For those of you who compete......

[Karmodeler2]

For those who compete (and for those who don't, but do attend shows), what is the one thing you really like about your favorite show each year and what is one thing you don't like that you would change to "X" if it were your show.

Just curious what different elements attract you and what you would change, if anything, if you could change it.

And if you have more than one of each, that's okay too. I was just trying to keep it brief so you would not have to type a college term paper.

Thanks.

David

[cruz]

I would bring in some Hooter girls and get rid of all the ugly regular attendees!!! I,m sorry, just had to get that one in there, by the way, good question!!!

[Greg Cullinan]

I would bring in some Hooter girls and get rid of all the ugly regular attendees!!! I,m sorry, just had to get that one in there, by the way, good question!!!

Gets my vote Been to one show and didn't compete but it all seemed good to me.

[Railfreak78]

The only competing I do is with my local car club. I did shortly attend the GoodGuys spring national and had a couple cars in that. Desert Scale Classic is this saturday and will be my first big really judged show. I have wanted this since I was a kid! I will enter maybe 5 cars with no expectations. I love the atmosphere and eye candy. The only thing I would change locally is extended classes and on a larger level is my workmanship I must learn BMF cause the paint I do looks like junk compared whats around it

[Karmodeler2]

I would bring in some Hooter girls and get rid of all the ugly regular attendees!!! I,m sorry, just had to get that one in there, by the way, good question!!!

Consider it done!!!!

and how about, instead of a trophy, you get to take one of the hooter's girl home?

On second thought, might not be a good idea. She would end up talking and asking too many questions: wanting to go out to eat right when you are ready to spray the base you have been waiting on for weeks, and then basically becoming a pain in the rear keeping you from your work table, so I might have to nix the "hooter girl" trophy idea. Sorry!!!

[Modelmartin]

To be serious for a mere moment, the thing I would like to see more of at a contest is more people competing. The thing I would like to have changed is to have more knowledgable judges which is a perennial problem. No one can know everything they need to know and too many people decline to be judges. I almost always offer to judge, more people should.

Ok, seriousness is over.

[Len Woodruff]

I agree with Andy about more partcipation on both the cars entered and offering to judge.

[Karmodeler2]

Thanks Andy, Len, and Mark!

You bring up some good points and I have a few issues with the judging as well.

Thanks Mark and I look forward to more of your input. I have always thought (okay, well, not always) that two OOB cars, one an AMT and the other a Tamiya should be given different evaluations if they both are beautiful and close to flawless. The AMT guy worked twice as hard.

I also would like to see the people choose the winner in each class, similar to the South Carolina Modeler's Association and the way they run their show.

Got to go to work. Will pick back up on this later.

Thanks once again for your input.

David

[David G.]

I would bring in some Hooter girls and get rid of all the ugly regular attendees!!! I,m sorry, just had to get that one in there, by the way, good question!!!

But then nobody would look at the cars!

i'm with Marcos some good looking women at a model show would be nice.

there's probably more females attending Star Trek conventions then there are model car shows, can't say i blame them though. car modelers take weirdness to a whole new level, a level beyond Trekies ...

Dave

What does that say for those of us who are both?

[cruz]

One thing I would like is if the NNL East would give out more trophies or plaques in more categories, it's too big of a show to just give out the small amount of prizes they are used to handing out.

[Ramcharger]

While I'm really in it for the chicks, what I look for is competition, the more the better. I want to go up against the good stuff, competition improves the breed and all that stuff. As far as judging, it's all good. I've been to shows with good judges and bad, but if your stuff is good, I mean really good, it wins no matter what. My buddies and I have a saying, " if you are not winning, build better." My only complaints are about down time, waiting for judging to be finished and guys taking it too seriously. It's just little plastic cars! I like a well organized, well run show. Easy registration and quick but fair judging, that's what makes a good show. Awards that are appealing to display and not cheap looking are good, too. I wouldn't change much about most shows, they all seem pretty well done to me. Oh, by the way, don't give awards to the members of the host club, it has the appearance of impropriety.

[Terry Sumner]

I like competitions even if I lose...which is quite frequently may I add...because it is competitions which raise the bar for modeling in general and especially for me. I am absolutely sure that all the competitions I've been in over the last 20 years or so are what raised my skill levels to whatever point they're at right now. While I really loved the NNL, I'm afraid it doesn't do much to improve my skill level. About the only way it would, would be if I were able to ferret out a certain modeler who did something on a certain model to ask him questions about.

In a competition, you can increase your skills 2 ways. One by asking the judges who judged your model what they found good and bad about it. But the better way is to volunteer to judge. This is by far the best way to find out what's good and bad. I made sure I got myself involved in judging way back and I made friends with many of the guys who were longtime judges. It was from them that I learned many of the techniques that I employ now in my meager modeling attempts.

[weasel]

Ron...why can't a member of the host club get some 'gold'??

i thought the idea was that the BEST on the table/class would win, no matter WHO builds it!!

would it be right if a lesser model would win over a better model just because the dude is a member???

i know a lot of people that only compete locally, why deprive them of the chance??

as for me, i know i'll never get a best of anything, but, i still build, i don't consider myself a slouch, but, i'm not a Bill Geary or a Ray Patrick!! i'm the 'fill', mid pack... that's not to say i don't get some gold now and then, but, i know my limitations and accept that!!!

as for judging, well, that's another story... '10 year old, perfect paint, no smudges, etc...' i call BS!! to prove a point, i asked this kid what kind of paint he used, no answer, he didn't know because his DAD built it!!!

i'll give them the benefit of doubt, but, they should know what kind of paint they used if they indeed painted it!!

[Billy Kingsley]

I've done both non-competitive shows like NNLs and full on judged competitions, as both an observer and a entrant/competitor.

The only thing that I would change across the board is that they are way too short! No matter what kind of event or how much time you are there, it's never enough! There's never enough time to see every model, there's never enough time to see all your friends, and there's nowhere near enough time to try and get both in!

[Scale-Master]

Many good points brought up here. Some of the things that I would like to see more often have been touched on, better quality of judges, and consistency of judging through out the show, ethics. As for things I’d like to see more of or changed in some cases…

How about judges who don’t vanish once the judging is done and the awards are presented?

Many builders want to know why they placed where they did. (How often have we heard the chatter of builders thinking their model was better than the one that won?) Wouldn’t it be nice if they could be provided with the thought process that rendered the outcome from the actual judges who made the call? If the model was not as good as the competition, maybe the builder would like to know what to improve? I know of many builders who use contests to learn from the competition, and the judges.

It would make for a much better event if the entrants were able to find out why, from the judges who made the decisions, why they were awarded (or maybe not) what they got. When the judges are not available for questions after the show, it raises some accountability issues. Especially if it looks like a “Good Ole Boy Deal†had been played out.

I have no problem with the club members or show promoters entering in a show, in fact it would benefit the show to tap into as much expertise as possible. But no one should EVER judge a class or even offer opinions when they have a model in the category.

Also, if the judging room is to be closed during the judging, try to not have it be closed for too long, especially where the venue does not offer much in the way of entertainment. Yes, the vendor room is a great time to burn time and money, but after a few passes though it looses its entertainment factor.

As far as NNL’s having awards, to me it seems counter to the original idea. Once an awards system is introduced to an ostensibly non-competitive arena, it becomes a contest, not an NNL.

To address Junior classes with too nicely finished models by 6 year old kids who don’t know anything about the subject, kit, techniques, (“Daddy, what color did you paint this…?†“What kind of car is this?â€).

Note to these parents: You building a model for the kid does not earn either one of you a legitimate award, but it does steal one away from a kid who did their own work. Well done cheaters, great lesson and ethics to instill in your kids. Shame on you! Is an ill gotten little plastic trophy worth all the deception?

And the Hooter’s girls…, I prefer my models made of plastic and aluminum, so they should fit right in… to some degree. But I would not be allowed to bring one home even if I won her fair and square.

[randx0]

A little more encouragement for the 2 kids that do show up with a built model. I'm not talking a trophy for every kid but a kit or other item that they may not have or think about getting that will help improve their skills.

[randx0]

To be serious for a mere moment, the thing I would like to see more of at a contest is more people competing. The thing I would like to have changed is to have more knowledgable judges which is a perennial problem. No one can know everything they need to know and too many people decline to be judges. I almost always offer to judge, more people should.

Ok, seriousness is over.

Andy do you remember modelmania at motorsports miniatures at the old grand ave location?I still have some of my judging sheets I thought it was great to see the areas that I needed to improve and where I did well.I have no idea if that is how other judged events are run as that was my only judged event I "competed" in.otherwise it has just been nnl north.

[weasel]

Mark...

at one of our Challenges, i had a guy come up to me after a contest to inquire why a model of the same car placed higher than his [it won the class]...i asked if he REALLY wanted to know, he said yes... well, the class winner was a couple cars away from his.. they were both the same kit, so, i/we started to compare the two...the topsides were pretty even, but, when you turned the model over to see the chassis and detail, the winner was hands down a better model..no seams, everything in it place, he agreed... then, onto the interior, not even close!! the winner had WAY more interior detail, he agreed... then we looked at the motor, again, no contest, not even close!! he agreed, then after all of that, he STILL asked why he didn't even place....i just told him to try harder the next time!!

[Harry P.]

Wouldn't it make sense to keep the categories (street rod, drag, whatever)... but use a point system to judge.

Have a list of categories that each model will be judged on: paint, detail, quality of build, realism, etc. Go with a 1-10 point rating in each category... highest total points wins.

That way you take a lot of the judge's subjective likes and dislikes out of the equation. Doesn't matter if the judge "doesn't like" street rods, for example... because he would have to judge the model in each of the predetermined categories instead of just an overall "impression" he has of the model. Seems like the fairest way to judge, with the least amount of favoritism or subjectivity.

If I was to set up a contest, that's the judging system I'd use. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a popularity contest... which is fine as far as it goes (NNL type show)... but it doesn't really work well as far as determining the "best" model in each class.

[charlie8575]

back to the Hooters thing how many modelers would like to have thier model photographed for the magazine AND a shot of them with their model with a Hooters girl? your model makes the magazine and you get a trophy shot to take home with you.

Dave

I'm in!

Being single, I still wouldn't mind one as a trophy either, as suggested earlier, either. As long as she'll work around my schedule, model-building and otherwise, why not?

Charlie Larkin

[charlie8575]

A little more encouragement for the 2 kids that do show up with a built model. I'm not talking a trophy for every kid but a kit or other item that they may not have or think about getting that will help improve their skills.

Absolutely. "Everyone is special" means nobody is. Real achievement needs to be honored,and our youth are rapidly losing an understanding of that, along with many child-rearing "experts." All it does is blunt peoples' drive and competitive edges, while the rest of the world laughs at us and their kids eat our kids' lunch.

That said, I don't have a problem with a nice "certificate of participation" for the younger modelers so they do have something tangible to hold onto or display with their model if they so wish. But keep the trophies for actual quality builds.

Charlie Larkin

[Alyn]

What does that say for those of us who are both?

So, you're a woman and a Trekkie?

My favorite thing about shows is meeting and talking with fellow modelers. I'm on line a fair amount, but I only see some of these guys face to face at model shows. It's almost like a class reunion. Seeing the models is a close second. Scheduling a show to coincide with a 1:1 car show is always a plus. We have a show in Salina, Ks that I would probably not go to were it not for the excellent hot rod and custom show at the same venue.

A pet peeve of mine is a common practice during award ceremonies. Winners are announced as "2nd place, entry number 137". I'm not going to remember which numbers belong to which cars. If car number 137 was judged better than mine, I'd like to know which car it was; ie "The blue 57 Chevy gasser", or "Green Jeep low rider". Many times you'll see a truely awesome car and hope that it gets some good recognition. But, during the awards ceremony, you never find out because all they call out is the entry number. gggrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Judging does seem to vary drastically from one contest to another. Builders choice and audience choice judging can vary wildly. You can't take it seriously. I prefer the IPMS style of judging which is far more structured, logical and repeatable.

I agree with previous sentiments on the beginner classes, they are ripe for cheating by "stage mom" dads that need to see junior win something. By the same token, we need to pay more attention to these junior builders. There's a finite crop of us baby-boomer old farts that are doing most of the building. We need to find ways to nurture a new crop of young builders to take our place when we croke.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Alyn

[Pete J.]

I would like to add my opinion and persecutive on the "disappearing judges" question. From my perspective it is more a matter of contestants attitudes than judges willingness to participate. I do not know how many times I have seen contestants verbally assault judges or just generally be rude to them or each other. In fairness to the judges, they are non compensated volunteers who are at the meet for the same reason as the modelers-to have fun. How much fun do you think it is to have some high volume idiot in your face, questioning your ancestry and your integrity. Most large shows are punctuated by at least one loudmouthed individual who screams obscenities and swears he was cheated and leaves in a huff. Kind of ruins the day for all. A polite, open minded contestant who approaches a judge will almost always get a good response, but a combative and disrespectful person will get a similar response. Anyone who has judged for any length of time is a little gun shy and for good reason. Judges understand that every contestant has probably poured their heart and sole into the model that is their pride and joy. Contestants really don't like to be told what it wrong with their baby and most judges don't like being the bearer of bad news. Most discussions with a judge start from a difficult position and it seems that it is up to the judge to defuse that. It is a potential mine field that is not easy to deal with. Ever wonder why it is difficult to get enough judges to cover a large show. Obnoxious modelers are a primary reason.

[weasel]

i agree with Pete...

i'm not thin skinned, if it's a P O S, it's a P O S!!! and then i show them the difference and hopefully they take it to heart and try harder on the next one...

the same guy i was talking about in my above post actually brought the SAME car back the next year and, yep, same questions, 'cept this time he brought his Granny!!! lol

[weasel]

Possibly Harry, but also a system could be set up with the "Degrees Of Difficulty" & a 1-10 point system for each area in each degree as well. That might really work well, as the judges would be focused om every aspect of the build that way.

For NNL's I do like the idea of a popular vote, as the entire thing is & should be different from a judged contest.

or, i've seen a couple clubs have 'Masters' class's for the "Big Boys" and just the regular classes for me and you!!