Why aren't all model kits awesome?

[MAGNUM4342]

  On 3/6/2013 at 3:49 PM, Brett Barrow said:

I work in wholesale distribution of hobby products, with a part time gig in a large hobby shop on Saturdays (and I've been in the business for over a decade). So I sell all kits, both at wholesale and retail - cars, tanks, planes, ships, paints, glues, etc... I have a pretty good idea as to who buys what.

I'd rather not say who I work for, since I'm not here as a representative of the company, but as a hobbyist myself. If the company gives me a title or a job responsibility were PR is part of my job, I'll start identifiying myself as such. I use my real name, so it's no big secret, I just don't want what I say to be taken as a statement from my employer. What I say here is 100% me.

And the Barrow Boys are distant relatives, so the family claims. When my grandfather was drafted during WWII they just had to make him a BAR gunner! My older brother's name is Clinton, so of course he got the cool "Clyde" nickname growing up...

I fully understand you wanting to keep your employer out of it, no sweat there. I asked about the Barrow name simply because I find the Bonnie and Clyde story fascinating along with Billy the Kid and that blonde criminal Custer. Thanks for the reply.

[Brett Barrow]

  On 3/7/2013 at 4:57 PM, Johnny said:

My son who is 32 just the last few years got back into modeling. Back when he was first into it it was the models of the cars he was seeing and driving with the low, wide, spoke wheels and fart can exhaust big wing with ground effect packages.

Guess which models trip his trigger today? Yep, the old stuff too many here are running down, the re-pops of those old 60's releases I was building as a kid!

I have a regular customer now, a middle to high school age kid who has bought at least 3 of the Revell Willys Gassers since it was re-issued with the KS Pittman decals a couple months ago. He bought a Rat Roaster a couple weeks ago. Somebody gave him a gift certificate to our store for Christmas and now he's hooked on models and is in every weekend with his mom. That's all it takes, just get one kid hooked every now and then. Could be a son, nephew, neighbor kid down the street (heck - even nieces and daughters can get into models, I have a few female customers!) maybe give them a kit and some tools, or just a gift certificate to the LHS if you're lucky enough to still have one. Lots of younger kids find all this nostalgic stuff cool, too. They see Hot Rod Deluxe, Old Skool Rods, TRaK, and similar magazines on the shelves and think that stuff's cool. Muscle Cars are still cool, too. Nostalgia works on kids of all ages - from 8 to 88!!!

[Chuck Kourouklis]

  On 3/6/2013 at 5:03 PM, Brett Barrow said:

And would anyone care to know the last time I sold one of those "awesome" new-fangled $50+ armor kits to someone under the age of 30? I don't know, maybe never. But I'll sell 6-12 Revell orAMT car kits every Saturday just to modelers my own age or younger, probably about half of which are school-age kids. I get a at least a couple car modelers in every Saturday who are buying their first kit, or they're getting back into the hobby after a long period of inactivity. Age and the "discerning enthusiast" factor are not shifting American car modeling they way they are other genres, they're still loads of younger, casual modelers buying American car models (and sci-fi models). Your clubs may be aging, the show attendees may be aging, the population of these message boards maybe aging, but the demographic buying American car models at retail is not fading or aging nearly as fast as the military genres are. American car modeling is not dying anytime soon.

I think you and I are making flip sides of the same point, though I gotta say, if the AFV guys are dyin' out, it ain't quick enough yet to stop manufacturers from sinking cubic dollars into new military tooling. We got a 1/32 B-17 with forty inches of wing on the horizon, which would indicate that the 1/32 B-25 that preceded it found a sufficient audience - to say nothing of manufacturers like Tamiya being rather more ambitious lately with all-new military tooling than it is with autos, or the scads of smaller Cyber-Hobby, AFV-Club, Zveda, ICM, Eduard and Meng- type manufacturers that treat street cars on a very limited basis if they bother with them at all.

On the other hand, Revell's latest Facebook posting has a general observation that "New technology, however, may soon make pattern models a thing of the past" and a staff comment specifically on digital scanning. And I hold that if Revell adapts its process to 3D scans of the prototype, that step alone will raise them to a much more consistent level of "awesomeness" even if they don't change a single other aspect of their current design m.o.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Warning: off topic response

A 1/32 B-17 ? I just HAVE to have that.

[Guest Johnny]

Chuck, the aircraft builders will probably be around a lot longer than the armor builders will as will be the sales. I even still will build a WWII aircraft model (usually to give to someone) from time to time.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Got no reason to doubt ya, Johnny, though I gotta say armor's still getting good stuff too.

Warning: possibly off-topic continuation...

HK Models, Bill. Here's a taste:

Off-topic for car models, definitely ON-topic for "awesome".

Edited March 7, 2013 by Chuck Kourouklis

[Guest Johnny]

Now that is awesome detail!

[Greg Myers]

BIG BIRD

Edited March 7, 2013 by Harry P.

[Brett Barrow]

  On 3/7/2013 at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kourouklis said:

I think you and I are making flip sides of the same point, though I gotta say, if the AFV guys are dyin' out, it ain't quick enough yet to stop manufacturers from sinking cubic dollars into new military tooling. We got a 1/32 B-17 with forty inches of wing on the horizon, which would indicate that the 1/32 B-25 that preceded it found a sufficient audience - to say nothing of manufacturers like Tamiya being rather more ambitious lately with all-new military tooling than it is with autos, or the scads of smaller Cyber-Hobby, AFV-Club, Zveda, ICM, Eduard and Meng- type manufacturers that treat street cars on a very limited basis if they bother with them at all.

On the other hand, Revell's latest Facebook posting has a general observation that "New technology, however, may soon make pattern models a thing of the past" and a staff comment specifically on digital scanning. And I hold that if Revell adapts its process to 3D scans of the prototype, that step alone will raise them to a much more consistent level of "awesomeness" even if they don't change a single other aspect of their current design m.o.

No, I didn't really mean it like that, like military modelers are dying off, but that the "older, more discerning enthusiast" element is shifting the military genres towards the uber-kits. New tooling drives military and aircraft modeling, since you're pretty much selling to the same crowd, you have to give them something new. Reissues don't work on them the way they work on car modelers. Although, I gotta say, the recent Renwal resurrections by Revell, especially the Atomic Cannon, are selling like hotcakes, and more to the nostalgic crowd, not as much to the serious military guys. But the Atomic Cannon was pretty much an uber-kit in its day.

And IMHO, the HK 1/32 B-17 would have been much more awesome had it been 1/48. We need a new-tool 1/48 B-17. At 1/32 it's just a little too much awesomeness for most folks to afford, or to even have the display space for. I've seen plenty of folks pass on the newer Revell 1/32 German twins just simply because they lack the space for them, and they're dirt cheap kits compared to most current 1/32 stuff.

I'm just happy we're finally getting an accurate (I hope!) 1/48 Spit IX from Eduard. That's as awesome as anything outside of the car world to me.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

HO! Hadn't heard about the Eduard Nine!

As for the rest, ah, okay, I getcha now.

[Rob Hall]

Speaking of military kits, at my LHS a few months ago I got see a new tool aircraft carrier or battleship in the box...this thing was massive, maybe the biggest kit I've ever seen--the box was about 4 feet long...the trees had a vast number of parts....would need a lot of space to build it. IIRC, it was something by Trumpeter.

[Harry P.]

I recently bought the new Trumpeter 1/32 Junkers "Stuka" WWII dive bomber. All I can say is, wow, the military guys really have it good. What incredible detail... crisp engraving, no flash, parts fit like a glove, PE parts, and on and on. I almost never built military models (aside from my 1/32 WWI fighters), but if that Stuka is indicative of the quality of armor and military kits in general, all I can say is that model car builders are being served up a lot of sub-par stuff. A lot.

[martinfan5]

  On 3/7/2013 at 10:14 PM, Rob Hall said:

Speaking of military kits, at my LHS a few months ago I got see a new tool aircraft carrier or battleship in the box...this thing was massive, maybe the biggest kit I've ever seen--the box was about 4 feet long...the trees had a vast number of parts....would need a lot of space to build it. IIRC, it was something by Trumpeter.

Did the price tag match the size of the box?

[Greg Myers]

I'd bet a bunch of us got started with airplanes. ( I say "airplanes" in the vernacular of a young builder) I did, and reading Harry's post I gotta wonder if that's the way to go ?

Edited March 7, 2013 by Greg Myers

[Chuck Kourouklis]

  On 3/7/2013 at 11:28 PM, Harry P. said:

I recently bought the new Trumpeter 1/32 Junkers "Stuka" WWII dive bomber. All I can say is, wow, the military guys really have it good. What incredible detail... crisp engraving, no flash, parts fit like a glove, PE parts, and on and on. I almost never built military models (aside from my 1/32 WWI fighters), but if that Stuka is indicative of the quality of armor and military kits in general, all I can say is that model car builders are being served up a lot of sub-par stuff. A lot.

It's very difficult to put one genre up against the other and not come to that conclusion, and I'm not just talking the high-zoot big scale stuff either. 1/48 Eduard models, like the one Brett mentioned? The basic "Weekend Edition" kits approach the rough size and price of a US 1/25 auto kit - and the cars don't generally weather that context well.

[Rob Hall]

  On 3/7/2013 at 11:34 PM, martinfan5 said:

Did the price tag match the size of the box?

I think it was the Trumpeter 1/200th Bismarck. Tower Hobbies lists it for $284, and it's over 49 inches in length.

[martinfan5]

  On 3/8/2013 at 12:49 AM, Rob Hall said:

I think it was the Trumpeter 1/200th Bismarck. Tower Hobbies lists it for $284, and it's over 49 inches in length.

Ok math genius on here, can we a dollar to inch ratio please

I am going to check it out it now

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Funny, right about what the 1/32 17 is supposed to cost.

[MAGNUM4342]

I don't think they should all be awesome. Think about this for a moment- If all kits were awesome and perfect scale reproductions, where would your skill set be? There would be minimal room for improvement beyond cleanup, painting and assembly. Then, once those three skills are mastered you'll find that the kits become boring. Traditionally as a species, the more we improve things the worse our state of minds become. we got computers...which of course spawned computer shorthand...IIRC. Then cell phones gained the ability to text...this spawned the ever more popular texting shorthand. Now ask yourself, how well are our children doing in school these days with oh, say, reading and WRITING.

Not very well are they? No, because text speak LOL is too easy and longhand cursive is quickly becoming a thing of the past. The smarter our phones get the dumber we get. If all kits were perfect, none of us would know anything about bodywork, chassis stretching or the mechanics of engine swapping. Well, some of us might, but my point is if it was easy, it would no longer be fun.

Edited March 8, 2013 by MAGNUM4342

[Hayabusa]

The kit that Rob Hall mentions is the german battleship "Bismarck" in 1:200 scale, by Trumpeter. The model is huge! A swedish modeler completed it just recently:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2250&hilit=Bismarck&start=110

I like building model cars, but I also build AFV´s. Clearly, there´s a difference between the 2 genres - what the producers of AFV kits have to offer is quite amazing, I think. The world of 1:35 scale AFV kits was ruled by Tamiya for many years (they started it), but today there´s a vast array of producers bringing high quality kits to the market. Each year, there´s many "new tool" kits released and the level of detail and mold quality is very high for most of the time. If you build AFV models - life has never been better However, a bit hard on your wallet...these kits are not inexpensive, but you do get what you pay for.

If you like WWI airplanes, check out Wingnut Wings. I mean - wow! The kits they produce are impressive.

Like I said, the world of model cars look a bit different but I still enjoy building model cars.

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Exactly as you state it, Kevin, your premise is plenty reasonable. But with only a subtle tweak - it's a builder's responsibility to correct a manufacturer oversight, and the builder is somehow deficient if he points out the manufacturer's error - we're right back at that blog section I linked to earlier.

I bent the focus a bit to proportioning problems, but if you check the original poster's comment, he also talks about detail. And high levels of detail rarely lead to easy kits.

I'd also go so far as to say that a properly proportioned kit still leaves plenty of a canvas for bodywork, be it conversion to a different style or trim level, or especially to a custom. Elective craftsmanship is a very different proposition from corrective craftsmanship - to most, the former is far more stimulating and less annoying than the latter.

[Harry P.]

  On 3/8/2013 at 7:32 AM, Chuck Kourouklis said:

Elective craftsmanship is a very different proposition from corrective craftsmanship...

I like that line. Very true. A well-designed, well-detailed and correct model kit in no way tamps down the creative process. You're still free to customize, kitbash and parts-swap to your heart's content... but you don't have to first correct all the errors that should never have made it to production!

It's like buying a car... you expect a brand new car to work correctly... not needing a trip to the mechanic to first fix all the manufacturer's defects before you can start driving it! Can your mechanic (or you) fix the car? Sure... but the point is, you shouldn't have to. Those problems should not have been present in a brand new car to begin with.

Same deal with model kits.

[Erik Smith]

  On 3/7/2013 at 11:28 PM, Harry P. said:

I recently bought the new Trumpeter 1/32 Junkers "Stuka" WWII dive bomber. All I can say is, wow, the military guys really have it good. What incredible detail... crisp engraving, no flash, parts fit like a glove, PE parts, and on and on. I almost never built military models (aside from my 1/32 WWI fighters), but if that Stuka is indicative of the quality of armor and military kits in general, all I can say is that model car builders are being served up a lot of sub-par stuff. A lot.

I have this from Trumpeter:

1/35 scale, it has a couple hundred parts including a PE fret. I think I payed $28. I will post pics later to show how detailed and beautifully molded a kit can be...

[Brett Barrow]

  On 3/7/2013 at 11:28 PM, Harry P. said:

I recently bought the new Trumpeter 1/32 Junkers "Stuka" WWII dive bomber. All I can say is, wow, the military guys really have it good. What incredible detail... crisp engraving, no flash, parts fit like a glove, PE parts, and on and on. I almost never built military models (aside from my 1/32 WWI fighters), but if that Stuka is indicative of the quality of armor and military kits in general, all I can say is that model car builders are being served up a lot of sub-par stuff. A lot.

Funny you bring that particular kit up, as the rivet coun.... er... um... the "mechanical fastener enumerators" over on the Large Scale Planes forum (and other aircraft forums, but LSP especially) pretty much tore that kit to shreds over inaccuracies when it was released. Read at your own peril, remember - ignorance is bliss... And also know that the only surviving B-model Stuka which hangs from the ceiling at the Chicago Museum of Sceince and Industry not only took a nose-dive when it crash landed during WWII, but also took another nose dive when it fell from the ceiling back in the 70's. So there's no surviving WWII perfectly intact Stuka B nose for anybody to measure or scan or whatever, so I cut them a little slack in the nose department.

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=41786&hl= trumpeter stuka

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=39625&hl=%2Btrumpeter+%2Bstuka

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=42798&hl=%2Btrumpeter+%2Bstuka

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=40139&hl=%2Btrumpeter+%2Bstuka

http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=8054

It might look like I posted the same link 3 or 4 times, but they're different threads.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Brett Barrow

[Casey]

This F-B Chrysler Imperial kit should give you a good idea of how "awesome" kits were in the 1950s.

Nice box, contents well protected. There shouldn't be any breakage or warpage with this one! :

Oh yeah, nice illustrated instruction sheet. I'm gonna love building this kit! :

Open it up a bit further and-