LoneWolf15 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I decided to use the Revell ' 48 Ford tires and wheels on my chopped Merc build . When it came time to slide the body over top , I had tire rub on the front , so , back to the drawing board , Dimbulb ! When I disassembled the wheels and tires , the steelies edges were all sticky as were the wheel backings . Now , I know for a fact that the parts were flashed out when I initially assembled them , so that is surely not the cause . I do believe that a chemical reaction occurred between the Testors enamel and the tires themselves . The edges on all four wheels had a black sticky residue that only could have come from the tires themselves . The tires in this kit are a work of art unto themselves , it would be a crying shame here if my suspicions prove to be correct ! Anybody else run into this ?
62rebel Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 i've had vinyl tires that seemed to have enough (solvent? gas? i don't know) in them to react with chrome wheels or bare plastic, to the extent that they "welded" to the rim. i know that enamel reacts with vinyl by staying soft indefinitely... i don't have the new tires on hand, but i do have some from the Revell Merc....
Jon Cole Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Oh, this can't be good. Perhaps wrap each wheel with BMF to act as a barrier?
MikeMc Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Donn.....Thats why I shoot .......lacquer Or cover them with some future. (the wheels) Edited February 7, 2012 by MikeMc
LoneWolf15 Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 Donn.....Thats why I shoot .......lacquer Hmmm ! I had a feeling you were going to chime in on this , Laquer Lad ! Part that concerns me , will they react to laquer the same way they did with the enamel ? They truly are a beautiful tire , without a doubt ! I can honestly say that this is the very first time I've ever encountered this situation . I know it wasn't the glue because they snapped in and were a very tight fit , none was needed . Or cover them with some future. (the wheels)
Draggon Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I had some Revell pro stock front tires react with Tamiya paint. They were mocked up without paint for a year or so, but after I applied the paint in a few months they started to bleed. Im gonna take them apart and try putting future on the surfaces that will touch the tires.
Art Anderson Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 What is happening here is that the "soft" PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) tire is reacting with the hard styrene it's touching--that's been an issue off-and-on for as long as model car kits have had PVC tires. The "plasticizer" used, if not recaptured in the manufacturing process, "leaches" out of the PVC, and performs it's softening action on styrene, and whatever paint is applied to it (regardless of the type of paint--be it enamel, lacquer, or acrylics, it will be attacked as well). Back in the 1960's and early 1970's, Revell kits were NOTORIOUS for this--so much so, that the melting of styrene plastic wheels was termed "Revell Tire Disease". The only cure for the problem is at the factory level, and they can solve the problem. As for prevention, yes this can be prevented, but it takes a thin layer of metal or epoxy glue to prevent the PVC plasticizer from penetrating ajacent paint or styrene. Perhaps the easiest is to use a strip of Bare Metal Foil on the rims of the wheels, but a thin coating of say, DevCon 5-minute epoxy has been known to work as well. Art
62rebel Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 thanks Art; if anyone had the X-file on it, you would!
Eshaver Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Would one of the Moderators post Art's comments so that anyone here can easily reference what he took time to share ? Ed Shaver
Rob McKee Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 That`s really good to know. I haven`t run into this problem before but I sure would be frustrated if I did. Now I know. Thanks Art
58 Impala Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Does anyone know if an automotive catalized clear coat would work to prevent this reaction?
62rebel Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 what about an acrylic appropriate to the wheel color?
Art Anderson Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 i've also had resin tires eat styrene wheels too, so it's not just an issue limited to vinyl tires, althought they are much more well known for doing so. in the case i mentioned above with the '32 Ford wheels, the vinyl tire didn't not attack the styrene wheel, just the lacquer paint and primer, the wheel underneath is fine. i have a whole pile of the wheel eating Revell tires from the 60's, it's a shame too because a lot of them were nice tires that i'd really like to use Dave, ultimately the PVC will attack the underlying styrene, in my experience. Art
Roncla Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Does anyone know if an automotive catalized clear coat would work to prevent this reaction? It has worked for me. I used to spray gloss black enamel then chrome alclad and I've had the black turn sticky too. These days I spray black primer then a coat of catalized clear coat followed by alclad and problem has gone away. With the number of different manufactures of clear coats and different brands of tires you really need to do your own tests before taking it for granted that it will work with what you are working with Edited February 9, 2012 by Roncla
LoneWolf15 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 Thus the reason for me asking in the first place . I can honestly say in 50 years of modeling ( ye gods ) , I have never encountered this problem before ! Reason for this became clear after Dave's first post , I avoided the Revell kits like the plague through the ' 60's and ' 70's . Never had it happen with an Amt or Johan kit which were my preferred choice back in the day . I just wanted to give everybody a " heads up " on this . Forewarned is forearmed , thus the purpose of the post .
Harry P. Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I don't know why they even bother with vinyl tires. Put 'em on the parts tree, fer crying out loud. There's no reason they have to be black vinyl; styrene painted a realistic shade of black would look more like real rubber tires than any vinyl tire does.
LoneWolf15 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 Ahhh ! Jeez , Harry ! No , no and no ! We went that route a long time ago ! They were the worst thing ever released ! I can deal with the current situation , just please don't take us back to plastic tires !
Chuck Most Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I have a love/hate relationship with styrene and resin tires. Simple fact I don't like plastic tires is because the majority of them just don't look right. Now, yes, there are always exceptions- the slicks in the AMT Munster Coach and Dragula kits come to mind, but for the most part, a painted plastic tire still looks like, well, a painted plastic tire. The resin stuff from places like Modelhaus are fantastic, but I really don't want to have to buy a set of tires for everything I build! I always wondered why some kit manufacturers used a material for the tires known to react adversely to styrene. I've been hearing of this problem for years, I've even seen the results of it firsthand, but the practice continues. But then again- GM used to love bolting steel up to thin aluminum. Aluminum and steel don't react to well together either... that's why you used to see so many RWD Delta 88s and Cutlass Supremes missing the rear bumper.
slantasaurus Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) you don't expect to have issues like that now, when it was a known problem in the 60's and early 70's and apparently "fixed". with the way that some of the newer kits are again coming with soft vinyl tires i hope it's not a problem again I think everyone is missing the real problem here. Yes, this has been an issue in the past and the manufacturers found the problem and corrected it. The problem now is where the kits are being made, China not the USA. When Revell had this problem years ago the kits were made in house and they made sure they corrected the problem of recapuring the plasticizer, as Art stated. Now the kits are being made in China, they have no knowlage (or just don't care) about this. What we all need to do is make Revell aware of this problem so they can put the screws to the Chineese company that does their kits to correct the problem. Otherwise, we will be dealing with it for sometime to come. Next, we need to figure out if this is a problem with all Revell tires or just on the 48 Ford kit. Maybe there is/was just a bad batch with the first run of tires. If its just the 48 Ford tires they Revell can isolate the problem, if its all tires they something has to change in the manufacturing. Either way, Revell needs to be made aware of the problem or it won't get fixed. Edited February 9, 2012 by slantasaurus
jerseyjunker1 Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 i use ruber cement on all my models tires. i even make my own tires out of soft rubber and never have any problems with them. it holds like iron and if you have to take them apart it comes of easy. get some goop clear for crafts or plumbing. i like the latter best.
Harry P. Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I think everyone is missing the real problem here. Yes, this has been an issue in the past and the manufacturers found the problem and corrected it. The problem now is where the kits are being made, China not the USA. When Revell had this problem years ago the kits were made in house and they made sure they corrected the problem of recapuring the plasticizer, as Art stated. Now the kits are being made in China, they have no knowlage (or just don't care) about this. First of all, why would you assume that the Chinese don't know about this? Second... the kits are manufactured in China, but they're made for Revell. Revell surely knows about the problem... it's up to REVELL to do something about it, not the company they contracted to do the manufacturing. If the material they're using for kit tires is reacting with the kit parts, it's up to Revell to tell their contractor to change the formula or to use a different material. If a US car company has a plant in Mexico that assembles a certain car, and they find a defect in that car, like a bearing that wears too quickly or a bad transmission or whatever, who is responsible for fixing the flaw? The Mexican worker on the assembly line, or GM?
Harry P. Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I think car modelers are at least partly to blame. They are notoriously cheap. The price of a kit is the overriding factor for a lot of them, and they want kits cheap! My guess is that vinyl tires are cheaper than real rubber ones, so the kit manufacturers use the cheaper stuff. The high-end kits use better tires, it's the cheap mass-market kits aimed at the average modeler (and kid) that use the cheap tires.
Harry P. Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 that's actually a good question Harry, are rubber tires in kits more expensive than doing them in vinyl. I don't know for sure, but that would be my guess. All the high-end diecasts (Danbury, AutoArt, etc.) use rubber tires, not vinyl. You really only see the vinyl on cheaper kits and low-end (toy) diecasts... so my assumption is that real rubber tires cost more.
Draggon Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I agree with Dave. All the japanese kits I have have got beautiful rubber tires that look way much better than any vinyl does. Ive said it before, if the japanese can farm the rubber tires out to small companies we should be able to do that also. Then we could do like Aoshima, and have wheel/tire sets available separately.
Harry P. Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I agree with Dave. All the japanese kits I have have got beautiful rubber tires that look way much better than any vinyl does. Ive said it before, if the japanese can farm the rubber tires out to small companies we should be able to do that also. Then we could do like Aoshima, and have wheel/tire sets available separately. The Japanese model manufacturers (in general) have been outperforming the American ones for a long time.
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