Improving your modeling skills

[spkgibson]

I have been on this forum for well over a year and a half, And I have seen alot of beautifully built and detailed models,And alot of not so nicely built one, Ok my point is ,if say for example builder A , Builds a contest winning model or close to it , And builder B builds a model that looks just terrible , And they both get the same comments, Like excellent build or Nice paint ect ect, Well the point i'm getting at is if builder A's Model is by far better then Builder B's model let them know it politely ,So they can develop better modeling skills, Saying a poorly built model looks great or nice isn't helping that person out at all, It in fact is harming them, Not giving them the chance to Better there skills, I see it all the time on here , We are all great builders in our own right, But if we continue to get comments on builds that aren't that nice, Then how can anyone learn from mistakes, I still mess up ,And I have been building models from the age of 5 (snap kits) and 7 for glue kits, I just can't understand how the 2 I mentioned above can be put in the same class, I'm not slamming ANYONE on here I'm just voicing my oppinion thats all, Be alittle more thick skinned and learn from your mistakes, And if a model looks bad suggest to the builder how to better there skills, You can put as much work into a model as you want,Body work , foiling , Detailing, I could go on about it, But if the final result looks bad then It was alot of time and effort wasted on it ,In my oppinion, I have messed up so many models in the past by doing what I call speed builds , But I learned from my mistakes , So be truthful with your comments to help out the younger builders out there to help them, And by no means ,Please don't be nasty with your comments, Us older builders are the mentors for the younger generation .

[Blake Rogers]

Steve well said!!. thing is most people take things the wrong way and once they start its hard to stop (been there done that ) i think your right we should explain more in our replays but a lot easier and to make sure the people who need a wee bit of a push get it even if we have to give a long (story like) replay.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Blake Rogers

[spkgibson]

I have in the past had people suggest a little detail to put on the 77 Monaco, I built,And it made the car look alot better,I put the Lean Burn System on the air cleaner, Aside from the flaws in the kit chassis it made it look alot better, I have always thought of ways to make my models better . And I'm still learning , So by no means do I personally think I'm the best at what I do, I just see alot of things that go with building good models , Take your time and enjoy what you do, And if a project is to involved, And above your skill level Put it away for a while ,Then go back to it after you have a plan of how you can do it right. I'll go to the extremes of if someone needs help on a project that they cant figure out how to do, All they have to do is send me a PM and I'll help them to the best of my abilitys.

[Danno]

Bluesman said it well. It's just not worth the trouble.

I'm not the best builder in the world, either. But to my own credit, I'm usually my own worst critic.

But I know quality building and craftsmanship when I see it; I've judged and head-judged many significant critically-judged competitions with top notch builders on the tables.

I know outstanding building when I see it.

I know average building when I see it (right there on my bench, as an example).

And I also know sloppy, hurried, inexperienced, or just plain 'don't care' garbage-building when I see it.

I've kept my mouth shut and learned techniques and methodologies from better builders by watching, asking, and accepting constructive criticism.

I've developed better skills by accepting ideas and practicing, practicing, practicing.

One thing I've learned ... largely through internet forums including but not limited to this one ... is this: the sloppier the builder, the thinner the skin, the more defensive and quicker the temper.

Unless it is solicited, constructive criticism is usually not desired; even when solicited it is often met with wrath. And if not solicited, constructive criticism is normally best left unsaid.

I, too, cannot believe my eyes sometimes when I see a sloppy, childlike build called 'excellent' or 'best build ever' or some of the other breathless superlatives that fly around here. And I'm not even speaking of untreated injector pin marks or mold lines. When a build shows deep sanding scratches through pebbletek-pool-deck finish paint and uneven cuts and bubbled paint or 'outside the lines' detail painting or tires pointing in four different directions, or parts installed upside down, or wildly out of scale wiring/plumbing/etc., it is difficult to swallow all the fawning praise.

It is just better to bite the tongue and proceed to another thread.

But you are right -- the false praise serves only to reinforce poor building practices and techniques; it only serves to further entrench the phoney 'I'm a world-class builder' self-delusional self-image some people have. It's sad but true.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Danno

[Agent G]

Ditto all of Danno's comments.

Remember it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Difficult to be sure online of the posters intent.

You never know, that particular build with runny paint, glue marks, and crooked wheels, may just be that person's best build to date.

Oh wait, I'm describing my work.

Nevermind

G

[Green Duster]

Steve that is the differance between the Pro model builder and the Amateur modeler

like I am. I build for fun and what I want to build.

That is another reason I don't enter mine in shows anymore. I know I can't compete

with thse guys.

I'll just stay a rank amatuer.

Just my 2 cents worth. Brian.

[MikeMc]

Well I build for ME....ONLY ME.

I learned not to point out garbage and be PC and call it sweet!...If anyone points out my errors on a build....I can easily find at least a dozen more.

Real point...put your builds in a line oldest to newest. If you can see a difference or progression in each one your doing just fine.

heres mine......I switched the 60 and 69 for space

Edited December 14, 2010 by Stasch

[spkgibson]

Very good points, But if a few suggestions about how to have better builds offends people? I am far from the perfect model builder. My outlook on this topic is to give alittle advice is all, And stop putting Contest quality builds in the same class with the others, Thats like saying to everyone, Well I just finished my model and want all positive comments on it, While the Contest Quality Model gets shoved down the line. I can say one thing , Go look at my Build I did for myself, It took me 2 months to build, And it is way down the line in underglass, While certain people on here take up space commenting on what I call speed builds, I'll be the first one to tell you I think my build is Junk! I just started this thread to see what kind of reaction I would get, Be open minded if you wish , Its a hobby we all love to do .

[sobpinstriping]

Do we really need to go over this again?

[spkgibson]

  On 12/14/2010 at 6:53 PM, sobpinstriping said:

Do we really need to go over this again?

No we don't have to. I'll just keep my thoughts to myself from now on. Thats all.

[LoneWolf15]

Steve ,

While I agree wholeheartedly with what you stated ... The other gentlemen have hit the proverbial nail on the head . Nothing good comes from any of this ,although it should , it just stirs up drama instead .

I don't comment, period ! Reason being , regardless of what others claim , the camera does lie . I've seen cars that look beautiful on the forums , then to see them up close and personal at the shows... . A world of diffrence , believe me ! I'd rather praise the build to the individual at the show after I've seen it firsthand .

It never fails to amuse me when individuals will attempt to tear down a quality build , yet never put up their builds for the same scrutiny. You will find that many times that these same people are " experts " on every phase of building , giving long winded posts on exactly how to do it. Now , look at their work , they could'nt glue two pieces of styrene together without making a mess of it ! Yet , they reserve the right to be critical of work they could never even dream of producing .

Even more so .... the same people who lather praise on certain individuals builds here would be in for a rude awakening if they saw them on the show table. I am not the world's greatest modeler nor would I ever claim to be ! I do , however , have 48 years of experience under my belt which anyone is more than welcome to use anytime they need it ! There is so much talent and experience on this forum , it is mind boogling ! The fact that so many individuals don't take advantage of it is just as equally baffling to me .

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

[spkgibson]

  On 12/14/2010 at 7:11 PM, LoneWolf15 said:

Steve ,

While I agree wholeheartedly with what you stated ... The other gentlemen have hit the proverbial nail on the head . Nothing good comes from any of this ,although it should , it just stirs up drama instead .

I don't comment, period ! Reason being , regardless of what others claim , the camera does lie . I've seen cars that look beautiful on the forums , then to see them up close and personal at the shows... . A world of diffrence , believe me ! I'd rather praise the build to the individual at the show after I've seen it firsthand .

It never fails to amuse me when individuals will attempt to tear down a quality build , yet never put up their builds for the same scrutiny. You will find that many times that these same people are " experts " on every phase of building , giving long winded posts on exactly how to do it. Now , look at their work , they could'nt glue two pieces of styrene together without making a mess of it ! Yet , they reserve the right to be critical of work they could never even dream of producing .

Even more so .... the same people who lather praise on certain individuals builds here would be in for a rude awakening if they saw them on the show table. I am not the world's greatest modeler nor would I ever claim to be ! I do , however , have 48 years of experience under my belt which anyone is more than welcome to use anytime they need it ! There is so much talent and experience on this forum , it is mind boogling ! The fact that so many individuals don't take advantage of it is just as equally baffling to me .

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

Well Said!

[Jantrix]

  On 12/14/2010 at 5:03 PM, Danno said:

the phoney 'I'm a world-class builder' self-delusional self-image some people have. It's sad but true.

I think this sort is tiny minority of the folks here. I think just a few glances at the work that some of the big guns here makes us realize that we're just not there yet.

As for the subject at hand. I really don't care about the thin skinned types. If you post up work here for perusal, you would be foolish to assume that someone isn't gonna spot (and mention) that mold line that you missed. If you are too touchy about your work, don't post it.

I'd rather folks tell me exactly what I screwed up, so that I don't do them again. It's why I post in the first place. I'd prefer it over a "great job" because I'd feel good that someone cared enough about me and my work, go give it a look over and give me an honest opinion rather than a generic 'ataboy'.

I think everyone who adheres to Thumper's mama's rule of "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" are doing a disservice to the modelers that now feel ignored because everyone was too afraid of hurting feelings. Ignoring the builder and his work (happens a lot) is infinitely worse than offering criticism. You may hurt feelings if you mention the flaws, if you ignore them, you certainly will.

*steps down off the soapbox*

Edited December 14, 2010 by Jantrix

[Eric Stone]

  On 12/14/2010 at 7:39 PM, Jantrix said:

...because everyone was too afraid of hurting feelings. ...

I don't feel fear of hurting someone's feelings, I just dread the backlash or poo-storm that is sure to blow up afterward because of people defending themselves or others who are criticized, and I choose not to initiate that poo-storm or become involved in one already in progress. So yeah, I keep my mouth shut most times when I'm not blown away by someone's work.

Yeah, same result (few or no replies to a post with sub-par work), but I wanted to clarify mine (and certainly others' too) motivation for not commenting.

[Danno]

  On 12/14/2010 at 7:11 PM, LoneWolf15 said:

Steve ,

While I agree wholeheartedly with what you stated ... The other gentlemen have hit the proverbial nail on the head . Nothing good comes from any of this ,although it should , it just stirs up drama instead .

I don't comment, period ! Reason being , regardless of what others claim , the camera does lie . I've seen cars that look beautiful on the forums , then to see them up close and personal at the shows... . A world of diffrence , believe me ! I'd rather praise the build to the individual at the show after I've seen it firsthand .

It never fails to amuse me when individuals will attempt to tear down a quality build , yet never put up their builds for the same scrutiny. You will find that many times that these same people are " experts " on every phase of building , giving long winded posts on exactly how to do it. Now , look at their work , they could'nt glue two pieces of styrene together without making a mess of it ! Yet , they reserve the right to be critical of work they could never even dream of producing .

Even more so .... the same people who lather praise on certain individuals builds here would be in for a rude awakening if they saw them on the show table. I am not the world's greatest modeler nor would I ever claim to be ! I do , however , have 48 years of experience under my belt which anyone is more than welcome to use anytime they need it ! There is so much talent and experience on this forum , it is mind boogling ! The fact that so many individuals don't take advantage of it is just as equally baffling to me .

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting

Amen, Donn!

[sjordan2]

  On 12/14/2010 at 6:53 PM, sobpinstriping said:

Do we really need to go over this again?

As most of us can see, many of the same subjects keep cropping up here and on other boards, but I don't think that's a big deal. It's because they are reasonably obvious issues, and we have people who are new to the forum and new to the hobby and may not be aware of what's gone on before (like the thread on this very same subject from earlier this year, that went on for many pages). Repetitive questions will just keep happening: How do I open doors? How do I make hinges? How do I use BMF? Chrome paint? Best primer? etc. All that will continue to pop up, and this site's search engine won't help find prior threads. Might as well just respond to the questions and help direct people to good information (I said it before and I'll say it again – use the scaleautomag.com search to find technical info, then come back here for meaningful conversation).

Personally, I think this subject is worthy of comment. As to the specific topic of this thread, I find it interesting that, while we have some of the finest modelers in the craft on this forum, a good number (but not all of them) don't step in to offer constructive comments. Let the chips fall where they may with the thin-skinned guys, the rest of us will learn something.

But, as Dennis Miller would say, that's just my opinion.

Edited December 14, 2010 by sjordan2

[Nick Winter]

Gonna dump my 2 cents worth in here, I never ask for false praise only ask that rather than just saying it's not well built offer some advice on how to correct the problem. That way in theory the person will correct it and thus build a slightly better model next time. If multiple people were to do this the builder might improve greatly, I know that people who did that for me, after taking the advice they gave me, I've definatley come a long way.

Nick

[highway]

  On 12/14/2010 at 3:11 PM, spkgibson said:

And I have been building models from the age of 5 (snap kits) and 7 for glue kits, I just can't understand how the 2 I mentioned above can be put in the same class

Steve, while I agree with what you are saying about unworthy praise, I'm still trying to understand what you mean by the comment above. I've been building almost as long as you have (I checked your profile and seen you are 3 years older than me ), and I'm sorry, but I will openly admit I still build snap kits. Yes, some of those are just for the "rainy day" when I need a break from a project I'm putting a lot of work into, but there are some in my collection that are just stunning models for being snap kits. One case in point is the Revell 85 (I think, might be an 84) Camaro that was released a couple years ago in their "Basic Builders" line, and I remember the original release I had years ago that was the Camaro from the TV show "Simon & Simon". Even though it's a snap kit, it can be made into a very nice model, and is very well detailed, including the engine. It might just be me, but I would rather put some extra work into that snap kit detailing it for a show that any of the similar "junk" MPC Camaros from the same years.

Ok, with that out of my system, I think this is the best thing said in this thread, Steve.

  On 12/14/2010 at 3:11 PM, spkgibson said:

Us older builders are the mentors for the younger generation .

No truer words could ever be said!

[2002p51]

  On 12/14/2010 at 7:39 PM, Jantrix said:

As for the subject at hand. I really don't care about the thin skinned types. If you post up work here for perusal, you would be foolish to assume that someone isn't gonna spot (and mention) that mold line that you missed. If you are too touchy about your work, don't post it.

I'd rather folks tell me exactly what I screwed up, so that I don't do them again. It's why I post in the first place. I'd prefer it over a "great job" because I'd feel good that someone cared enough about me and my work, go give it a look over and give me an honest opinion rather than a generic 'ataboy'.

I think everyone who adheres to Thumper's mama's rule of "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" are doing a disservice to the modelers that now feel ignored because everyone was too afraid of hurting feelings. Ignoring the builder and his work (happens a lot) is infinitely worse than offering criticism. You may hurt feelings if you mention the flaws, if you ignore them, you certainly will.

*steps down off the soapbox*

I agree with Jantrix on this. When you come here you should be wearing your big boy pants.

Criticism, constructive or otherwise, is how things get better. Saying nothing out of the fear of hard feelings is counter productive.

We're all adults here, at least most of us, (or we all should at least act like adults) so we shouldn't need Romper Room manners.

[dougp]

I'll start off by saying I'm a new poster/member to the forums, so I dont have much of a history or reputation here. I love this site compared to the many others I am a member of or visit for information, techniques, inspiration and improvement. I was out of modeling for almost 20 years and I couldn't believe the changes that have occurred over the years so Ive been on a new learning curve for the past 18 months. This site has been the most informative and inspiring site I've been on. I have learned and done things I never thought I could do. I always use posts on this site to create a new challenge on each kit I build, so when I post a model I expect feedback so I know what I'm doing right/wrong and improvement needed. If people are that thinned skinned then they will quit posting questionable work until they improve or they'll move on. I know that seems cold to some, but that's my honest opinion. My suggestion to this, if you seek honest constructive criticism indicate in your profile, signature or somewhere Seeking Criticism, Honest Opinions Welcome, etc. That way those looking to improve can and those that dont can keep feeling good about themselves. I'll be the first by adding "Honest Opinions Welcome" to my signature.

Edited December 14, 2010 by dougp

[The Creative Explorer]

I've had problems with this too, it was yesterday that I wanted to open an new topic with the same content, same question. But experience told me to just let it be.

I see builds that are over the top, they are beyond humans haha, but I also see builds that have great flaws and get loving comments.

Even when the trimming is messy and handpainted or the paintjob is just below par, they get good comments on paint and stuff. Fine ofcourse, since there is no better motivation than getting nice comments.

But for me personally; I'd rather see a honest criticism. I've come to a point in modelling where I know the basics and every project (usually) ends beter than the one before. But I've got a long way to go, probably like 80-90% on this board I can still learn from my own mistakes.

WHAT IF; Gregg could open a "on the stands" part? Where people can post for receiving criticism? Not 'Roasts', but positive criticism, where people can learn from it.

This way people can choose wether to receive just 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' or actually helpful comment.

[sjordan2]

  On 12/14/2010 at 10:23 PM, Erik Olijnsma said:

I've had problems with this too, it was yesterday that I wanted to open an new topic with the same content, same question. But experience told me to just let it be.

I see builds that are over the top, they are beyond humans haha, but I also see builds that have great flaws and get loving comments.

Even when the trimming is messy and handpainted or the paintjob is just below par, they get good comments on paint and stuff. Fine ofcourse, since there is no better motivation than getting nice comments.

But for me personally; I'd rather see a honest criticism. I've come to a point in modelling where I know the basics and every project (usually) ends beter than the one before. But I've got a long way to go, probably like 80-90% on this board I can still learn from my own mistakes.

WHAT IF; Gregg could open a "on the stands" part? Where people can post for receiving criticism? Not 'Roasts', but positive criticism, where people can learn from it.

This way people can choose wether to receive just 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' or actually helpful comment.

This comment comes from one of the most accomplished builders in the hobby, especially in large-scale work.

Edited December 14, 2010 by sjordan2

[Danno]

  On 12/14/2010 at 8:49 PM, Nick Winter said:

Gonna dump my 2 cents worth in here, I never ask for false praise only ask that rather than just saying it's not well built offer some advice on how to correct the problem. That way in theory the person will correct it and thus build a slightly better model next time. If multiple people were to do this the builder might improve greatly, I know that people who did that for me, after taking the advice they gave me, I've definatley come a long way.

Nick

IF what you are saying here today is the truth, Nick, then let me be the first to say that it shows a great deal of growth and maturity on your part. Because it was as recent as only a few months ago that you would post a clumsily slapped together model, brag about how fast you built it, and then go ballistic if any of the more accomplished builders pointed out improvements that you could easily make or techniques you could employ to improve your models. You used to rant about how much (and how varied) experience you had, then protest that grown-ups were picking on you, a kid, if your model did not gather praise exclusively. You had a little posse that would circle wagons around you, a 'shoot out' would occur between you and your posse and the builders that offered constructive criticism, and it would invariably lead to a locked thread.

Personally speaking, I have seen improvement in your models, and in your attitude. It seemed to follow the time-out you had when your computer was out of service for a few months. So, congratulations on turning yourself around and making strides in the quality of your building effort. I truly hope you continue in this mode, for it has made you a better modeler and a better, more mature person.

Not only is constructive criticism more honest, but it is far more helpful than false praise.

Ironically, that's exactly the type of situation this thread addresses. Your change of direction is a prime example of (indeed, the posterchild for) the positivity of constructive criticism, openness, sincerity, and honesty that a free exchange can offer.

[Harry P.]

It seems so ridiculously obvious to me: if you post photos of your work on a public forum, then be prepared for comments from the members, positive and negative.

If you can't take criticism, save yourself the trauma and just don't post your work! It seems ridiculous to me when people post their work on a forum and then get angry, offended or defensive if anyone points out a problem or flaw in their work.

And the flip side of that, of course, is to keep your comments specific, direct, and if possible, offer a suggestion or solution to the problem you see. There is a difference between making an honest comment and slamming a guy.

[Nick Winter]

  On 12/14/2010 at 10:36 PM, Danno said:

IF what you are saying here today is the truth, Nick, then let me be the first to say that it shows a great deal of growth and maturity on your part. Because it was as recent as only a few months ago that you would post a clumsily slapped together model, brag about how fast you built it, and then go ballistic if any of the more accomplished builders pointed out improvements that you could easily make or techniques you could employ to improve your models. You used to rant about how much (and how varied) experience you had, then protest that grown-ups were picking on you, a kid, if your model did not gather praise exclusively. You had a little posse that would circle wagons around you, a 'shoot out' would occur between you and your posse and the builders that offered constructive criticism, and it would invariably lead to a locked thread.

Personally speaking, I have seen improvement in your models, and in your attitude. It seemed to follow the time-out you had when your computer was out of service for a few months. So, congratulations on turning yourself around and making strides in the quality of your building effort. I truly hope you continue in this mode, for it has made you a better modeler and a better, more mature person.

Not only is constructive criticism more honest, but it is far more helpful than false praise.

Ironically, that's exactly the type of situation this thread addresses. Your change of direction is a prime example of (indeed, the posterchild for) the positivity of constructive criticism, openness, sincerity, and honesty that a free exchange can offer.

Thank You Dan, I appreciate that. I really do.

Nick