Carmikeman Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 i was just wondering, with all of the vast knowledge here at the forum, what the best kit representation of a smallblock Ford Windsor engine was? does anyone make a nice resin piece? if so i can't find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon wagon Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 AMT 67 Mustang Revell 32 Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrygre Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 AMT 67 Mustang Revell 32 Ford I concur! Easily the two best and most accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Tha small block Ford in either the Revell Matt & Debbie Hay Pro Street T-bird or Pro Street Lincoln LSC kit is not too shabby, either, but it's got sa motor mount plate IIRC. It does have some very nice Ford Motorsport valve covers and a nice set of headers, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torinobradley Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 The real Ford smallblock is a fairly small motor. Think about all the cars they've been able to put them in. AC Bristols (Cobra), Sunbeam Alpines(Tigers), Focus, Miata, etc... I just pulled the 289 from my 1:1 Torino and that thing is pretty small... And IIRC, the one in the LSC and T-bird is supposed to be a 351 cleveland. It's a larger motor and completely different from the windsor motors (260, 289, 302, 351). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torinobradley Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Nope,the engine in the T-Bird is a Windsor for sure. I don't have the LSC,so I can't say what it is,but I'm 99% sure it has the same engine as the T-Bird. There's no way to confuse a Windsor for a Cleveland even in scale. Maybe it's just the LSC. Anyone know for sure? Thanks for verifying that and sorry for the erronious info... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 well, i'm seem to have gotten a fairly decent discussion on this topic. the reason i started this is, that i'm building the Model King Ford F-350 and the kit motor to that thing stinks. i am putting the 32 ford kit 302 in the truck. i thought that was a decent looking small block. as for the cleveland windsor thing, never seen a cleveland engine in a Thunderbird. the cleveland was only made from 1970 thru 1974. it was also a bigger block than the windsor. windsor heads Will fit on the cleveland with a little waterjacketing but, it takes a special intake manifold that i don' believe is made anymore and are very expensive. this is how the Boss 302 came about. 351 cleveland block + 302 windsor heads = Boss 302. as for the Thunderbird, all it ever got was the 429 in the late 60's and early 70's and the 351 windsor from 1975 on. thanks fellas for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Tha small block Ford in either the Revell Matt & Debbie Hay Pro Street T-bird or Pro Street Lincoln LSC kit is not too shabby, either, but it's got sa motor mount plate IIRC. It does have some very nice Ford Motorsport valve covers and a nice set of headers, too. Yes, Casey, I believe you are correct, that engine does have a mounting plate. For everyone else questioning the type and difference between the Hayes T-Bird and the LSC, I'm almost 100% sure that the engine is a Windsor, a Cleveland style engine has a "snout" that the distributor mounts into where the Windsor goes straight into the block. This Cleveland "snout" is also has a flat mounting surface for the water pump, where a Windsor has a shaped timing chain cover. The 351M and 400M was based from the Cleveland block, and the "snout" I mentioned cast into the block was more or less the timing cover also. The front cover on those engines was just a flat piece of metal. As for the kits themselves, both are the same kit. If you have built the T-Bird, you have also built the LSC, you jusst didn't know it! The only difference was the body, and maybe the inner door panels, I have both kits and the LSC I have to restore to one I had when they were new in the 90s is being restored with about 95% of the T-Bird parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Brown Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Why not swap in the 429 from the Revell '70 Torino kit and call it a 460? Truck that big needs a bigger engine anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 well, i'm seem to have gotten a fairly decent discussion on this topic. the reason i started this is, that i'm building the Model King Ford F-350 and the kit motor to that thing stinks. i am putting the 32 ford kit 302 in the truck. i thought that was a decent looking small block. as for the cleveland windsor thing, never seen a cleveland engine in a Thunderbird. the cleveland was only made from 1970 thru 1974. it was also a bigger block than the windsor. windsor heads Will fit on the cleveland with a little waterjacketing but, it takes a special intake manifold that i don' believe is made anymore and are very expensive. this is how the Boss 302 came about. 351 cleveland block + 302 windsor heads = Boss 302. as for the Thunderbird, all it ever got was the 429 in the late 60's and early 70's and the 351 windsor from 1975 on. thanks fellas for the info. Jim, the engine in the truck is either a 460 or a 351M, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it might be a 351M, because the 79 Bronco from the Model King I have looks like the 351M I had in my 1:1 79 Bronco. As for a Cleveland in a Thunderbird, I'm not sure about the actual Cleveland, but I had a 76 Mercury Cougar with the 351M and a 77 Ford LTD with the 400M in it. These were all the same car underneath as the T-Bird, and the M engines were called "Modifieds", because from everything I had learned on the engines, they were a modified Cleveland. If I remember correctly, the M engines had traits from both the small blocks of the era as well as the big blocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 i'm not building the truck as an F-350. it gonna be an F-150. as for the 351- 400 M u r correct about that but they are really considered big blocks because they take a 429- 460 tranny. they were the big engine instead of the 460 at that time for the Cougars. the 460 was only put in Lincolns, big Mercs and trucks. never did like the 351m. we had 3 different vehicles with them back in the day and all three drank oil, gas and 2 threw rods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Winter Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 i'm not building the truck as an F-350. it gonna be an F-150. as for the 351- 400 M u r correct about that but they are really considered big blocks because they take a 429- 460 tranny. they were the big engine instead of the 460 at that time for the Cougars. the 460 was only put in Lincolns, big Mercs and trucks. never did like the 351m. we had 3 different vehicles with them back in the day and all three drank oil, gas and 2 threw rods. The Model king F350 is a Camper special and has the extra, longbed, for a eight foot box F150 you'll need to remove 1 scale foot from the bed and correct the placement of the wheel wells. Only engines available in the '79 F150: 300 4.9L 6 cylinder, 302 5.0L V8, 351M 5.8L V8, 400 6.6L V8, and 460 7.5L V8 Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 we had 3 different vehicles with them back in the day and all three drank oil, gas and 2 threw rods. I had three of them too! The Cougar was killed when I put some of that "Restore" engine treatment in it. Yeah, the stuff gave it some more power, and seemed to help it, but it also locked up the oil pump, which killed the camshaft! I got the LTD with the 400 to replace the Cougar, never did get the swap finished, and the last was my Bronco. It was the best of the 3, except for the carb. I had to tune it alomst every 2 weeks! It liked to richen itself up, and the fuel mileage would drop to 4 MPG! I'd lean it back out and get 12 MPG! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 yeah i did have that backwards. hadn't had any sleep at the time. my bad:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 here is what i'm building. it's a 1978 Supercab that was special ordered by my Dad. just making a copy of it. bout have the cab done. started on it back when the MK truck came out a few years ago. stopped working on it, bought a house and just got my workplace set back up with all my junk. after 2 yrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stone Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 For what it's worth: length of the outboard edge of the driver's side head on my 1:1 '91 Mustang's 302: ~19.5" length of the outboard edge of the head on Revell '32 Ford: 19.54mm length of the outboard edge of the head on AMT '67 Mustang: 18.65mm BUT, if you compare the two heads, the "lump" on the ends of the '67 head don't extend to the edge where I was measuring like they do on the '32 head. I couldn't even really see the ends of the head I was measuring on my 1:1 for all the accessories, wires, lines, and poor light, so I don't know if my 1:1s have the same "lumps", and if I was measuring the lumps or not since I was measuring by feel just above the header tubes and below the valve cover. With the engine in the car, I can't measure much else on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Flowers Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 it's the other way around. the 351C heads were put on the 302 "tunnel-port" W block to make the Boss 302 You are so right on that. I own a real one it is sitting on my engine stand. I have been been wanting to get it running again one day and put it in my 79 Capri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Most Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The Revell '90-'92 Mercury Cougar kits have a pretty good small block Ford, too, about on par with the ones in the Deuce kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldscool Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The 400M was basically a Cleveland with a longer stroke which was accomodated by raising the deck height. This meant that it had a wider intake manifold than the 351 as well as a greater overall width. To the untrained eye they looked alike. grumpy gus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The 400M was basically a Cleveland with a longer stroke which was accomodated by raising the deck height. This meant that it had a wider intake manifold than the 351 as well as a greater overall width. To the untrained eye they looked alike. grumpy gus I'm not sure how it measured up with the Cleveland, but I know the 351M was just a destroked 400M, the 351M was a 3.50 inch bore and 3.50 inch stroke and the 400M was 4.00 x 4.00, or at least that what my old Chilton's I had on them said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigphoto Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Jim, the engine in the truck is either a 460 or a 351M, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it might be a 351M, because the 79 Bronco from the Model King I have looks like the 351M I had in my 1:1 79 Bronco. As for a Cleveland in a Thunderbird, I'm not sure about the actual Cleveland, but I had a 76 Mercury Cougar with the 351M and a 77 Ford LTD with the 400M in it. These were all the same car underneath as the T-Bird, and the M engines were called "Modifieds", because from everything I had learned on the engines, they were a modified Cleveland. If I remember correctly, the M engines had traits from both the small blocks of the era as well as the big blocks. Actually the engine in the F350 and Bronco are FE basded engines as the original issue mid 70's version had a 390 and they never changed the engine as they updated the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Brown Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Actually the engine in the F350 and Bronco are FE basded engines as the original issue mid 70's version had a 390 and they never changed the engine as they updated the years. The last year for the 390 in the F-series was 1977. Last year for the 360 FE was 1976. I'm pretty sure the FE series engines were never offered in the Bronco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 i don't believe the 390 was ever in a Bronco either. i don't remember if you could get a 460 in one back then or not. friend of mine had a 1978 model and his had a 400M in it, i think. which the 390 was long gone by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigphoto Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The last year for the 390 in the F-series was 1977. Last year for the 360 FE was 1976. I'm pretty sure the FE series engines were never offered in the Bronco. Very true but AMT never changed the engine tooling over the years. Even the Gen 1 Bigfoot just had Bigfoot Valve covers and an FE but the real truck ran a 460cid it was just cost saving and it worked as most builders of the day were kids and they were happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Brown Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 i don't believe the 390 was ever in a Bronco either. i don't remember if you could get a 460 in one back then or not. friend of mine had a 1978 model and his had a 400M in it, i think. which the 390 was long gone by then. No, the 400M in your friend's '78 was the biggest engine the Bronco ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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