Duplicolor paint health concerns?

[Aaronw]

I recently bought some lumber at home depot, and saw there are now warning signs that California has determined wood dust is hazardous. A warning label on wood... so yes sometimes California does seem kind of silly.

On the otherhand my Grandmother lived in Los Angeles and when I would visit her as a kid in the 70s I never knew there were mountains there (big ones too) because you couldn't see them through the smog. By the 90s the air cleared up enough so you could see them even on the worst days. I'm not talking about mountains way off in the distance either, they are on the edge of the city.

California is a special case so it does make sense we have our own standards. 10% of the US population is in this state that occupies only 4% of the landmass. Of that 33 million, 30 million live in the lower 2/3 of the state west of the sierras so they really cram them into the remaining 1/2 or so of the area that is left. The Los Angeles area alone houses more than half of the states population (18 million).

We keep trying to get people to leave but they just keep piling in more every year.

[Dave Van]

We keep trying to get people to leave but they just keep piling in more every year.

CA does do a good job there. My buddy and his dad live in a house they bought and paid outright in 1968. But their taxes and fees make a monthly payment that is more than many folks mortgage AND taxes in other states. I am no California hater....lived there a long time. But like a guy that constantly is hitting his hand with a hammer.....until he stops he doesn't realize how much it hurt.

On top of all that....I am planning my next long visit to So Cal!!!

[CEKPETHO BCE]

Having worked in a body shop as a painter for about 20 years I can tell you from experience you do not want to inhale paint.

To answer your question from my perspective it all depends what you are spraying.

Lacquers dry very fast so most of the overspray you see in the air is dust. The very least I wear a disposable 3M particle mask such as on this site.

http://3mcollision.c...isposable-masks

Enamels are much different in the overspray stays wet for a lot longer. So what you see in the air is actually wet paint and you do not want that in your lungs. You should wear a rubber charcoal filter mask that makes a good seal on your face. Full face is also an option but they have a tendicy to steam up.

Urethane is another cirtter all in itself. This is very dangerous stuff and you should wear full protection from any contact with it.

This is where you see painters wearing full bio-hazard suits with fresh air being pumped into their mask. Spraying this is like spraying honey.. It will stick to everything including your skin. It should be used with caution and do not spray it in your house or around anyone who is not protected.

I actually quit working in the industry shortly after urethanes were introduced. I figured if I had to wear a bio-hazard suit with pumped in air I wasn't going to risk my health. I always wear the appropiate respirator for the job and I always try to wet sand if I can.

Thanks for the insightful information.

What is urethane by the way? And also how dangerous are lacquer paint thinners if used to thin enamel paint? Another thing, is enamel harmful when brush painted as well or only when sprayed?

I also use disposable masks, but after reading all this will try to get a real respirator with filters.

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Edited March 31, 2012 by CEKPETHO BCE

[Kit Basher]

When spraying enamels thinned with lacquer thinner, I wear a respirator. When brush painting with enamels, I do not.

[RobRus]

Urethane is a 2 part paint, part 1 is the paint and part2 is a hardner. You usually have about an hour to spray it and clean your gun before it starts to set. It cures (instead of drying) to a hard and very glossy finish. The most common way it is used is as a clear coat over a color base but you can also get it in colors. Real 1:1 aircraft are painted in urethanes because they are very tough paint.

Kit Basher is correct, Thinning enamels with laquer thinners is still spraying enamel so a good filtered respirator should be used.

Just make sure your respirator is classified for paint and not dust.

Bob

Edited March 31, 2012 by RobRus

[Modelmartin]

Nobody has mentioned having a spray booth. You can make one out of plywood, a bathroom fan, and a little ducting. I have one I have been using for 30 years with no problem. It really reduces the overspray and fumes. It doesn't eliminate them, just reduces! I have used lacquer extensively, and even Imron back in the day!

[CadillacPat]

Nobody has mentioned having a spray booth. You can make one out of plywood, a bathroom fan, and a little ducting. I have one I have been using for 30 years with no problem. It really reduces the overspray and fumes. It doesn't eliminate them, just reduces! I have used lacquer extensively, and even Imron back in the day!

I've mentioned the TableTop Paint Booths that I designed and built in other threads.

No matter,

Spraying any kinds of paint I still wear a Respirator.

It doesn't matter if you buy them at Lowes, Home Depot, or anywhere else as long as they are approved for the type of paints you are using.

CadillacPat

[MikeMc]

Urethane is a 2 part paint, part 1 is the paint and part2 is a hardner. You usually have about an hour to spray it and clean your gun before it starts to set. It cures (instead of drying) to a hard and very glossy finish. The most common way it is used is as a clear coat over a color base but you can also get it in colors. Real 1:1 aircraft are painted in urethanes because they are very tough paint.

Kit Basher is correct, Thinning enamels with laquer thinners is still spraying enamel so a good filtered respirator should be used.

Just make sure your respirator is classified for paint and not dust.

Bob

True...but when painting models..no cat / hardener is needed, as long as you clear, with an lacquer, acryllic , or even enamel...

[CadillacPat]

True...but when painting models..no cat / hardener is needed, as long as you clear, with an lacquer, acryllic , or even enamel...

Just to clarify,

Remember to stick to a system. It doesn't matter if you are painting Models or anything else.

I would not shoot Lacquer over Urethane Enamel basecoats as stated above.

Nor would I shoot Acrylic over any petroleum based paint as also mentioned.

Automotive Basecoats like the HOK I use do not require Hardener, only Reducer.

If you are Clearcoating with Urethane then certainly you need Hardener and Reducer.

2 part Automotive paints are different than rattlecan Lacquers and Enamels.

Urethane Enamel can be shot over any subject matter with proper priming.

Enamel can go over Lacquer or Acrylic but not vice versa.

CadillacPat

[MikeMc]

Just to clarify,

Remember to stick to a system. It doesn't matter if you are painting Models or anything else.

I would not shoot Lacquer over Urethane Enamel basecoats as stated above.

Nor would I shoot Acrylic over any petroleum based paint as also mentioned.

Automotive Basecoats like the HOK I use do not require Hardener, only Reducer.

If you are Clearcoating with Urethane then certainly you need Hardener and Reducer.

2 part Automotive paints are different than rattlecan Lacquers and Enamels.

CadillacPat

Well silly me...I've done this for years....Please explain why lacquer and acrylic clears won't work over urethane base coats....HOK reccomends SG100 over their colors as an intercoat.

[greymack]

Hey guys have to add my 2 cents here too if one is so worried about what health effects then just buy all the professional auto painters gear you need and then you know your safe.Also a spray booth helps alot like others have said here.Or buy a hazmak suit.

[CadillacPat]

Well silly me...I've done this for years....Please explain why lacquer and acrylic clears won't work over urethane base coats....HOK reccomends SG100 over their colors as an intercoat.

Mike,

Your post above listing Enamels, Urethanes, Lacquers and Acrylics was written as if they all could be interchanged.

Oil and water don't mix.

The HOK SG100 and new SG150 Intercoat Clears are Petroleum based and are used as a protective layer preceeding artwork or if you plan to not finish and Clear for a period of more than 12 hours.

If you would like I can send you one of the thousands of HOK Tech Manuals or HOK Tech CD's that the company supplied me with for giving out online and at Customizing Conventions I attend.

Shooting Lacquer over Enamel will boil up that underlying layer just like Paint Stripper.

Shooting water based Acrylic over anything Petroleum based will fisheye.

CadillacPat

[Art Anderson]

Paint hasn't really changed.....but lawyers and state CYA laws have changed. The precautions we take now should be the same as we always have.

The California labeling law that caused the Tamiya shortage is a example of 'change' in the laws and not the paint or procedures.

Exactly! Our paints have changed over the decades--no longer are lead or other heavy metal pigments used, for example. Even the solvents and thinners that get used have changed as well--some of the ones that were common 40 years ago have disappeared from the scene due to their health hazards.

All the arguments presented regarding the health problems suffered by professional auto body shop painters need to take into account the sheer volumes of paint used to paint a 1:1 car--it can take nearly a gallon of old-fashioned nitrocellulose or acrylic lacquer to paint say, a '57 Chevy body completely. Given the tendency for decades of car painters do do their work sans any sort of even basic dust masks, it's little wonder that so many suffered disability and even an early death from the effects of breathing in not only the vapors, but also the overspray particles.

But let's take a good look at what we as modelers do: For starters, even a model car rattle can is a fairly small amount of paint--3-3 1/2 fluid ounces plus propellant (propellant used to be Freon, but with the banning of CFC propellants more than 30 years ago--propane and butane (both highly flammable gasses BTW) are what is used in aerosol cans of all kinds today. However, the sheer volume of paint that comes out of the nozzle of a spray can does present some problems.

Three hazards do exist with spraying any sort of paint we might use on a model car body: Inhalation of the vapors of the solvent, inhalation of the particulates (dry or semi-dry droplets of overspray itself, and fire (every so often, the news media reports about a flash fire in the exhaust system of a furniture factory, where dried overspray from the lacquers used has caught fire, destroyed the plant completely).

The best way I know of to eliminate, or at least minimize exposure to solvent vapors and airborne particulate matter from spray painting is a good quality paint booth that exhausts to the outdoors--while a bit pricey to buy, this is a one-time buy for just about any modeler, and will go a LONG way toward preserving one's quality of life, and of course, domestic tranquility (keeps wives and families happy as they don't smell the paint, and the overspray doesn't settle in the house as a very unattractive dust all over the place). Another, very good tool to use is an airbrush! OK, now I'm sounding off seemingly highly technical, but an airbrush puts out only a fraction of the paint emitted by a spray can, and the much smaller, tighter spray pattern means that more of the paint lands where it's intended, and much less overspray into the surrounding are compared to a rattle can. In the bargain, while an airbrush and its compressor are also a bit pricey, using a hundred rattle cans of paint over time (and a prolific modeler can do that easily in say, 5 years time) will amount to far more than the price of airbrushing equipment which in itself is also a one-time buy.

With a well-designed spray booth, such as say, any of the Pace Peacemakers (or a properly designed and constructed unit of your own making) I find virtually no need whatsoever for a respirator, as all the overspray and solvent vapors are pulled out of the room to the outdoors, and leaving the thing run for say, half an hour after any paintwork will also suck out the majority of the fumes from drying paint in the bargain.

Just for explanation here: I find that when I set up paint for airbrushing, I will use perhaps 1/8 fl. ounce (half the volume of a square bottle of Testors) of paint in the color jar, followed by perhaps 1/4 ounce of thinner (almost always lacquer thinner by the way), which is enough paint for most model car bodies--per coating of paint (think this for primer, color coat, and clear coat when the paint job needs to be cleared). Now, this isn't all that much more paint than a woman might use to paint fingernails and toenails (I can almost guarrantee that no woman uses any sort of exhaust system when she does that!).

If one is using rattle cans, the best way to eliminate most all the risk is to spray outdoors, but that's not the easiest thing to do in winter, I know.

But in any event, I see no need to make mountains out of molehills here, just learn to be careful, take precautions, and use equipment, from spray booths to respirators if no spray booth is in the cards (PPE--personal protective equipment is never truly a bad idea--but consider that spray booth as PPE, which it is).

Art

[CadillacPat]

If you paint nearly every day as I do it's best to wear your Respirator, regardless of having a Paint Booth, even while you are mixing 2K Urethanes.

Some people may save their projects up painting several all day long, and that Respirator will make a big difference after a few hours of AirBrushing.

My Paint Booth ducts everything quickly outside the Shop but wearing my Respirator means there are absolutely no ill effects from exposure to vapors.

I think it's best to teach people the right way to do things and then let them make the choice of cutting corners if they choose to.

CadillacPat

[Guest Johnny]

BEST thing to do is just not paint your models at all. Why gamble with your health over little peices of plastic. No glue either. Fumes off the glue MUST be as bad for you, ,, or even worse than paint fumes, says right there on the lables.

Just use a soldering iron and melt them together. , , , OH,, WAIT A MINUTE ,, fumes from the melting plastic are worse for you than either the paint OR glue ,,??

Better just switch to needle point like I have. [Just be shure to put corks on the end of all your needles so you don't jab yourself]

That was great Steve!!!

[CadillacPat]

Now here are two very informative answers detailed with lots of great and helpful model building info.

Just the kind of thing I'm sure people search for.

BEST thing to do is just not paint your models at all. Why gamble with your health over little peices of plastic. No glue either. Fumes off the glue MUST be as bad for you, ,, or even worse than paint fumes, says right there on the lables.

Just use a soldering iron and melt them together. , , , OH,, WAIT A MINUTE ,, fumes from the melting plastic are worse for you than either the paint OR glue ,,??

Better just switch to needle point like I have. [Just be shure to put corks on the end of all your needles so you don't jab yourself]

That was great Steve!!!

[trogdor]

I recently bought some lumber at home depot, and saw there are now warning signs that California has determined wood dust is hazardous. A warning label on wood... so yes sometimes California does seem kind of silly.

.

Not so silly at all. I've been a woodworker for close to 40 years now. Wood dust is without doubt carcinogenic. Some woods are more toxic than others.

[MikeMc]

Now here are two very informative answers detailed with lots of great and helpful model building info.

Just the kind of thing I'm sure people search for.

Pat..your new here...try to have some fun.....

[CadillacPat]

Pat..your new here...try to have some fun.....

Well Mike, I'm new as a Member. Post counts and View counts are not what I am interested in.

Fun for me is learning or teaching.

The little digs and innuendos I read are not fun at all and really dilute the board.

Lately there has been a certain amount of infantile banter to wade through (luckily Harry takes care of that quickly) that I have to really look around for the "Fun" part.

CadillacPat

[CEKPETHO BCE]

I just purchased the mask in the link below. I do not see anything about paint. Before I use it I would like someone to take a look and let me know if it seems okay for paint.

http://www.zimbio.com/Bird+Flu/articles/K0YfnJ7Oi6i/3M+62023DHA1+C+TEKK+Protection+Pro+Multi+Purpose

[CEKPETHO BCE]

"Organic vapour/acid gas cartridge" What does this mean?

"at least 99.97 filtration efficiency against solid and liquid aerosals including oils" Is this what I need for painting?

"For workplace occupational applications only" Can anyone explain this to me?

It's intended for use with acid gas/organic vapor, for disinfecting livestock buildings, chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sulphur dioxide, and particulates and is recommended for mold, lead, and coating/sealant sprays

http://3mgasmask.blo...3dha1-c-3m.html

Doesn't mention paint at all. Should I return it and get another one, or does this seem okay for painting?

Edited April 4, 2012 by CEKPETHO BCE

[GrandpaMcGurk]

Guys, take precautions by all means....but keep in mind that just walking outside, driving your car, the food you eat, the pots and pans you cook in, water and your groceries all contain something that exposes you something potentially hazardous to your health.........short of wearing a self contained environment suit it's pretty much a roulette wheel.

Edited April 4, 2012 by GrandpaMcGurk

[Kit Basher]

"Organic vapour/acid gas cartridge" What does this mean?

"at least 99.97 filtration efficiency against solid and liquid aerosals including oils" Is this what I need for painting?

"For workplace occupational applications only" Can anyone explain this to me?

It's intended for use with acid gas/organic vapor, for disinfecting livestock buildings, chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sulphur dioxide, and particulates and is recommended for mold, lead, and coating/sealant sprays

http://3mgasmask.blo...3dha1-c-3m.html

Doesn't mention paint at all. Should I return it and get another one, or does this seem okay for painting?

Andrey, I think the mask you bought will be fine. You are trying to protect yourself from particulates (dust, paint particles), and organic vapors (the solvents in paint). Paint would fall in the category of "coating/ sealant sprays". There should be a paper filter (probably under the red cover on the cartridges). That is to catch the particulates. The yellow cartridges are filled with charcoal to trap the vapors. Hope that helps. Happy painting!

[CEKPETHO BCE]

^^ Thank you for clarifying it for me. Much appreciated

[Jdurg]

As has already been mentioned in this thread, the main reason for the at times frightening warnings on paint bottles/can, pharmaceutical products, etc. are for legal reasons. This way if someone does something that results in heavy exposure to the paint, or has an adverse event come up with the pharmaceutical product, the company that made the product won't be sued into oblivion by the end user.

Having been in the pharmaceutical industry for a decade now, I've learned quite a bit about how medications come to market and the insane amount of testing that they go through. The extensive testing is to not only see if the product works, but to test out the product in a very large number of subjects with all different types of backgrounds to see if there are any dangers there. Safety is the number one priority and the amount of data that comes in regarding adverse events experienced, and other health related measurements, is simply staggering. At the end of the testing phases, and when the product is submitted to the FDA/MHRA/EMA for approval, terabytes of data relating to the side effects of the drug are reported as well. If the product is approved, the companies are required to report out any adverse events that occurred in a certain percentage of the subjects, and any serious adverse events which have occurred even if it happened to just 1 subject out of the tens of thousands of subjects that participated in clinical trials. Therefore, on things like bottles of aspirin or prescription medications, you'll see pamphlets talking about the possibility of loss of life or blindness or strokes, or other things that you would never expect to happen. Whether it was just a coincidence or it was caused because a subject in a study didn't tell the company about their entire medical history, they are required to report it. Both for the legal safety of the company, and the safety of the people using it.

With chemicals like paints and glues and the other stuff we use, the same reasoning applies. The companies must let us know what could happen if we were to be exposed to these chemicals no matter how rare or unlikely the chance is that something could happen. Having a degree in the chemistry field, I learned that there is absolutely no such thing as a completely non-toxic substance. EVERY substance in this universe can be dangerous to you. This all has to do with quantity. In small quantities, something like water is perfectly harmless to you. In large quantities, however, water can be incredibly dangerous. (Remember that story about the mother in Seattle who drank multiple gallons of water in order to win a Wii video game system and died as a result?) The nature of the chemical itself also has to do with the toxicity of it with regards to long term exposures. If a chemical is readily removed from the body and doesn't accumulate, it really poses no real long term danger. If the body isn't able to clear it out quickly, or at all, then it will build up and cause problems. (This is the case with many heavy metals like lead and mercury).

A key document which exists for every compound out there is the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). This sheet describes the chemical reactivity of a substance, biological dangers, safe exposure levels, potential dangers if mixed with other chemicals, etc. When you read an MSDS, if you aren't fully knowledgeable in chemistry, they can appear incredibly frightening even for things as simple as water or carbon dioxide. But if you have a good background in chemistry, you'll be able to understand the exposure levels and LD50 levels, and the other exposure limits that are posted for the compounds. In addition, you'll know whether the dangerous reactions they post are likely to happen, or are one-in-a-million events that would require immense levels of stupidity for them to happen.

So some good advice is to take the MSDS sheets you'll read as a guidance for safely using the substances and a description of worst case scenarios that could happen while using the substances. With the chemicals we use in our hobby, reducing exposure can't do you any harm. Don't paint or glue in a concealed space lacking ventiliation, don't use your chemicals in areas where you eat or drink or sleep, don't purposely apply the chemicals to your body, don't ingest them, and always ensure that there is good ventilation wherever you are painting or gluing or puttying.

As an aside with regards to examples of things which are dangerous, but not really something to worry about in small quantities, take a look at radiation. If you've ever had an x-ray done, you'll remember how they covered the parts of your body not being x-rayed in a lead sheet, and how the x-ray technician leaves the room and goes behind a thick leaded glass or lead lined wall when the x-ray is done. You may be getting kind of nervous wondering why he is getting behind all that shielding and you're just sitting there being exposed to it. Well, it comes down to quantity once more. That day, you were getting x-rayed once. During the full day at work, the technician is likely taking dozens upon dozens of x-rays. The one time exposure for you will do no harm. But if you had dozens upon dozens of x-rays done in one day, harm would definitely be done. So the technician needs to be shielded to prevent an overexposure for him. The area of your body exposed to the radiation also plays a key part in the safety of it. If you have a bunch of x-rays done on your extremities, like I have in the past couple years, it's not big deal. This is because your extremities don't have a great number of dividing cells which are the most susceptible to radiation damage. Your core of your body, however, is highly susceptible because of all the dividing cells which could be damaged and possibly mutate if exposed to radiation.

One final thing to mention, which I find to be fairly humorous, is the reaction people have when you mention that they are being exposed to radioactive material. The human body has evolved over the years to be able to handle exposure to small quantities of radiation because radioactivity is around us and always has been. If you have ever taken a cross-country or transatlantic/pacific flight, you will have exposed yourself to a great deal of radiation due to the cosmic rays that are going right through the plane that aren't blocked by the atmosphere that is doing that job for us here on the ground. If you happen to have a geiger counter available to you, take that geiger counter and turn it on around a bottle of salt substitute (Potassium chloride) or a pile of bananas. You'll hear the geiger counter start clicking madly due to the potassium in there. Potassium naturally occurs in multiple isotopes (atoms with the same number of protons, but different neutron numbers), with one of those isotopes (Potassium-40) being radioactive. Therefore, things with a lot of potassium in them will be naturally radioactive. It's low levels and very weak, but it is there. It's just hilarious to me to see people start freaking out when the hear the clicking.