Why not these things

[martinfan5]

Ya never know what ya got till it's gone..

Agreed

[Tony Bryan]

I just got to fondle a sample of one of these today:

It's reeeeally nice, but it's $90 retail. We'll see what it ends up streeting at, probably around $75.

I think if we're going to see something like this in 24/25th scale, it would likely come from a company like Meng, one of the smaller newer startup companies looking to make a splash. Meng has been all over the place with their first few releases, I know they have been looking at entering the 24/25th scale market, who knows what kind of subject they would pick, but it could be something like this. If they do, it won't be cheap... But I just don't see one of the mainstream US companies producing something like this in today's market.

Buy it direct from China, and you'll pay less than $60 usd for it, and delivered in less than 10 days, it where I got mine

[Tony Bryan]

Also, with diecast, you have a much higher perceived value to consumers vs a plastic model. The investment to produce a finished die-cast vs a plastic kit really aren't that much different, let's say $200,000 for each. Let's say the plastic kit has a retail of $20 and you need to sell 50,000 pieces. You could sell the diecast for $100 retail, but then you'd only have to sell 10,000 pieces, since it's the same dollar amount. The diecast doesn't really cost any more to produce, but has a much higher perceived value because it's built and painted. When you're talking about Chinese labor, it really doesn't matter if you're molding and packaging 50,000 plastic model kits, or building and painting 10,000 diecast models, it's pretty much the same. But there might be a market for those 10,000 diecast pieces, where there's no market for 50,000 plastic model kits. That's the difference between finished diecasts and plastic kits.

The figures you quote are purely speculative and anyone can fudge these to make it look either way, good or bad if you like, so I can't see where your agrument is, not many die cast sell for $100, nor do many truck kits sell for $20

What puzzles me is why anyone would think arguing about it on an internet forum will accomplish anything. What I'm seeing is four or five guys, apparently representing tens of thousands of modelers, posting over and over and hoping that the manufacturers will see their posts and take them seriously. Interesting thread ... carry on.

Why have a forum general discussion area then, all I see is 2 or 3 guys saying the same old thing, self appointed experts with authority on everything modeling

[Tony Bryan]

To the best of my knowledge, no reissue of the CAT D8H kit has been a run of more than perhaps 5,000 to 7,000 kits. That's not nearly enough, from what I know of the model kit industry, to suggest that a new kit in that field would generate enough sales to pay back the cost of tooling it, particularly in 1/25 scale.

On the other hand, it's been mentioned in this discussion of a company having put out some 1/35 scale kits of construction equipment. Well, that scale does have a huge following, as it's the primary scale for modelers of military armor and soft-skin vehicles--but even that segment of military modeling (think IPMS types, who do aircraft, armor, ships and military figures & diorama's) is not nearly the market there at aircraft kits are--for whatever reasons. In addition, 1/35 scale construction equipment would be pretty much a natural fit with 1/34 scale diecast model trucks, as that is still a pretty decent market from what I can see.

And yes, of course, times have changed, but one thing hasn't--plastic model companies are simply NOT in Fortune 500 territory--and never have been (although Monogram was owned by Mattel for a number of years, and that toy company was on the Fortune 500 list in those times). For any model company in the US, tooling a new model kit is a major investment--for that reason, the number of new kit releases yearly are fairly small compared to a lot of the general manufacturing industry, and the development/tooling costs are still a major investment, per tool, per a year's announcement of new kits.

Sure, jumping in to do any new model kit release is a risky jump over a cliff--but any model company exec worth his salt to his employer is going to do as much as possible to minimize the risk of losing money on any given product--they simply have to, first of all, for their own job security, and the company itself for its own profitability, even perhaps its own survival in the long run.

Art

I guess with that sort of business attitude, I'm surprised that any company has the insight to produce anything new, but one company did, they listened to what a small minority group want and produced a brand new truck kit, the same company invested the so called $100,000 to tool up and produce these kits, but had enough insight to get value for money, by having the plans for a second kit, and wait for it, a trailer, not many second type kits from that

The same said company also marketed the kit in such a way that it generated enough "excitement" in such a 'so called" small market place that people pledged buying 2 or 5 or 10 kits at a time before it hit the selves, they kept the "limited" market place informed on how they where going, they also gave the test builds the a select few that where active members on other forums, so they could post and review the "NEW' kit, so people where waiting for it to be released,

that is good marketing, and many other well respected companies do the same, get the public excited about it before hand so people are ready and have it on there must have list

The Lonestar kit retails anywhere from $60 up, here in Australia they are $125, yeah I have 2, to use as a donor kit, and to think that you can get a re issue 1/16th kit for the same money

Meng Models do the same, they are also a relatively new model company that is investing in some excellent kits, very well detailed, with a philosophy producing the best they can, why would they invest in so much tooling if there was no return

There are many people that only build one or two subjects, and when you are building $10 or $20 kits, investing $2-300 in a kit is pointless to you

[Brett Barrow]

The figures you quote are purely speculative and anyone can fudge these to make it look either way, good or bad if you like, so I can't see where your agrument is, not many die cast sell for $100, nor do many truck kits sell for $20

You're right, they are, I picked those particular figures just to make the math easy and to illustrate my point. The actual numbers don't matter in the context of this discussion.

[Fabrux]

Revell used to make all kinds of neat combo kits with wet bikes, dirt bikes, dune buggies, etc. Tool up the trailer and the cargo and you can satick it with any number of tow vehicles (Mustand, Datsun pickups, Chevy pickups/vans, etc)

[Tom Geiger]

Why have a forum general discussion area then, all I see is 2 or 3 guys saying the same old thing, self appointed experts with authority on everything modeling

Tony, I don't know how long you've been around the forum or how deep you are into the culture here. If so, you would know that several of the people involved in this discussion have many years experience in the business. And then there are those of us with direct access to the decision makers in the model manufacturing business.

There were periods of time in our history where the model companies were owned by clueless companies that didn't know or understand what they were selling or how to effectively market model kits. I can say that this has changed and today all the major brands are in the hands of the most knowledgeable, caring cheerleaders for our hobby. Knowing them, I totally trust that they are doing the very best for our hobby with the limited budgets they are faced with today.

[Ben]

This is pretty revealing fact, the topic started in the general truck section about what truck modelers would like to see made has only twelve posts. Several from the same guys. Must be a lot of closet construction modelers. Also the first page of posts goes back to the beginning of August. Not much of an online presence for such a huge market.

Gee, didn't see this coming from six miles away. That's because this is Model CARS Magazine! There are VERY few truck modelers that even bother with this forum. Try going over to the Model Truck Discussion Group on Facebook and look at the replies there to the exact same question. You guys are clueless about what we want!

[Ben]

Revell Germany only made 1,500 pieces of the big excavator reissue. That's a VERY SMALL run. By contrast the typical limited-run SSP reissues are 5,000 pieces. Model King's limited edition kits are typically 3,000-5,000 pieces. New tooling takes around 50,000 pieces to break even these days. That's exactly why Moebius picked the ProStar/LoneStar, the ability to get more than one kit out of a basic tool. Also factor in that Revell Germany is reboxing Moebius' truck kits for the European market.

How do you know this for a fact? That kit was issued twice. I find it VERY hard to believe the entire sum of both runs was only 1500 pieces!

[Ben]

I guess nobody remembers these things. I do. Couldn't give 'em away, and they weren't that expensive, maybe $15-$20, IIRC. Sure they're a different scale, but when you can't sell small, cheap, snap together kits of construction equipment, you'll find that it's even harder to sell big, fancy, glue-together kits of construction equipment...

Yes, and small, cheap, snap together car kits have ALWAYS outsold the much nicer, full detail glue kits!!!!!

[Ben]

Also, with diecast, you have a much higher perceived value to consumers vs a plastic model. The investment to produce a finished die-cast vs a plastic kit really aren't that much different, let's say $200,000 for each. Let's say the plastic kit has a retail of $20 and you need to sell 50,000 pieces. You could sell the diecast for $100 retail, but then you'd only have to sell 10,000 pieces, since it's the same dollar amount. The diecast doesn't really cost any more to produce, but has a much higher perceived value because it's built and painted. When you're talking about Chinese labor, it really doesn't matter if you're molding and packaging 50,000 plastic model kits, or building and painting 10,000 diecast models, it's pretty much the same. But there might be a market for those 10,000 diecast pieces, where there's no market for 50,000 plastic model kits. That's the difference between finished diecasts and plastic kits.

My point in mentioning the First Gear diecast was the simple fact.......There are many, many people interested in SCALE construction equipment. There's not one person on this forum that knows for a fact that many of the guys that buy the diecast, wouldn't build a plastic model of the same subject. To say you do, would be very ignorant!

[Ben]

If there isn't an established market, why would a kit manufacturer gamble on it? As mentioned above, it works in some European markets, but not necessarily worldwide, and the European kits are usually of subjects of little interest in larger markets like the US. Diecast manufacturers understand their market, but that doesn't mean it translates to plastic kit builders.

Why don't you ask AMT, ERTL, Heller, Italeri, revell, etc.? They all HAVE produced farm and construction equipment kits and released them here as well as in other countries. If there was "NO MARKET" as you guys foolishly believe, these kits would have NEVER been produced in the first place. Every type of machinery that has been produced in kit form is still being used worldwide today so don't try to hide behind the "yeah, but that was then, this is now" statement.

[Brett Barrow]

How do you know this for a fact? That kit was issued twice. I find it VERY hard to believe the entire sum of both runs was only 1500 pieces!

I said the REISSUE was 1,500 pieces. I know that is a fact because it IS a fact - my company bought nearly 1/3 of the run!

I don't know how many pieces they made in the first run, it was 1984, I was 7 years old at the time. Was not working in the business at the time... I am now and have been for the last 12 years. I'm not saying I'm always right, but I speak from personal experience in this business. My opinion isn't gospel by any stretch, but it's not to be taken lightly, either. When I speak, I speak from experience. This is what I do.

[Ben]

To the best of my knowledge, no reissue of the CAT D8H kit has been a run of more than perhaps 5,000 to 7,000 kits. That's not nearly enough, from what I know of the model kit industry, to suggest that a new kit in that field would generate enough sales to pay back the cost of tooling it, particularly in 1/25 scale.

On the other hand, it's been mentioned in this discussion of a company having put out some 1/35 scale kits of construction equipment. Well, that scale does have a huge following, as it's the primary scale for modelers of military armor and soft-skin vehicles--but even that segment of military modeling (think IPMS types, who do aircraft, armor, ships and military figures & diorama's) is not nearly the market there at aircraft kits are--for whatever reasons. In addition, 1/35 scale construction equipment would be pretty much a natural fit with 1/34 scale diecast model trucks, as that is still a pretty decent market from what I can see.

And yes, of course, times have changed, but one thing hasn't--plastic model companies are simply NOT in Fortune 500 territory--and never have been (although Monogram was owned by Mattel for a number of years, and that toy company was on the Fortune 500 list in those times). For any model company in the US, tooling a new model kit is a major investment--for that reason, the number of new kit releases yearly are fairly small compared to a lot of the general manufacturing industry, and the development/tooling costs are still a major investment, per tool, per a year's announcement of new kits.

Sure, jumping in to do any new model kit release is a risky jump over a cliff--but any model company exec worth his salt to his employer is going to do as much as possible to minimize the risk of losing money on any given product--they simply have to, first of all, for their own job security, and the company itself for its own profitability, even perhaps its own survival in the long run.

Art

Agreed but think about it, where is construction equipment seen more often, in the military or in the civilian world? If a dozer kit would sell well with the armor guys, wouldn't that same dozer fare better in civilian form as it is more commonly seen?

[Ben]

And whats funny is the Gone Fishing sets seem to be sot after and sell for $25-$70, and over at the NASCAR forum, people are always saying if only Revell would reissue the ASA kits, its funny how kits when new dont sell, but as time goes on, they become hot.

I've seen that Dodge Ramcharger by itself fetch prices so high that I pulled one out of my parts box that I had built years ago with thoughts of listing it on Ebay!

Edited August 31, 2013 by Ben

[Ben]

And whats funny is the Gone Fishing sets seem to be sot after and sell for $25-$70, and over at the NASCAR forum, people are always saying if only Revell would reissue the ASA kits, its funny how kits when new dont sell, but as time goes on, they become hot.

Look at the Revell Ice Patrol pickup kit. It's actually a pretty cheesy rendition of a Chevy pickup with a snowmobile but people LOVE that kit! because it has the snowmobile!

[Harry P.]

Harry,

Think about something for a minute, if a manufacturer did produce these types of kits it just might appeal to the car modeler to attempt such a project. I think both Ben and Tony have stated their opinions very well and there are many more truck and heavy equipment builders out there that will tell you the same thing. You guys are saying that there is no market for these kits when in reality the market hasn't been established yet. There is an interest, what we need is to have a manufacturer willing to take on the task and establish the market so it can be supported by the truck builders and eventually builders of other interests.

Kit manufacturers are not goinn to spend all of the upfront $$$ required to produce kits like this, and then hope there's a market for them. That's not how it works. Again, as I've said about 12 times now, the reason these kits are not being offered is because the manufacturers do not think they would sell in enough numbers to pay back the development costs and turn a profit. If they believed that they would, they would be making the kits!

That's not to say that there is no demand for them. Obviously there is demand... from guys like you who are into those types of vehicles. But once again, the manufacturers obviously don't think the demand is large enough to warrant production of these kits. It's really as simple as that.

Let me give you an example: Say my neighbors and I all love to play cricket. (We don't, I'm just making a point). As far as I can tell, there's a huge demand for a cricket supply store, because all of my neighbors love cricket, so obviously a cricket supply store would be a huge success, right?

Well, not so fast. Just because my neighbors and I all love cricket, that doesn't mean that the whole town loves cricket. And if a cricket store did open, creating a source of cricket supplies, there is absolutely no guarantee that anyone who wasn't into cricket before would suddenly now be, just because there are cricket supplies now available. And just a relative handful of proven cricket lovers (my neighbors and I) are not enough to keep a cricket store operating at a profit... so nobody is going to take the risk of opening a cricket store and operating at a losss. That would be business suicide.

[Ben]

I just got to fondle a sample of one of these today:

It's reeeeally nice, but it's $90 retail. We'll see what it ends up streeting at, probably around $75.

I think if we're going to see something like this in 24/25th scale, it would likely come from a company like Meng, one of the smaller newer startup companies looking to make a splash. Meng has been all over the place with their first few releases, I know they have been looking at entering the 24/25th scale market, who knows what kind of subject they would pick, but it could be something like this. If they do, it won't be cheap... But I just don't see one of the mainstream US companies producing something like this in today's market.

Now you tell me, honestly, from a car guys point of view, is that not a very detailed and interesting kit with a LOT of pieces. Even if the subject itself does not appeal to you.

[Brett Barrow]

Yes, and small, cheap, snap together car kits have ALWAYS outsold the much nicer, full detail glue kits!!!!!

Yes, they do. Revell's snap-together kits are their top sellers. But you can keep selling the same snap-together kits over and over to new groups of beginning modelers, you have to keep making new glue kits. When's the last time Revell discontinued a snap-together kit?

[Harry P.]

Now you tell me, honestly, from a car guys point of view, is that not a very detailed and interesting kit with a LOT of pieces. Even if the subject itself does not appeal to you.

Yes, that's a very detailed kit with a lot of pieces of a subject that car builders would have no interest in. So what's your point?

[johnbuzzed]

If you guys really want those types of kits produced, perhaps you should contact the manufacturers and let them know. Do your part but I don't think that trying to convince we who don't agree with your points will help your cause.

[Ben]

Tony, I don't know how long you've been around the forum or how deep you are into the culture here. If so, you would know that several of the people involved in this discussion have many years experience in the business. And then there are those of us with direct access to the decision makers in the model manufacturing business.

There were periods of time in our history where the model companies were owned by clueless companies that didn't know or understand what they were selling or how to effectively market model kits. I can say that this has changed and today all the major brands are in the hands of the most knowledgeable, caring cheerleaders for our hobby. Knowing them, I totally trust that they are doing the very best for our hobby with the limited budgets they are faced with today.

I view this statement this way, (assuming you build cars primarily). Think about, if you were at a model contest with one of your best automotive builds. You know you are an accomplished builder as well as all your peers. Then you find out that your model is going to be judged by an armor guy that builds nothing but tanks. He knows models but does he know enough about your subject to know what you had to do to produce the model you present?

[Ben]

Kit manufacturers are not goinn to spend all of the upfront $$$ required to produce kits like this, and then hope there's a market for them. That's not how it works. Again, as I've said about 12 times now, the reason these kits are not being offered is because the manufacturers do not think they would sell in enough numbers to pay back the development costs and turn a profit. If they believed that they would, they would be making the kits!

That's not to say that there is no demand for them. Obviously there is demand... from guys like you who are into those types of vehicles. But once again, the manufacturers obviously don't think the demand is large enough to warrant production of these kits. It's really as simple as that.

Let me give you an example: Say my neighbors and I all love to play cricket. (We don't, I'm just making a point). As far as I can tell, there's a huge demand for a cricket supply store, because all of my neighbors love cricket, so obviously a cricket supply store would be a huge success, right?

Well, not so fast. Just because my neighbors and I all love cricket, that doesn't mean that the whole town loves cricket. And if a cricket store did open, creating a source of cricket supplies, there is absolutely no guarantee that anyone who wasn't into cricket before would suddenly now be, just because there are cricket supplies now available. And just a relative handful of proven cricket lovers (my neighbors and I) are not enough to keep a cricket store operating at a profit... so nobody is going to take the risk of opening a cricket store and operating at a losss. That would be business suicide.

Fully agreed but let me ask you this, If you and your neighbors love Cricket, been playing it most of your lives, Know hundreds of people around the US that love Cricket as well and you have personally spoke with, in phone conversations with absolute die hard Cricket lovers from many countries from all over the world and pretty much EVERY ONE of them said they wish a new type of piece of Cricket equipment would be made (I'm not asking for a hobby shop) wouldn't that lend to make you believe that a new piece of Cricket equipment just may sell well, worldwide!

[Ben]

Yes, they do. Revell's snap-together kits are their top sellers. But you can keep selling the same snap-together kits over and over to new groups of beginning modelers, you have to keep making new glue kits. When's the last time Revell discontinued a snap-together kit?

It's hard for me to remember the Revell's from the Monogram's at the minute but I know all the 1/20 Emergency vehicles and helicopter were cancelled.

[Ben]

Yes, that's a very detailed kit with a lot of pieces of a subject that car builders would have no interest in. So what's your point?

That IS my point! LOL You guys are primarily just that, Car Guys. I am as well, however I build everything and my Primary interest is construction equipment first and heavy trucks after that. I have been a master, automotive, RV and heavy truck tech all my life, been a die hard collector and builder of models for over forty years of my life. You know what I would never do? Tell you guys, who's main interest has always been cars, that a certain type of car kit would never sell well. Because unless it was produced and the sales didn't match or exceed the amount of money invested in producing it, There would be absolutly no way I could know.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Ben