curt raitz Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 If you so desire I can send you a pdf.file of Issue #23 of Model Racing Magazine which featured the Wasp. Will have to do it via email...cuz I can't drop a pdf.file on this reply I can be contacted at ceraitz@gmail.com just let me know Curt Raitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 email sent. BTW, you can attach files to PMs, just for future reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 With all due respect to Harry P, it would be FAR easier to do this car in 1/25, if one is going to kitbash/modify a kit, simply because there is so much more available. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 With all due respect to Harry P, it would be FAR easier to do this car in 1/25, if one is going to kitbash/modify a kit, simply because there is so much more available. Art Maybe so... but I don't do small scale. Heck, to me, 1/16 is small! That's about as small as I want to go. And I'd love to do this in 1/8 scale, but if I do, it'll be curbside-style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Neil Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Harry, Here is the R&C for sale on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rod-Custom-Magazine-June-1965-The-Marmon-Wasp-/390393008959?pt=Magazines&hash=item5ae53c933f This sounds like a fun project. You have me thinking about this myself. I have seen the Wasp at the museum, what struck me was how big it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Harry, Here is the R&C for sale on eBay http://www.ebay.com/...=item5ae53c933f This sounds like a fun project. You have me thinking about this myself. I have seen the Wasp at the museum, what struck me was how big it was. Yes, the Marmon Wasp is a very large car, but then, every car in that first 500 was a large car (Henry Ford had one of his engineers, Frank Kulik, work up a race car from a 1910 Model T Ford, dubbed "999-II" for that first race, only to be denied entry as it was too small and too light to meet the rulebook!). Carl Fisher and James Allison (Fisher was the owner of Prest-O-Lite, the acetylene headlight manufacturer and ultimately Union Carbide, Allison the owner of Allison Engineering which became Allison Division of GM, now owned by Rolls Royce--still in business in Indianapolis) had a vision of the Speedway being a "proving ground" and a place of competition between automakers; so the cars in that first race were essentially modified stock production automobiles, and most of those back then were large cars. What does strike people, particularly when the Wasp is displayed on the floor of the Museum (for most of the life of the Hall of Fame Museum facility, it's been shown on the raised, "Brickyard" platform as the first car one would see upon entering the museum proper) is how low-slung it really is, certainly in comparison with race cars from the 1912 and 1913 500 Mile Races. This is due to the single seat configuration--all the other cars in 1911 were two-man cars (driver and riding mechanic) whose seating was necessarily on top of the frame rails, while the driver's seat that Ray Harroun used is actually down between the frame rails, so the bodywork could be lower. Then there is the matter of that long, "scorpion-like" tail fairing--no other car had anything like that in '11, all the other entries having fuel tanks mounted transversely, with at least one spare tire out back, making for a race car whose overall length was little more than the dimension between the front of the front tires and the rear of the rear tires. It would not be until the 1919 Indianapolis 500 before the race would see cars with long tail fairings again. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I have scans of Joe Henning's how to article in Rod & Custom. I won't post them here, so as not to embroil MCM in any copyright issues, but a PM or email to me will work, if anyone wants them, Bear in mind though, Henning concieved this model project in 1965 or 1966, 48 years ago, built around the then-newly released MPC 1928 Lincoln Sport Phaeton kit, which he used for the frame, with modifications, so the dimensions may not be all that correct, but the models I have seen built from this are certainly stunning nonetheless. The article contains two pages of drawings, one giving overall dimensions, showing the car in 4 views (top, side, front, rear) and the second page showing the body parts, cut out, with all fold lines dotted in (this is a body shell that gets made up by rolling and folding Strathmore Board, which was a very commonly used artist's card stock back then, but perfectly translatable to either thin sheet styrene, or even brass for the less faint-of-heart. All you need do is ask! Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I have that kit. I'll take a look. Harry, Here's some photos of the Stutz Racer I built for Lindberg for comparison if you want to use if for a starting point. There's more photos of it and of the Mercedes Racer build in my Lindberg Album. http://public.fotki....ects/page5.html -Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Beautiful model, Steve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I also found photos of the car ranging from a bright lemon yellow to a very "orangey" dark yellow, which is what the real color probably was (not "orange" as we might imagine "orange" to be, but more of a "schoolbus yellow" color). I hope that I did this Quote thing right . Anyway think of Petty blue when thinking of the color and why it was thought of orange at one time . It was 1910 when it was put together money was not spent like it is today on a race car . Could they have just mixed what they had in cans and there it is A dark yellow orange kind of color. The car is what it is in the old before untouched colors . It does not look like a bright yellow to me (that is just my eye ) , I also do not think that yellow darkens with age .Just my 10 cents worth . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I hope that I did this Quote thing right . Anyway think of Petty blue when thinking of the color and why it was thought of orange at one time . It was 1910 when it was put together money was not spent like it is today on a race car . Could they have just mixed what they had in cans and there it is A dark yellow orange kind of color. The car is what it is in the old before untouched colors . It does not look like a bright yellow to me (that is just my eye ) , I also do not think that yellow darkens with age .Just my 10 cents worth . Answer: The black & white elmusion used on both film and glass plates as well as in printing photographs prior to about 1930 did not give a very good gradation in gray tones of many colors, unlike the silver nitrate B&W film that followed it. As an example, anything that was white in color, would come out a very bright white, regardless of the "tone" of white (this is why the early "natural latex" automobile tires, prior to the introduction of carbon black, almost always photographed stark white, when in fact they tended to be a rather dark cream color in real life. Yellows were notorious for showing up quite dark in that primitive black & white process. As I noted near the beginning of this thread, I have a DVD of the Firestone Tire & Rubber film of the 1946 Indianapolis 700, probably the first Indy 500 Mile Race to be filmed in color. The first 10-15 minutes of this DVD consists of a conversation between Wilbur Shaw (Indy winner 1937, 1939-40) who was President of IMS 1945-54 and Ray Harroun, driver of the Marmon Wasp and winner of the 1911 Indianapolis 500 Mile Race. Harroun is seated in the Wasp throughout the conversation/interview, and the car is featured very prominently,. and it was then orange yellow in color. The Wasp carried, at that date, lettering proclaiming it as the winner of the first 500, and the paintwork was quite old, checked and peeling off in spots (very common with the brushed enamel paintjobs on cars in 1911, which were coated with clear varnish to get a shiny paintjob. In addition, one of my books on the Indianapolis Motor Speedway has a photograph of the Wasp, taken about 1930 with that exact paintjob. Further, an article in one of the early Floyd Clymer Publications "Indianapolis 500 Mile Race Yearbook" (I believe either 1952 or 1953) clearly stated that the Wasp was located, in it's original configuration and paintwork on a farm near Indianapolis in the late 1940's, the farm having been the home of the then retired Howard Marmon, founder and principal owner of Marmon Automobile Company, and after the demise of Marmon in 1932, a partner in the firm of Marmon-Herrington (with Arthur Herrington, known for his pioneering work in 4WD trucks). The Clymer article goes on to state that Karl Kizer, who was the retired owner of Century Tire Company in Indianapolis from before the Speedway was built until the late 1940's, and perhaps the one person working with Anton Hulman Jr, owner of the Speedway, to start a collection of cars that had raced on the Speedway, said the Wasp was in all original condition when located on Howard Marmon's farm, in fact it was the first race car purchased by Hulman Old Wheels (Tony Hulman was one of the founders of AACA in 1935, when that club was primarily a group of enthusiasts preserving antique cars rather than restoring them). Kiser was a crusty old sort, by all accounts, but he was a walking encyclopedia of old race cars, dozens of racing teams having used his large facilities at Century Tire to build and maintain their race cars back in the day. The "controversy" here comes from a quote from Ray Harroun in the 1950's (Harroun retired from racing on May 30, 1911, in Victory Lane at the Speedway, went back to work as an engineer at Marmon, worked for a number of different manufacturers, including his own automobile company, retiring at the age of 79, passed away in 1968). In an interview prior to the 50th Anniversary 500 in 1961 (during pre-race festivities, at the age of 82, Harroun stated that the car was "orange". Now, anyone old enough to remember grownups even in the early 1950's descrbing colors--"orange" could mean anything between a very reddish orange, to almost a bright yeloow (My parents often referred to yellow school busses as being "orange", and that statement is what Joe Henning apparently based his comments on in the Rod & Custom article. However, given the guidance of the late Karl Kizer, and the meticulous research and work by the late Barney Wimmer and the still active Bill Spoerle who restored most of the Indy Cars that are owned by the Speedway Museum, I find it hard to argue with the restoration, done in 1955-56, of the Marmon Wasp. One final note: The 1911 Indianapolis 500 Mile Sweepstakes (the 500 Mile Race's official name for decades) was also the first Indy 500 to have been recorded on movie film--the majority of the footage having been shot by one Henry Ford himself!. Ford caught many scenes of the Wasp at the end of the frontstretch and going through Turn 1--see this clip from the film . At 3:20, there is a shot of Ray Harroun, sitting in the car after his win--the paintwork is clearly visible around the cockpit, including the black pinstriping. It comes across as MUCH lighter than the more famous "finish line" shot of the Wasp. Clear indication to me, and several who have modeled this car over the years, that the car was at best an "orange yellow", not the darker "red-orange" that most of us visualize when the noun "orange" pops up. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Thank you for the Info Art . It was a good video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroNitro Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Every time I see old footage of the race I am amazed at the dust. Art is it just me or does it look like the car sat lower than it does now. Even the wheels look to be a smaller diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Every time I see old footage of the race I am amazed at the dust. Art is it just me or does it look like the car sat lower than it does now. Even the wheels look to be a smaller diameter. Jim, Perhaps some of that is optical illusion, but having seen the Wasp out on the racetrack, as well as many times at floor level in the Museum, it is far lower than one might imagine for a car of its era. but only in its bodywork. Why you ask? Well, in a conventional 2-man race car of the time frame 1911 through 1921, the driver's and riding mechanic's seats actually sat somewhat outboard of the frame rails, which necessitated their being mounted quite a bit ABOVE the frame rails, to give a reasonable driving position (the riding mechanic almost always had a seat as high above the floorboards as the driver on almost all of those cars). However, remember that Ray Harroun designed the Wasp from a stock Marmon Model 32 touring car chassis, as a "monoposto" or single seat race car, with the steering column mounted dead center. What Joe Henning missed in his neat model Wasp project is the belly pan! The belly pan ran from just behind the bottom of the radiator to just beneath the gasoline tank (the body section immediately behind the cockpit). This allowed Harroun to position his seat down pretty much just on top of the frame rails, if not a bit lower so as to be between the rails themselves. That gave him a much lower position in the car than was possible in any other car in the 1911 field. Now, the space for his legs and feet had to have been pretty crowded, what with the open cone-shaped clutch and flywheel just in front of his shoes, and a steering reduction gear consisting of three or 4 spur gears below the forward end of the steering column (yes, those gears are there, I've seen them but it's been almost 17 years since that "after hours open house" that the Speedway Museum held in November 1995 for members of model car clubs from the area). Next, the Wasp has approximately a 60" (5') treadbase (the distance between the centerline of the tires side-to-side), which with that low profile/frontal area, makes the car look very low slung, that that is all in the bodywork. In the pic I posted way up above in this thread, Joe Dawson's 1912 National which won the 500 in 1912 is right behind (next to) the Wasp. Both cars have very close to the same frame height, but the National's profile is significantly taller than the Wasp--so your observation of the low-slung appearance of the Wasp in the video--on the racetrack at speed--is quite correct. As for the wheels and tires, the wheels and wheel covers (which are both inboard and outboard, BTW, on each wheel) ARE the original wheels for the Wasp, and they are large--tire size approximately 36" (those old high pressure, clincher rim, straight sided tires were described by the outside diameter of the tread, as opposed to the later description by inside diameter of the tire bead along with the rim width!). Incidently, that is a very common size tire from that era, most large cars used them, including the Stutz cars 1912-about 1916 or so, which is why I suggested wheels and tires from the MPC 1914 Stutz Bearcat! Now, couple up the low driver's position, and the consequently low and NARROW bodywork, along with the fairly wide treadbase, and you have a formula for a car that looks low, even with the frame height, exaggerated by the very long "stinger" tail cone. So yes, the Wasp does appear very low in the film footage shot from the grandstands (most of that film footage was shot by non other than Henry Ford, BTW!) due to the high angle, but when you see that classic pic of the Wasp crossing the finish line for the victory, that was shot at a very low angle, which makes the car look quite tall (and it certainly is, when compared to any race car from the 1920's and beyond!). A 36" diameter tire isn't all that large actually, when one considers that Model T Fords (such as the legendary AMT kits) used 30X3 1/2 tires on ALL wood spoked wheels 1908-25. (that's 30" outside diameter over the tread, on a 3.5" wide rim, BTW). And yes, having seen the Marmon Wasp running on the Speedway numerous times in my life, it does look both high and tall, but has that image of being lower than its contemporaries (and it is, for sure, in terms of side profile and frontal area than any other racecar 1911-1916 or so. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Every time I see old footage of the race I am amazed at the dust. Art is it just me or does it look like the car sat lower than it does now. Even the wheels look to be a smaller diameter. What you think of as dust is actually oil smoke! Those race cars used castor oil, for its superior lubricating ability (castor oil was used in racing engines clear into the late 1950's, BTW). As for the "dust" on the track surface (looks almost like snow in the film tootage), that was sand which was thrown onto the bricks to try and counteract the oil that every car dripped, spilled and sprayed on the bricks in those days before gaskets that really worked to contain motor oil. It was thought at the time that sand would provide improved traction, just as sand is sprayed under the driving wheels of a railroad locomotive for added traction, but on the racetrack, it arguably made things worse (rubber tires on brick don't behave in anything like the manner of steel flanged wheels on steel rails!), and the practice ceased at Indy very quickly. But it sure makes for some fascinating film tootage! Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Just watching the video shot at Coker Tire Company in Chattanooga (maker of all manner of reproduction tires mostly from original tire molds). "Corky" Coker says that the tire size is 34.5 X 4.5, meaning a 34.5" outside tread diameter by 4.5" rim width. So there ya go! The MPC Stutz Bearcat has the closest wheel/tire size available, unless one has a lathe and a mill! If one looks closely at this video, a lot of the construction I mention is shown! Art Edited March 8, 2012 by Art Anderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 I have a ton of great reference photos (all found online)... plus Curt Raitz sent me a PDF of an old magazine article on building a scale model of the car, showing basic dimensions, exterior details, etc. I have good shots of the interior, front and rear axles, all sorts of detail shots... I even found an online build log of an exact full-scale working clone being made from the ground up, with tons of good photos showing the process from start to finish. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?showall=1&t=596726 Now I need a shot of the underside of the car showing what the bottom looks like. I can't find a photo of that anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I have a ton of great reference photos (all found online)... plus Curt Raitz sent me a PDF of an old magazine article on building a scale model of the car, showing basic dimensions, exterior details, etc. I have good shots of the interior, front and rear axles, all sorts of detail shots... I even found an online build log of an exact full-scale working clone being made from the ground up, with tons of good photos showing the process from start to finish. http://www.jalopyjou...wall=1&t=596726 Now I need a shot of the underside of the car showing what the bottom looks like. I can't find a photo of that anywhere. A "sorta Replicar" but definitely not even close to being a clone! I have no idea where they scrounged up that engine, but Marmon Model 32 it isn't (it has two blocks 3-cyl each, where the real Wasp's engine is 3 2-cylinder blocks). And that rear axle? Not hardly, not even remotely similar in appearance to the Marmon rear axle. And all that steel framing for the cockpit area? That wouldn't have happened in 1911--if there was any framing in that body, it would have been wood (Ash, most likely). As for the belly pan, check that large color pic I posted way back near the start of this thread--I think you can get the basic shapes of it from that pic. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 ok, thanks, Art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 This a great forum ! Learned something new again today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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