have used the method Art suggested which is drilling the holes and gluing in evergreen and filing to a uniform height and there I deviated from Art and used liquid glue to soften and round off the corners and mellow it out a bit. Just brush on and leave it. I drilled my holes on a Unimat mill so the line would be straight. If you don't have access to machine tools, tape on a strip of brass to guide you. One could use a piece of screen taped on to establish a grid to drill the holes. also.

Good luck to you. Wills kits are pretty cool. I am building their Bugatti T59 right now and it is a challenge but it is satisfying also. I bought the kit in 1979 and only felt confident enough to tackle it now! It helps that some good wire wheels are available for it now also.

[Modelmartin]

Uh........... 'scusey, but we didnt all miss it ................ I was "FASTEN-ated" from the start. See my above post.

I did see your pun and you do get a gold star for it!

[Ddms]

I did see your pun and you do get a gold star for it!

Thanks, but should this sort of thing be encouraged?

I bought the Tichy rivets. Each sprue has 200 x .030" rivets and costs $2.50. I bought two sprues. They look great on the sprue - smooth heads with no mold lines.

On the BRM car, the major rivet line is adjacent to the belt line where the two halves of the clamshell will be connected. I want that seam to be invisible - meaning I'll need to do quite a bit of filling there - so I'm thinking the best time to attach the rivets is after the two halves are connected and the seam has been "disappeared." The same will apply to the Dzus fasteners that attach the upper panels to the space frame.

If it's necessary to polish the final coat of paint, I'll probably cover the rivets with masking tape to prevent burn-through.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Ddms

[Ddms]

I want that seam to be invisible - meaning I'll need to do quite a bit of filling there - so I'm thinking the best time to attach the rivets is after the two halves are connected and the seam has been "disappeared."

Using a pin vice, I've drilled quite a few holes for the Tichy rivets. That went better than expected. The problem is inserting the rivets themselves.

I've inserted a few, and they look just fine. But it took a long time to get each one perpendicular to the hole. I tried holding them with a tweezers and with poster tack. Neither method is able to hold a tiny plastic rivet at a fixed angle, so it takes about a dozen tries for each rivet.

At this rate, this task will take many days. I'll probably get better at it with practice, but is there a better way to hold these things straight?

Ddms

[buffalobill]

Try uisng some clear tape to hold a row of rivets in place on the outside of the panel that's 'being riveted' while you glue them from the inside of the panel. I wouldn't be concerned w/ trimming the 'legs' off of the rivets until the glue has dried. (CA recommended) When the glue has dried, remove the tape on the outside of the panel, and then gently clip and/or sand the protruding 'legs' of the rivets flush w/ the inside of the panel. Finish up w/ normal glazing putty, primer, etc.

Also, the closer the diameter of the hole you're drilling for the rivets is to the diameter of those rivets, the straighter the rivets should remain when inserted in their holes. That may seem like a 'duh' type of comment, but even the slighest sloppiness of the fit will cause the rivets to wander about, esp sicne they have hardly any mass to them. . .

Placing these tiny rivets one at a time is about as much fun as sanding Bondo!

btw - if you ever need to make an overlay of styrene that would/could be laminated to another panel, you might try using a 'dress maker's pattern tracer' (aka - a 'pinch wheel'). Several size rivet makers like this can be purchased from Micro Mark , or at most any crafts or fabric store. .010 thickness styrene works best for embossing rivets using this method, but it's not very feasible to do this on either compound or convex surfaces. And, for those working in brass, North West Short Line (NWSL), a manufacturer of model RR stuff, makes a beautiful, but somewhat pricey set of tools for embossing rivets. (it may work on plastics, too - not sure)

I'm going to use some of Archer's rivets (that are attached to a decal carrier film) on an upcoming project, and when I do, I'll post my comments on this topic thread.

[Ddms]

After some serious pondering, I solved my own problem. Using a drill and some small files, I modified the tips of a pair of crappy Harbor Freight pliers. In this instance, crappy is good, because the pliers' metal is soft and easy to file and drill.

In case the pic isn't clear, here's an explanation: Both plier tips are the same. I filed a perpendicular groove across each tip, about 1 mm back from the very end. These grooves form an opening where the rivet head goes. The distance between this opening and the tip of the pliers is less than the length of the rivet shaft. Then I drilled a .025 hole between the plier tip and the opening formed by those grooves. The hole is where the shaft goes. Because the distance between the opening and the end of the pliers is shorter than the rivet, the tip of the rivet shaft sticks out beyond the tip of the pliers, which don't let the rivet swivel around, but don't crush it either.

With these pliers, the rivet never gets loose. For each rivet, I start by grabbing it and breaking it off the sprue. Then, without releasing it, I dip the tip of the shaft in glue, stick it in the target hole, tap it down and go on to the next rivet.

I thought this job would be a major PITA, but I could have riveted the whole car in the time it took to write this. Hope somebody else can put it to good use.

I'd try to patent it, but somebody has surely thought of it before. Those model railroaders probably use a similar gizmo for driving spikes.

[simonr]

Hey Tom, is this a 1/24 model?

Simón

I found some pretty good pix online, one of which is attached, so I've decided to go ahead and build the old Wells Finecast ("Auto-Kits") BRM P57 kit. I'd like to make a few corrections and add some detail. The white metal body was really rough and took a lot of cleaning up and filling, but I think the worst is behind me. I still need to punch a couple more access holes in the body.

I've already scribed more panel gaps and I'd like add the rivets that attach the panels to the space frame. I've looked online and found a couple of sources at widely varying prices. Great Planes offers 360 individual .5 mm rivets for about $20 including shipping. Seems like a lot, but that's the best deal I've found so far. Any other ideas?

Is .5 mm the right size for panel rivets? Seems like individual rivets in drilled holes are the best way to go. Any other suggestions re other ways to put rivets on the car? Any other details that cry out to be included?

Tom

[aurfalien]

Another way to simulate rivets (and a relatively easy way-no drilling needed):

 

1. Take a mechanical pencil and file the outside of the tip until the edge is very sharp. You can find mechanical pencils at an art or office supply store in 0.3, 0.5, 0.7 and 0.9 mm diameters (the measurement is the diameter of the lead the pencil holds).

 

2. Get a roll of silver aluminum duct tape, found at any home center. The tape is self-adhesive aluminum sheet, somewhat thicker than aluminum foil. Place a section of the tape on a semi-soft surface. A typical green "self-healing" cutting mat is perfect... a thick piece of cardboard will work too.

 

3. With the lead retracted into the pencil, punch the sharpened pencil tip through the foil tape with a slight twisting motion. The small circle of foil tape that you just cut out of the larger piece will be "stuck" in the tip of the pencil.

 

4. Apply the "rivet" by placing the tip of the pencil on the desired spot, then click the lead out to eject the "rivet."

 

The drawback to this system is that the rivet is only held in place by the adhesive on the back of it, so a body covered with these "rivets" wouldn't stand a whole lot of handling, although under several coats of paint and clear, you'd probably be ok. The plus side is, no drilling necessary, and no need to use miniature hardware, which can be expensive.

Wow!

This is brilliant and you my man, are a genius and poet.

Thank you very much

[SfanGoch]

The most realistic, detailed nuts, bolts and rivets available are the resin items produced by Masterclub. Once you use them, you'll never use Tichy or Grandt Line again. They come in sizes from .4mm to 1.8mm and can be used for any scale. Depending on the size, you get 70-190 pieces in a resealable bag. They have 49 types/sizes of rivets available which cover any need. They have nuts and bolts with/without washers, cone rivets and castle nuts. Plus, they are really inexpensive, 150 Russian rubles ($2.29 USD at the present exchange rate). You can order them from Armor35, for which I provided the link. It's a good shop to do business with and ship (really reasonable) stateside. There are some stateside and overseas online shops that carry a limited selection of Masterclub items; but, they charge $4.50 and more per bag.

 

[aurfalien]

Well, the thing I don't like about actual rivets is drilling holes.

But then again, I havn;t treid the aluminum duct tape method and may find it un realistic.