The New NASCAR

[Harry P.]

I remember the same "women can't do this" argument when the first female drivers broke into Indy racing. Janet Guthrie, Danica Patrick and the other females were all assumed to not have what it takes.

I can see the argument for women not being able to compete with the guys in football or basketball, where physical strength and size are a big part of the game. Obviously most women can't compete with men when physical size and strength are the determining factors. But auto racing? Most of the male drivers are just tiny little things, and physical strength or agility don't really matter... I don't see why women can't be "real" racers. If women can compete in drag racing, they can compete in Indy and NASCAR and F1.

[Harry P.]

Harry, she has been racing in NASCAR, so thats why I am saying I dont think she is going to be good in the cup series

I think it's a little early to write her off. Give it a few years and then you'll have a better picture of how well she can compete in NASCAR.

[Old Sprinter]

I've seen her race at Indy, in person, and believe me she's a real racer. She has mixed it up with the big boys and has what it takes to win. There's several "want to be s" in NASCAR not as talented as Danica. We'll see what happens this year with a full ride. I think she'll get some good finishes .

[martinfan5]

You can not compare Indy car to NASCAR, period, you can not base how she is going to do in NASCAR of how she did in Indy car. For one thing, indy car has much smaller fields of cars racing, so right there thats on here side, now she is going to be racing in 43 car fields, a big differecne , and thats just for starters .

Second, I agree that there are a few male drivers in the CUP series that shouldnt have a ride, The only former Indy car driver to have any sucess in NASCAR has been Tony Stweart, She has a lot of learning to do before she will be able to hang with the top drivers in the cup sereis lap after lap, race after race.

She does have a fighting chance given who she is driving for, a good team, with a championship winning owner/driver to help her out. The ball is in her court, now its time for her to show us that she can as does belong in NASACR.

Edited January 24, 2012 by martinfan5

[brad4321]

You can not compare Indy car to NASCAR, period, you can not base how she is going to do in NASCAR of how she did in Indy car. For one thing, indy car has much smaller fields of cars racing, so right there thats on here side, now she is going to be racing in 43 car fields, a big differecne .

Second, I agree that there are a few male drivers in the CUP series that shouldnt have a ride, The only former Indy car driver to have any sucess in NASCAR has been Tony Stweart, She has a lot of learning to do before she will be able to hang with the top drivers in the cup sereis lap after lap, race after race.

Robby Gordon had success in both. And Montoya too. But yes, Indy car is the minor leagues.

[martinfan5]

Robby Gordon use's his NASCAR team to fund his other racing interest, and I am goning to keep my mouth shut on Juan Montoya, he did get a win on a road course, now its time for him to win on a oval.

To try and get this back on topic, The one thing that I love about the "new NASCAR " is the car saftey, NASCAR has done a lot of good things in the name of saftey, but its sad that it took the death of Dale Sr. to make it happen.

Edited January 24, 2012 by martinfan5

[brad4321]

Seems like it always takes a trajedy to pave the way for safety improvements.

As far as JPM, it just depends on our exact definition of success. I think winning 2 races and making a chase classifies as success, especially considering he came from F1. Look at what other F1 drivers have done, I mean not done.

[bbowser]

I've been a fan since the early '80s when I saw my first cup race in person at Dover, and I'm still a fan - still watch every lap of every race all year long. Yes, Richard and Cale and David were great drivers, the best at the time, just like Junior and Fonty and Marshall and Ralph before them. Then there was Dale (not nearly as beloved when he was alive) and Darrell and Terry and Rusty, the best of their time. Now there's Jimmie and Jeff and Tony and Kyle, the best right now. It's always been about the drivers. "Win on Sunday-sell on Monday" brought factory support and big money into the sport in the '60s. The only difference is now they're selling laundry detergent and candy instead of motor oil and Chevys. It's the American way to market the heck out of anything that might make a buck. Can Danica make it? Has Junior? As long as somebody thinks they can sell insurance, they'll get the chance.

The cars don't really matter. Back in the day everybody ran what went the fastest. Outrun by a hemi? Switch to Plymouth. Fords are bricks? Switch to Olds or Pontiac.

NASCAR has tweaked the rules over the years to level the playing field, but so has every other sport.

I'll love it until the day I'm planted.

[martinfan5]

Seems like it always takes a trajedy to pave the way for safety improvements.

As far as JPM, it just depends on our exact definition of success. I think winning 2 races and making a chase classifies as success, especially considering he came from F1. Look at what other F1 drivers have done, I mean not done.

You have a good point, I forget that he came F1, he has done a lot better the alot of the other F1 drivers have, it seems that Indy car drivers do better then F1 drivers do

[oldscool]

Sadly NHRA pro drag racing has become the same as NASCAR - a marketing tool and formula racing. All pro class cars have to be pretty much alike inside of their respective classes and real innovation not allowed. Made for TV sport.

gus

[Peter Lombardo]

Well, I have spent more time reading this thread than I have spent watching NASCAR in the last two years. You can argue all day about how the sport has changed, some good, some not so much, but the bottom line is that all changes are meant to further the chase for your dollars. And if putting a bikini clad hot babe in a car, gets guys watching and spending, it could happen. Guys, are cheerleaders on a professional football field really necessary? Do you follow along with the cheers? Really! Same is true in F1, Indy, all motorsports on that level……….actually, all professional sports on that level have one goal…get you to part with your hard earned dollars.

You can argue that you don’t spend any money watching a NASCAR race, or even a MLB ball game on TV, but the sad truth is that the sponsors factor that money into their product, so every Bud you drink contributes to the money chase.

Don’t misunderstand me, I know that is how capitalism works, I find no fault in it, I just chose to limit my exposure to the money grab.

I’ll most likely watch some of Daytona next month, but I will not be glued to the TV, I will not be sucking on a Bud while chomping on a bowl of Doritos’s and I will not be able to tell if the cars have carburetors, with or with out restrictor plates, or fuel injection.

I can foresee the day when the cars will be remote controlled…the divers will be racing the car like a video game sitting at a console with TV monitors all around them……think about it, they can crash themselves to bits and always walk away from the crash….no more emergency helicopter rides to the hospital. How cool is that!

[martinfan5]

I've been a fan since the early '80s when I saw my first cup race in person at Dover, and I'm still a fan - still watch every lap of every race all year long. Yes, Richard and Cale and David were great drivers, the best at the time, just like Junior and Fonty and Marshall and Ralph before them. Then there was Dale (not nearly as beloved when he was alive) and Darrell and Terry and Rusty, the best of their time. Now there's Jimmie and Jeff and Tony and Kyle, the best right now. It's always been about the drivers. "Win on Sunday-sell on Monday" brought factory support and big money into the sport in the '60s. The only difference is now they're selling laundry detergent and candy instead of motor oil and Chevys. It's the American way to market the heck out of anything that might make a buck. Can Danica make it? Has Junior? As long as somebody thinks they can sell insurance, they'll get the chance.

The cars don't really matter. Back in the day everybody ran what went the fastest. Outrun by a hemi? Switch to Plymouth. Fords are bricks? Switch to Olds or Pontiac.

NASCAR has tweaked the rules over the years to level the playing field, but so has every other sport.

I'll love it until the day I'm planted.

I think people take NASCAR trying to level the playing field as them fabricating the sport.

[Psychographic]

I am still in the middle for the chase, I will say after this year, it was really exciting having it go down to the last race to crown a champion, thats what the chase was to be all along , it only took eight years for it to happen

And redoing the point system to make it look close than it actually was.

[martinfan5]

Sadly NHRA pro drag racing has become the same as NASCAR - a marketing tool and formula racing. All pro class cars have to be pretty much alike inside of their respective classes and real innovation not allowed. Made for TV sport.

gus

You made a good point there, all top level racing, just like a lot of other things are made for TV now, and it has taken racing out of racing sometimes. NASCAR became a bigger marketing tool about 10 years ago, thats when the racing took a back seat. Now race tracks are built and given race's by the size of the tv market the race track is in, and not the type of track it is.

Yes it comes down to money, and where NASCAR and the networks can get the most of it.

[Harry P.]

To me the big difference between today's NASCAR and the NASCAR of years past is that now there's so much less actual competition. Back in the day, yes, they had rules that all the cars had to compy with... but there was enough latitude within the rules to allow differtent teams to do things in different ways. The cars were actually different from one another, and each team relied a lot more on whatever technical expertise they had, and "one-upsmanship" was the goal... getting the edge on the other guys with better technology, better tuning, and yes, even better cheating!

Today the whole aspect of actual competition has been practically eliminated. All the cars are identical, and it's pretty much guaranteed that nobody will have any sort of significant edge over anyone else. It's all been homogenized and sanitized and much of the character of NASCAR has been removed. Individuality has been disallowed, and corporate sameness is now the rule.

I don't have a problem with the goal being making money. ALL professional sports (and college sports) is about making money. That's just a given. But they've stripped out all of that "good old boy" individuality out of NASCAR in their attempt to make it less of a regional "redneck thang" and to appeal to people outside of the traditional fan base.

They've been successful in doing that... growing NASCAR to levels that Richard Petty probably never imagined. But the cost was pretty high: they took out all the character.

[brad4321]

You have a good point, I forget that he came F1, he has done a lot better the alot of the other F1 drivers have, it seems that Indy car drivers do better then F1 drivers do

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and thus their drivers are far superior to that of Indy, generally speaking. But you're still correct about their drivers having less success and I would attribute this to yhe fact that Indy is an American series.

Well, I have spent more time reading this thread than I have spent watching NASCAR in the last two years. You can argue all day about how the sport has changed, some good, some not so much, but the bottom line is that all changes are meant to further the chase for your dollars. And if putting a bikini clad hot babe in a car, gets guys watching and spending, it could happen. Guys, are cheerleaders on a professional football field really necessary? Do you follow along with the cheers? Really! Same is true in F1, Indy, all motorsports on that level……….actually, all professional sports on that level have one goal…get you to part with your hard earned dollars.

You can argue that you don’t spend any money watching a NASCAR race, or even a MLB ball game on TV, but the sad truth is that the sponsors factor that money into their product, so every Bud you drink contributes to the money chase.

Don’t misunderstand me, I know that is how capitalism works, I find no fault in it, I just chose to limit my exposure to the money grab.

I’ll most likely watch some of Daytona next month, but I will not be glued to the TV, I will not be sucking on a Bud while chomping on a bowl of Doritos’s and I will not be able to tell if the cars have carburetors, with or with out restrictor plates, or fuel injection.

I can foresee the day when the cars will be remote controlled…the divers will be racing the car like a video game sitting at a console with TV monitors all around them……think about it, they can crash themselves to bits and always walk away from the crash….no more emergency helicopter rides to the hospital. How cool is that!

The problem in this line of thinking is that the sport is going downhill. I go to 4-6 races a year and attendance is WAY down. Tracks that used to sell out are literally half full. And dont blame the economy because football and basketball are dealing with the same economy. Im OK with a sport chasing a dollar. Thats why a business exists. But it seems Nascar is chasing the dollar away with one stupid rules change after another. But even as I complain, I think they put a very good product out there.

[martinfan5]

And redoing the point system to make it look close than it actually was.

Are comparing the old system to the new? , then sure there is going to be a difference, but the old system is not being used, so it was close finish .

[brad4321]

To me the big difference between today's NASCAR and the NASCAR of years past is that now there's so much less actual competition. Back in the day, yes, they had rules that all the cars had to compy with... but there was enough latitude within the rules to allow differtent teams to do things in different ways. The cars were actually different from one another, and each team relied a lot more on whatever technical expertise they had, and "one-upsmanship" was the goal... getting the edge on the other guys with better technology, better tuning, and yes, even better cheating!

Today the whole aspect of actual competition has been practically eliminated. All the cars are identical, and it's pretty much guaranteed that nobody will have any sort of significant edge over anyone else. It's all been homogenized and sanitized and much of the character of NASCAR has been removed. Individuality has been disallowed, and corporate sameness is now the rule.

I agree with most of this. And this is why I dont understand why F1 isn't enjoyed in the US more. The teams actually design their own cars and engines and transmissions. Problem with this is teams do develop an edge and the races become predictable and people dont want to watch.

[martinfan5]

To me the big difference between today's NASCAR and the NASCAR of years past is that now there's so much less actual competition. Back in the day, yes, they had rules that all the cars had to compy with... but there was enough latitude within the rules to allow differtent teams to do things in different ways. The cars were actually different from one another, and each team relied a lot more on whatever technical expertise they had, and "one-upsmanship" was the goal... getting the edge on the other guys with better technology, better tuning, and yes, even better cheating!

Today the whole aspect of actual competition has been practically eliminated. All the cars are identical, and it's pretty much guaranteed that nobody will have any sort of significant edge over anyone else. It's all been homogenized and sanitized and much of the character of NASCAR has been removed. Individuality has been disallowed, and corporate sameness is now the rule.

You made some very good points there, and I have to agree with all of them, NASCAR has become very watered down, and very much on the lines of must keep PR correct, its very vanllia.

With the COT, there really is not alot of play room with it, teams are in a very small box as to what they can do to the cars, it used to be a much bigger box, but with the COT that changed .

[bbowser]

I agree with most of this. And this is why I dont understand why F1 isn't enjoyed in the US more. The teams actually design their own cars and engines and transmissions. Problem with this is teams do develop an edge and the races become predictable and people dont want to watch.

The reason F1 isn't watched more is because it's all over after the first turn!

[Rob Hall]

I agree with most of this. And this is why I dont understand why F1 isn't enjoyed in the US more. The teams actually design their own cars and engines and transmissions. Problem with this is teams do develop an edge and the races become predictable and people dont want to watch.

Well, the lack of a US race and American drivers is certainly part of the problem why more people in the US don't follow it. I've been watching since the late '70s. One problem w/ F1 today is it seems the pole sitter usually wins...the dull Tilke tracks make overtaking difficult. I don't care for the artificiality of DRS either.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Rob Hall

[Old Sprinter]

Big changes going to be happening in Indy Cars as well. They have a new sheriff in charge who was the lead guy running the bull riding for the pro Rodeo cicuit. That caught on big and pays huge prize money. The cars will be different; not all the same motors and areo packages. This league is not a minor, lower level; it's the real deal and about 40 mph faster than stock cars. It was, at one time, the elite place for the top drivers to race in. I believe it will return to that status in the next few years.

[Harry P.]

The reason F1 isn't watched more is because it's all over after the first turn!

I think many American race fans see F1 as very much a "foreign" or "European" thing, whereas NASCAR is very much an American thing. That alone will keep F1 in the US well behind NASCAR in popularity.

[Rob Hall]

I'm looking forward to the '12 Indy Car season...went to 3 races last year (Long Beach, Indy 500, Sonoma) will probably go to a couple this year..

[martinfan5]

I'm looking forward to the '12 Indy Car season...went to 3 races last year (Long Beach, Indy 500, Sonoma) will probably go to a couple this year..

The closet I have been to a Indy car race was being at PIR when the Cart series was racing there back in the late 90's