Why not these things

[Guest]

Get a piece of PVC pipe and a spray can of Mr Surfacer. Spray it down from 15 inches or so, to give it some texture. Spray light grey over that. Presto, concrete culvert.

You're welcome.

That would also be a good start on a Duesenburg Mudd coupe. You are welcome.

[LDO]

That would also be a good start on a Duesenburg Mudd coupe. You are welcome.

Yeah, but the Mudd coupe could be reissued with any number of bodies. A concrete pipe is just a concrete pipe.

[Art Anderson]

Not trying to fight either. My point is that if I had those funds, I would have no problem taking the risk because I know it would be a lucrative venture. I'm not foolish enough to invest in something I have no knowledge of, I'm going on years and years of input from fellow modelers. If you were standing in a room of 50,000 modelers where every one of them said they would buy a new construction model kit, would you still think it would not be wise to produce one? Sure, I haven't spoke to 50,000 modelers but over all these years, it has been into the thousands and I'm sure there's many, many more I have never spoke with.

Mebbe take a stab at kickstarter?????

[Tony Bryan]

Ben,

Merely reissuing a model kit almost never equals the production numbers needed on first release of a new kit in order to pay back the costs of bringing it out. Back in the late 1970's, while delivering some box art models to AMT Corporation, I suggested a reissue of the D8H tractor--I was told that when the kit was first issued, in 1972--it literally bombed, badly.

However, considering that the loss on that tooling was written off decades ago, any reissue of it can be done in production runs far smaller than were originally needed for the kit to be profitable, so such costs as are involved in a reissue (and those aren't exactly chopped liver!) can be absorbed and paid back with runs of only a very few thousand kits or so.

Reissue VS newly tooled kit? Apples and Oranges, my friend.

Art

That was 40 years ago, you may not know this but times have changed, and so has model building world wide,

[Brett Barrow]

The reason this kit is selling so well is because of the huge strip mining industry in Germany. Lots of folks see these things every day and want to build one. That being said, I would think that a nice excavator kit might sell well as they are EVERYWHERE on just about every construction site you will see.

Model kit manufacturers, however, need to be able to get the most out of a tooling in order to invest in it. Yes, Moebius made a huge investment in the Lonestar, but look how far they're making that investment stretch: the Prostar is essentially the same kit with a different hood. Being able to make minor adjustments to a tooling to create a new version is key. Should a manufacturer tool up, say, a 30-ton excavator, they may be able to get away with using the same tracks as they don't change much between manufacturers. Different bodies, say a CAT, Komatsu, Hitachi, might make the tooling dollars stretch. All the implements would be interchangeable, too. But that doesn't mean it'll happen.

Revell Germany only made 1,500 pieces of the big excavator reissue. That's a VERY SMALL run. By contrast the typical limited-run SSP reissues are 5,000 pieces. Model King's limited edition kits are typically 3,000-5,000 pieces. New tooling takes around 50,000 pieces to break even these days. That's exactly why Moebius picked the ProStar/LoneStar, the ability to get more than one kit out of a basic tool. Also factor in that Revell Germany is reboxing Moebius' truck kits for the European market.

[Tony Bryan]

If 1/25 or 1/24 scale construction equipment were offered in styrene the demand would be great. It wouldn't matter if it was a Caterpillar, Komatsu or a John Deere. It could be a modern bulldozer, excavator, backhoe or even a grader, it would sell very well. Just because the majority of the replies in this thread have no interest in the subject doesn't mean that the interest doesn't exist. There is an interest, and if such equipment were to be made available it could very well attract builders of other interests.

Well said Anthony, the problem is the people here that are offering there "sound" advise about how well it won't do are like you said, car builders, and in fact have done no research into what truck model builders want, so with that in mind, how do you really know what is wanted in the market place?

You may know a lot about your subject, in fact maybe more than most, but it has really no credibility with what is really wanted, nor where it is wanted,

If construction models where not a big seller then why has revell released there bucket wheel excavator?, in 1/200 scale it doesn't seem main stream, but obviously it has some merits to be developed in the first place

KFS in the UK, saw many years ago and researched what would sell, gee a single man operations put out 2 construction kits, but it didn't stop there either, he produced a modular trailer in various configurations, and a wind mill transporter,as well as a euro low loader all high end stuff, but sold very well, if it didn't then I doubt his company would not be here today, and now is producing 1/24th scale Military models, which is not a standard military scale, would have to ask why???

Risk, well there is always a risk, some sit on there hands complaining while others are doing

The key would be for any company willing to risk new tooling would be to do there research, but in a way that wouldn't offer to many choices, and by that I mean don't offer 6 brand with 12 different products as a survey but limit it to either a dozer or an excavator,

The thing is also, Moebius already have a good business relationship with International, then, development would be easier to produce a dozer of theres, or a scraper or loader from yesteryear

Drake Australia, took a gamble with there own die cast range, to the tune of $120,000 in fact, there first 2500 models sold out in 3 weeks, which showed them what really the market place was for truck models, yep, 1/50 scale, the sales where very unexpected because they under estimated the market,

What is there next move???? To increase there range of 1/50 models and trailers, as well as develop and release a 1/24th version of there trailer which in fact is going to be produced by Italeri, now here is something interesting, they are NOT a model company, in fact they build trailers, but with a lot of insight they produced there own models

Maybe some people making the decisions for models should look out side the BUBBLE the sit in an research world wide , it would give a far more accurate perception of what is wanted, with the biggest markets being outside the States

If moebius can produce the world ugliest truck the "lone star" (great for a donor kit by the way) and have it sell then it really shows what people want, ............ something new, and not a re issue that is inaccurate, that you need to spend more money on aftermarket parts to correct the floors

Like many, this is my opinion, so let the slanging match begin.................

[LDO]

Looks like my sarcasm was uncalled for. Monogram's Duesenberg kits have been reissued several times, therefore a 1/8 scale full detail kit would sell like hotcakes.

As a side note, I have begun manufacturing rose-colored glasses. I'll have a website up soon, where they can be purchased.

[Harry P.]

Well said Anthony, the problem is the people here that are offering there "sound" advise about how well it won't do are like you said, car builders, and in fact have done no research into what truck model builders want...

You guys keep confusing what truck builders want with what the model buying public as a whole wants.

Obviously guys that are into heavy equipment and trucks would want farm/construction kits. That's a no-brainer. But the point we're trying to make here is that the builders who are into those sorts of kits comprise too small a segment for the manufacturers to make a profit in the design, engineering, licensing and manufacture of kits like that. There just aren't enough potential customers out there to make these kits financially viable. Which goes back to what I said in the first place... if the manufacturers believed they could make a profit with kits like that, they would be making them!

A kit manufacturer produces a given kit only if they have a reasonable expectation of making money in the deal. They do not produce kits that they do not feel will be profitable for them. That's how business works. You can argue all day long how you and all your friends would buy these kits... and I'm sure you would buy them. But there aren't enough of you out there to make the kits worthwhile to produce. And that is why these kits aren't being produced.

[Ben]

You guys keep confusing what truck builders want with what the model buying public as a whole wants.

Obviously guys that are into heavy equipment and trucks would want farm/construction kits. That's a no-brainer. But the point we're trying to make here is that the builders who are into those sorts of kits comprise too small a segment for the manufacturers to make a profit in the design, engineering, licensing and manufacture of kits like that. There just aren't enough potential customers out there to make these kits financially viable. Which goes back to what I said in the first place... if the manufacturers believed they could make a profit with kits like that, they would be making them!

A kit manufacturer produces a given kit only if they have a reasonable expectation of making money in the deal. They do not produce kits that they do not feel will be profitable for them. That's how business works. You can argue all day long how you and all your friends would buy these kits... and I'm sure you would buy them. But there aren't enough of you out there to make the kits worthwhile to produce. And that is why these kits aren't being produced.

What I'm wondering is how do they know who would buy a kit of a new, modern piece of construction equipment, if they never even attempt to offer one???? Model truck builders would not be the only potential customers. How do you know for a fact that there are not many, many more that love construction equipment but don't really care for semi trucks? My point here is, none of us know how well a kit like this would do because it has never been offered. From what I have heard from my fellow modelers, leads me to believe it would.

[Art Anderson]

What I'm wondering is how do they know who would buy a kit of a new, modern piece of construction equipment, if they never even attempt to offer one???? Model truck builders would not be the only potential customers. How do you know for a fact that there are not many, many more that love construction equipment but don't really care for semi trucks? My point here is, none of us know how well a kit like this would do because it has never been offered. From what I have heard from my fellow modelers, leads me to believe it would.

Well, since you have correctly put it this way--where are the truck modelers, in a crowd sufficient to absorb say, 50,000 to 100,000 of a newly tooled truck or construction equipment model kit in a 2-year period--of course in 1/25 or 1/24 scale?

Art

[sjordan2]

If there isn't an established market, why would a kit manufacturer gamble on it? As mentioned above, it works in some European markets, but not necessarily worldwide, and the European kits are usually of subjects of little interest in larger markets like the US. Diecast manufacturers understand their market, but that doesn't mean it translates to plastic kit builders.

[Brett Barrow]

I guess nobody remembers these things. I do. Couldn't give 'em away, and they weren't that expensive, maybe $15-$20, IIRC. Sure they're a different scale, but when you can't sell small, cheap, snap together kits of construction equipment, you'll find that it's even harder to sell big, fancy, glue-together kits of construction equipment...

[martinfan5]

I guess nobody remembers these things. I do. Couldn't give 'em away, and they weren't that expensive, maybe $15-$20, IIRC. Sure they're a different scale, but when you can't sell small, cheap, snap together kits of construction equipment, you'll find that it's even harder to sell big, fancy, glue-together kits of construction equipment...

Never seen these before, what year did these come out?

[Guest]

Obviously guys that are into heavy equipment and trucks would want farm/construction kits. That's a no-brainer. But the point we're trying to make here is that the builders who are into those sorts of kits comprise too small a segment for the manufacturers to make a profit in the design, engineering, licensing and manufacture of kits like that. There just aren't enough potential customers out there to make these kits financially viable.

If that segment is so small,then why did Moebius produce the Lonestar and Prostar? Obviously there are enough big truck builders out there to warrant Moebius producing those kits or it wouldn't have happened. Construction and farm equipment could have the potential to sell to both the big truck builders and the average modeler who's into dump trucks and even heavy duty pickups. A farm tractor can be pulled with a half ton pickup. So, they could cross more than one segment of builders.

[Harry P.]

If that segment is so small,then why did Moebius produce the Lonestar and Prostar?

Those are not farm tractor or construction equipment kits.

[Brett Barrow]

Diecast is a completely different market from kits. Basically diecasts are passive, anyone can buy one and immediately display and enjoy it. Kits are a commitment and especially anything as complicated as construction equipment takes a certain level of skill. I've been around facility management and construction all of my career. I've seen a lot of diecast displayed in offices over the years. Much of it was handed out as free premiums wearing some company logo. At one company I saw the above TD40B dozers with a plaque commemorating a construction project glued to the blade. They were handed out to the management of that project and displayed in their offices. So a lot of construction diecast become freebies, even the expensive stuff. And there are those who will collect it with passion and buy them. But very few who want to build it.

Having known Dave Burket, Model King, a long time I've seen that he really has his finger on the pulse of the American modeler. People are always screaming for large scale. Dave did the 1/16 scale Vega funny car. He had a hard time unloading them. He did the '64 Mercury Comet, '70 Buick Electra and a '70ish T-Bird that sold very slow. But every funny car, drag car and race car he did sold out quickly and he sometimes went for a second issue. And note that he aimed to please our very market of the lunatic fringe, wholesaling the kits into our market. And these kits were done in very limited numbers, much less than ever would support a new tool. So we, as a collective group, we are very race car oriented and that's where the manufacturers will focus. Note that even the hallowed Moebius kit selection is based on cars that were historically raced. Same with the recent Revell tools.

Also, with diecast, you have a much higher perceived value to consumers vs a plastic model. The investment to produce a finished die-cast vs a plastic kit really aren't that much different, let's say $200,000 for each. Let's say the plastic kit has a retail of $20 and you need to sell 50,000 pieces. You could sell the diecast for $100 retail, but then you'd only have to sell 10,000 pieces, since it's the same dollar amount. The diecast doesn't really cost any more to produce, but has a much higher perceived value because it's built and painted. When you're talking about Chinese labor, it really doesn't matter if you're molding and packaging 50,000 plastic model kits, or building and painting 10,000 diecast models, it's pretty much the same. But there might be a market for those 10,000 diecast pieces, where there's no market for 50,000 plastic model kits. That's the difference between finished diecasts and plastic kits.

[Deano]

What puzzles me is why anyone would think arguing about it on an internet forum will accomplish anything. What I'm seeing is four or five guys, apparently representing tens of thousands of modelers, posting over and over and hoping that the manufacturers will see their posts and take them seriously. Interesting thread ... carry on.

[Longbox55]

A farm tractor can be pulled with a half ton pickup.

Maybe a modern utility tractor or a vintage Deere/Farmall/Ford. But pretty much any modern farm tractor would vastly overload a 1/2 ton truck.

[Brett Barrow]

Never seen these before, what year did these come out?

I was working in the business, so sometime in the last 10-12 years. I want to say 2004, maybe?

[2000-cvpi]

This is pretty revealing fact, the topic started in the general truck section about what truck modelers would like to see made has only twelve posts. Several from the same guys. Must be a lot of closet construction modelers. Also the first page of posts goes back to the beginning of August. Not much of an online presence for such a huge market.

[Brett Barrow]

Every time one of these "Hey model kit companies, think outside the box, try something different" type threads comes up, I can't help but think of these smoking hot piles of dog excrement. But hey, they thought outside the box and tried something different, didn't they?!?!? These were all pretty nice kits, but man are they dogs in the sales department.

Hey, how 'bout a bass boat? That's different! :

There were several decal variations of each of these non-NASCAR racecars:

I don't know who thought up this one, let's just say it wasn't a winner:

[Art Anderson]

That was 40 years ago, you may not know this but times have changed, and so has model building world wide,

To the best of my knowledge, no reissue of the CAT D8H kit has been a run of more than perhaps 5,000 to 7,000 kits. That's not nearly enough, from what I know of the model kit industry, to suggest that a new kit in that field would generate enough sales to pay back the cost of tooling it, particularly in 1/25 scale.

On the other hand, it's been mentioned in this discussion of a company having put out some 1/35 scale kits of construction equipment. Well, that scale does have a huge following, as it's the primary scale for modelers of military armor and soft-skin vehicles--but even that segment of military modeling (think IPMS types, who do aircraft, armor, ships and military figures & diorama's) is not nearly the market there at aircraft kits are--for whatever reasons. In addition, 1/35 scale construction equipment would be pretty much a natural fit with 1/34 scale diecast model trucks, as that is still a pretty decent market from what I can see.

And yes, of course, times have changed, but one thing hasn't--plastic model companies are simply NOT in Fortune 500 territory--and never have been (although Monogram was owned by Mattel for a number of years, and that toy company was on the Fortune 500 list in those times). For any model company in the US, tooling a new model kit is a major investment--for that reason, the number of new kit releases yearly are fairly small compared to a lot of the general manufacturing industry, and the development/tooling costs are still a major investment, per tool, per a year's announcement of new kits.

Sure, jumping in to do any new model kit release is a risky jump over a cliff--but any model company exec worth his salt to his employer is going to do as much as possible to minimize the risk of losing money on any given product--they simply have to, first of all, for their own job security, and the company itself for its own profitability, even perhaps its own survival in the long run.

Art

[Brett Barrow]

To the best of my knowledge, no reissue of the CAT D8H kit has been a run of more than perhaps 5,000 to 7,000 kits. That's not nearly enough, from what I know of the model kit industry, to suggest that a new kit in that field would generate enough sales to pay back the cost of tooling it, particularly in 1/25 scale.

On the other hand, it's been mentioned in this discussion of a company having put out some 1/35 scale kits of construction equipment. Well, that scale does have a huge following, as it's the primary scale for modelers of military armor and soft-skin vehicles--but even that segment of military modeling (think IPMS types, who do aircraft, armor, ships and military figures & diorama's) is not nearly the market there at aircraft kits are--for whatever reasons. In addition, 1/35 scale construction equipment would be pretty much a natural fit with 1/34 scale diecast model trucks, as that is still a pretty decent market from what I can see.

And yes, of course, times have changed, but one thing hasn't--plastic model companies are simply NOT in Fortune 500 territory--and never have been (although Monogram was owned by Mattel for a number of years, and that toy company was on the Fortune 500 list in those times). For any model company in the US, tooling a new model kit is a major investment--for that reason, the number of new kit releases yearly are fairly small compared to a lot of the general manufacturing industry, and the development/tooling costs are still a major investment, per tool, per a year's announcement of new kits.

Sure, jumping in to do any new model kit release is a risky jump over a cliff--but any model company exec worth his salt to his employer is going to do as much as possible to minimize the risk of losing money on any given product--they simply have to, first of all, for their own job security, and the company itself for its own profitability, even perhaps its own survival in the long run.

Art

I just got to fondle a sample of one of these today:

It's reeeeally nice, but it's $90 retail. We'll see what it ends up streeting at, probably around $75.

I think if we're going to see something like this in 24/25th scale, it would likely come from a company like Meng, one of the smaller newer startup companies looking to make a splash. Meng has been all over the place with their first few releases, I know they have been looking at entering the 24/25th scale market, who knows what kind of subject they would pick, but it could be something like this. If they do, it won't be cheap... But I just don't see one of the mainstream US companies producing something like this in today's market.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Brett Barrow

[martinfan5]

Every time one of these "Hey model kit companies, think outside the box, try something different" type threads comes up, I can't help but think of these smoking hot piles of dog excrement. But hey, they thought outside the box and tried something different, didn't they?!?!? These were all pretty nice kits, but man are they dogs in the sales department.

Hey, how 'bout a bass boat? That's different! :

There were several decal variations of each of these non-NASCAR racecars:

I don't know who thought up this one, let's just say it wasn't a winner:

And whats funny is the Gone Fishing sets seem to be sot after and sell for $25-$70, and over at the NASCAR forum, people are always saying if only Revell would reissue the ASA kits, its funny how kits when new dont sell, but as time goes on, they become hot.

[RodneyBad]

And whats funny is the Gone Fishing sets seem to be sot after and sell for $25-$70, and over at the NASCAR forum, people are always saying if only Revell would reissue the ASA kits, its funny how kits when new dont sell, but as time goes on, they become hot.

Ya never know what ya got till it's gone..