Why not these things

[Erik Smith]

Because most model companies don't listen to their priimary market! Look at Moebius, they chose to produce sublects that have never been attempted by other copmpanies and look how well they are doing! A new construction model has to be produced before it would sell well.

Actually, they do. People who belong to forums ARE NOT the largest market segment for most model kits - we are the lunatic fringe. If they based decisions on market research conducted by enthusiasts, they would be making a hundred different kits of obscure, non-main stream kits that a majority of weekend/once-a-year/impulse buy builders would have zero interest in - and, like it or not, THEY are largest market...

Also, you don't create demand by making a product unless you're APPLE. Nobody would invest in a business plan that states "If we make them, it will create the demand".

Edited August 30, 2013 by Erik Smith

[Ben]

I see, so what your saying is that Moebius, with their 60.00 Lonestar and Prostar kits and Revell with their 100.00 Bill Signs Peterbilt and Stepps Can Do wrecker produced these kits thinking they would draw in builders of the "occasional" model kit rather than the many die hard fans of heavy trucks already heavily into building them? That makes sense.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ben

[Harry P.]

Ben, you're letting your emotions and your own personal desires cloud your judgement. Believe me, if the model companies thought they could make a profit on new farm/construction kits, they would be making them.

[Ben]

Ben, you're letting your emotions and your own personal desires cloud your judgement. Believe me, if the model companies thought they could make a profit on new farm/construction kits, they would be making them.

It's not emotions, Harry. It's my knowledge of this end of our hobby. Have you been a die hard collector and builder of heavy trucks and construction equipment for over 40 years? I have been! I have had thousands of conversations with truck builders from all over the world and I know the kits they have been wishing would be produced! I have had my own line of heavy truck exclusive resin parts that have sold well since 1994.

[Harry P.]

It's not emotions, Harry. It's my knowledge of this end of our hobby. Have you been a die hard collector and builder of heavy trucks and construction equipment for over 40 years? I have been! I have had thousands of conversations with truck builders from all over the world and I know the kits they have been wishing would be produced! I have had my own line of heavy truck exclusive resin parts that have sold well since 1994.

Again, I have to ask the same question. How is it that you are able to see this incredible unmet demand, yet people who make their living manufacturing model kits missed it?

Remember... when you and your truck-loving friends talk about this stuff, you're among a small, self-contained group of people who all share a common interest, but (and this is the important part) just because your particular group is into these things doesn't mean that everyone else is, too!

Example: That's like me taking a poll of only people who like potato-flavored ice cream and asking them if they would like to see more potato-flavored ice cream on the market. Obviously I'd get a strong "heck, YES!" response. But for me to take that strong positive response of potato-flavored ice cream fans and assume that it must then follow that everyone would want potato-flavored ice cream would be a mistake. The enthusiasm of the group that already likes potato-flavored ice cream doesn't necessarily reflect the desires of everyone else out there, it only reflects the interests of that particular group.

Remember... the kitmakers aren't catering only to people who want farm and construction kits. They have to cater to everyone out there and base their kit offerings on those they feel will have the widest appeal. The fact is, when you include the entire customer base, farm and construction guys just aren't that big a piece of the overall pie.

[Erik Smith]

Ben, you're letting your emotions and your own personal desires cloud your judgement. Believe me, if the model companies thought they could make a profit on new farm/construction kits, they would be making them.

I think it's attentional bias - I am not a cognitive specialist...

If you focus on one thing and ignore other possibilities - for example: you get a red car and suddenly, all you notice is how many other red cars there are. In terms of this situation, it's easy to see the demand when you want to see it - and ignoring all the people who would not buy farm tractor kits. 100% of farm tractor enthusiasts would buy a new tractor kit. However, big picture wise, only 5% of ALL modelers would buy a tractor kit. I hope that makes sense...

It's human nature.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Erik Smith

[Harry P.]

I think it's attentional bias - I am not a cognitive specialist...

If you focus on one thing and ignore other possibilities - for example: you get a red car and suddenly, all you notice is how many other red cars there are. In terms of this situation, it's easy to see the demand when you want to see it - and ignoring all the people who would not buy farm tractor kits. 100% of farm tractor enthusiasts would buy a new tractor kit. However, big picture wise, only 5% of ALL modelers would buy a tractor kit. I hope that makes sense...

That makes perfect sense. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

[Dave Van]

If I had that type of funding, I would do just so! I have been in the model truck and construction game for forty years. I know what the guys are asking for!

That IF is the biggest IF ever written!!! I also do a little work in the model railroad hobby. There are some things not made there. I've pitched it to the powers that be....no go. Even if I had the cash.....that's only a quarter of the battle. The connections in Asia or where ever you decide to do this, the extensive engineering that goes into the most simple project, test shots, revisions even shipping.....all cost money, time and effort. It's a lot harder than it looks!

Just trying to inform....not fight.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Dave Van

[Casey]

I think Ben's experience isn't something which should be discounted, but I'm also not ready to agree that sales numbers for the Moebius Lonestar and reefer trailer kits would equate to similar numbers if Revell-AG or similar were to tool up a new lowboy trailer and a Cat 'dozer. I think these "construction" kits (and by that I mean bulldozers, excavators, dump trucks, and the trailers to haul these vehicles around on) do have a unique appeal to people who ordinarily wouldn't buy such a kit, but again, would the potential sales numbers of such a fringe group of buyers, combined with the hardcore big rig/construction modelers be enough to justify the cost of new tooling? And would they move 50,000 kits at $50 each if it's up to the level of the Lonestar kit?

I do think some specialized construction related kits would sell, just not in the same volume as a more mainstream kit. Maybe that's why Moebuis' Lonestar and reefer trailer have done well?

[Guest]

I'm not a big rig builder myself. I only own one kit. But, I think every rig builder out there would love to have something cool like a construction or farm piece to place on a lowboy trailer to go behind their rig. So, the right construction or farm piece could sell as well as the rigs themselves. When I bought my rig, I bought a lowboy trailer, two John Deere tractors and two John Deere backhoes to go with it. That's five pieces to go with the rig. Think about what someone who's serious about them would buy.

[LDO]

Now I see it. I need to form an online club of Duesenberg model builders who are into large scale. We'll get all worked up over the idea of a new tool 1/8 scale full-detail Mudd coupe. Revell will have no choice but tool it up, just because it makes so much sense. It can even include extras, like a bag of groceries that includes potato ice cream. There is no full-detail Duesenberg Mudd coupe in 1/8 scale available at the moment, therefore all your "market data" is irrelevant.

Edited August 30, 2013 by LDO

[LDO]

I'm not a big rig builder myself. I only own one kit. But, I think every rig builder out there would love to have something cool like a construction or farm piece to place on a lowboy trailer to go behind their rig. So, the right construction or farm piece could sell as well as the rigs themselves. When I bought my rig, I bought a lowboy trailer, two John Deere tractors and two John Deere backhoes to go with it. That's five pieces to go with the rig. Think about what someone who's serious about them would buy.

Get a piece of PVC pipe and a spray can of Mr Surfacer. Spray it down from 15 inches or so, to give it some texture. Spray light grey over that. Presto, concrete culvert.

You're welcome.

Edited August 30, 2013 by LDO

[Fabrux]

This is a current issue from Revell. How much money and time do you think they invested in this HUGE kit? This is the second release. Must mean it sold well the first time! http://www.revell.com/germany/other/80-8813.html

The reason this kit is selling so well is because of the huge strip mining industry in Germany. Lots of folks see these things every day and want to build one. That being said, I would think that a nice excavator kit might sell well as they are EVERYWHERE on just about every construction site you will see.

Model kit manufacturers, however, need to be able to get the most out of a tooling in order to invest in it. Yes, Moebius made a huge investment in the Lonestar, but look how far they're making that investment stretch: the Prostar is essentially the same kit with a different hood. Being able to make minor adjustments to a tooling to create a new version is key. Should a manufacturer tool up, say, a 30-ton excavator, they may be able to get away with using the same tracks as they don't change much between manufacturers. Different bodies, say a CAT, Komatsu, Hitachi, might make the tooling dollars stretch. All the implements would be interchangeable, too. But that doesn't mean it'll happen.

[johnbuzzed]

Model CAR club! Take it to a model TRUCK club and see how many guys would be asking where you bought it! Two of those would make a very nice load for a flatbed. If you guys don't build trucks and construction equipment, how can you have an opinion on what would sell well? That would be like me going to a thread on model aircraft and telling the guys in there that a plane they would like to see would never sell well. I mean, I don't build planes, I don't work on real planes but I have the right to tell them that, when they know WAY more about them than I do, would never sell well! This is a model CAR forum with guys that build model CARS. Go to any of the hundreds of model truck forums on Yahoo and Facebook and see if your "model construction equipment would never sell well" fly's over there!

This is not specifically a model car forum, even though the name of the magazine is "Model Cars Magazine" (italics mine). There are sections for trucks and other models here- you just need to look a little harder.

In my opinion, construction and farm equipment kits just would not be the big sellers (at least here in the US) that the manufacturers would need to justify the expense to produce them. As Americans, we all have been or will be DIRECTLY exposed to the "automotive world" in some way in our lives. It's how most of us were brought home from the hospital after we were born and will be the last ride for a lot of us, too. Cars and light trucks (pickups) will always be the "big" sellers because they're all over the place and it seems as though just about everyone has one or the other. Unless you live next to a construction site, farm or mine, the kinds of equipment in question just aren't often seen, and not very popular. NASCAR kits always seem to sell. When you realize that every weekend, for 36 weeks, the world is exposed to them via television, you'll know why. But you won't find too many Bonneville kits on the shelves- they're just not that popular with the "mainstream" general public, even though a majority of them are cars. Same with extreme off-road 4x4s, mud boggers, tractor pullers...RV's...ATVs... If they're not in the face of the general public very often, they're not gonna be big sellers. You can walk into just about any supermarket, big-box discount store or chain bookstore and find all kinds of magazines about ordinary cars, street cars, street rods, drag cars, NASCAR race cars, pickup trucks, low riders, doinks and dubs but not much about big rigs, farm or construction equipment. I'm not saying those kinds of kits won't sell at all but the demand won't be the same as that for the ubiquitous Deuce, '55 Chevy, Shelby Mustang, etc. I'm trying to be generic here, not playing favorites with any particular cars and I mean no offense to anyone who prefers any of the types of vehicles that I mentioned.

I would venture to say that much of the farm and construction equipment is produced as die-cast so that they can be played with, like Tonka and Buddy L stuff. I don't think you'd find too many kids playing out in the yard with built-ups of the old Ertl or AMT kits that have been mentioned.

If you truly want to see something different in kit form, you're gonna have to do a lot of research, networking and "legwork" to get it done. I wish you good luck with that. Otherwise, get a lot of Plastruct and Evergreen and K&S and a lot of swap meet glue-bomb built-ups and have at it. A lot of modelers do that already.

Edited August 30, 2013 by johnbuzzed

[Ben]

That makes perfect sense. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

I agree but what percetange of "all modelers" would buy, lets say...a Lindberg Dodge Caravan??? They ended up being produced. What about a model of a milling machine, what percentage of all modelers would buy that? Out of the two kits I mentioned, the only thing your going to get from the tooling are a Dodge Caravan and a milling machine.

[Ben]

That IF is the biggest IF ever written!!! I also do a little work in the model railroad hobby. There are some things not made there. I've pitched it to the powers that be....no go. Even if I had the cash.....that's only a quarter of the battle. The connections in Asia or where ever you decide to do this, the extensive engineering that goes into the most simple project, test shots, revisions even shipping.....all cost money, time and effort. It's a lot harder than it looks!

Just trying to inform....not fight.

Not trying to fight either. My point is that if I had those funds, I would have no problem taking the risk because I know it would be a lucrative venture. I'm not foolish enough to invest in something I have no knowledge of, I'm going on years and years of input from fellow modelers. If you were standing in a room of 50,000 modelers where every one of them said they would buy a new construction model kit, would you still think it would not be wise to produce one? Sure, I haven't spoke to 50,000 modelers but over all these years, it has been into the thousands and I'm sure there's many, many more I have never spoke with.

[Ben]

I think Ben's experience isn't something which should be discounted, but I'm also not ready to agree that sales numbers for the Moebius Lonestar and reefer trailer kits would equate to similar numbers if Revell-AG or similar were to tool up a new lowboy trailer and a Cat 'dozer. I think these "construction" kits (and by that I mean bulldozers, excavators, dump trucks, and the trailers to haul these vehicles around on) do have a unique appeal to people who ordinarily wouldn't buy such a kit, but again, would the potential sales numbers of such a fringe group of buyers, combined with the hardcore big rig/construction modelers be enough to justify the cost of new tooling? And would they move 50,000 kits at $50 each if it's up to the level of the Lonestar kit?

I do think some specialized construction related kits would sell, just not in the same volume as a more mainstream kit. Maybe that's why Moebuis' Lonestar and reefer trailer have done well?

If you only knew how many guys have been begging for a tri axle, removable gooseneck lowboy for all these years!!!! I honestly believe that if Moebius were to make one, sales would far exceed those of the reefer. We've been begging for that accurate reefer as well and I have personally seen several guys buying them by the case.

[Ben]

Now I see it. I need to form an online club of Duesenberg model builders who are into large scale. We'll get all worked up over the idea of a new tool 1/8 scale full-detail Mudd coupe. Revell will have no choice but tool it up, just because it makes so much sense. It can even include extras, like a bag of groceries that includes potato ice cream. There is no full-detail Duesenberg Mudd coupe in 1/8 scale available at the moment, therefore all your "market data" is irrelevant.

Yes, I'm sure you've spoken with thousands of modelers of older, classic cars and most all of them said that they would love, not just any type of classic car similiar to what the Duesenberg represents but, a Duesenburg Mudd Coupe in 1/8 scale with a load of potato ice cream. Whereas the the modelers I have spoken with, would be happy with any type of new modern construction equipment and the clubs already exist. your post is irrelevent.

[Ben]

Get a piece of PVC pipe and a spray can of Mr Surfacer. Spray it down from 15 inches or so, to give it some texture. Spray light grey over that. Presto, concrete culvert.

You're welcome.

Yes, because a simple piece of pipe is so much easier and rewarding to build than a fully detailed model to use as a load.

[Ben]

The reason this kit is selling so well is because of the huge strip mining industry in Germany. Lots of folks see these things every day and want to build one. That being said, I would think that a nice excavator kit might sell well as they are EVERYWHERE on just about every construction site you will see.

Model kit manufacturers, however, need to be able to get the most out of a tooling in order to invest in it. Yes, Moebius made a huge investment in the Lonestar, but look how far they're making that investment stretch: the Prostar is essentially the same kit with a different hood. Being able to make minor adjustments to a tooling to create a new version is key. Should a manufacturer tool up, say, a 30-ton excavator, they may be able to get away with using the same tracks as they don't change much between manufacturers. Different bodies, say a CAT, Komatsu, Hitachi, might make the tooling dollars stretch. All the implements would be interchangeable, too. But that doesn't mean it'll happen.

The saying that model companies have to be able to produce variants from a single tool holds no water. Revell produced a huge model of an off shore oil rig (yes, I have that too) and again, it was released two times. How many people have a clue of what an off shore oil rig looks like up close. Think of how small of a market that kit had to aimed at and yet........it was still produced! What are you going to get out of the molds of an off shore oil rig...............an off shore oil rig!

[Ben]

This is not specifically a model car forum, even though the name of the magazine is "Model Cars Magazine" (italics mine). There are sections for trucks and other models here- you just need to look a little harder.

In my opinion, construction and farm equipment kits just would not be the big sellers (at least here in the US) that the manufacturers would need to justify the expense to produce them. As Americans, we all have been or will be DIRECTLY exposed to the "automotive world" in some way in our lives. It's how most of us were brought home from the hospital after we were born and will be the last ride for a lot of us, too. Cars and light trucks (pickups) will always be the "big" sellers because they're all over the place and it seems as though just about everyone has one or the other. Unless you live next to a construction site, farm or mine, the kinds of equipment in question just aren't often seen, and not very popular. NASCAR kits always seem to sell. When you realize that every weekend, for 36 weeks, the world is exposed to them via television, you'll know why. But you won't find too many Bonneville kits on the shelves- they're just not that popular with the "mainstream" general public, even though a majority of them are cars. Same with extreme off-road 4x4s, mud boggers, tractor pullers...RV's...ATVs... If they're not in the face of the general public very often, they're not gonna be big sellers. You can walk into just about any supermarket, big-box discount store or chain bookstore and find all kinds of magazines about ordinary cars, street cars, street rods, drag cars, NASCAR race cars, pickup trucks, low riders, doinks and dubs but not much about big rigs, farm or construction equipment. I'm not saying those kinds of kits won't sell at all but the demand won't be the same as that for the ubiquitous Deuce, '55 Chevy, Shelby Mustang, etc. I'm trying to be generic here, not playing favorites with any particular cars and I mean no offense to anyone who prefers any of the types of vehicles that I mentioned.

I would venture to say that much of the farm and construction equipment is produced as die-cast so that they can be played with, like Tonka and Buddy L stuff. I don't think you'd find too many kids playing out in the yard with built-ups of the old Ertl or AMT kits that have been mentioned.

If you truly want to see something different in kit form, you're gonna have to do a lot of research, networking and "legwork" to get it done. I wish you good luck with that. Otherwise, get a lot of Plastruct and Evergreen and K&S and a lot of swap meet glue-bomb built-ups and have at it. A lot of modelers do that already.

I fully agree, cars are much less of a risk to produce as everyone can relate to them. However, just as the beginning of this thread implies, why not try something different? Even some car guys like to venture out and see what other kits are like. I know for a fact that there were many car guys that never built a semi truck but once they saw the prototypes for the Lonestar kit from Moebius, many were saying that maybe it was time they tried building a big rig.

[Casey]

I fully agree, cars are much less of a risk to produce as everyone can relate to them. However, just as the beginning of this thread implies, why not try something different?

Because the risk may be greater than any potential reward, and taking a chance which doesn't pan out can have devastating effects on the entire company.

I think what you want would be perfect for when 3D printing becomes more mainstream, as that method of production seems more suited for lower volume kits without the immense up-front costs.

[johnbuzzed]

I also build aircraft (primarily 1/48 WWII fighters), armor (1/72 and 1/35), naval vessels and some sci-fi subjects. But I started with cars and I'll always be partial to them (and pickups). Way back I did build an GMC Astro, an MPC Mack and a tanker trailer. Again, that was way back- about 40 years ago. I honestly no longer have any interest to build a big rig or any kind of farm or construction equipment- it simply doesn't float my boat- but that doesn't mean I do not appreciate the efforts of another modeler who does.

Through the years, there have been all kinds of kits available, including visible human figures, various bird species, early hot air balloons, blimps, non-functional scale locomotives, pistols and rifles, aircraft cockpits, missile collections, Frankenstein's monster, suits of armor, dinosaurs, giant insects... All had some appeal to someone at sometime, but how many actually are still produced? And they all were and are "different".

I'm not knocking anyone for building whatever they want to build, nor am I saying that there is something wrong with being "different". I have even recently given thought to building some of the N-gauge structures that I have for my (future) layout for something different, and they would be built with the same care and attention to detail as the rest of my modeling subjects. I just have my likes and dislikes and my opinions.

"Why not try something different?" For the manufacturers, the simple answer is: $$$.

[Art Anderson]

I fully agree, cars are much less of a risk to produce as everyone can relate to them. However, just as the beginning of this thread implies, why not try something different? Even some car guys like to venture out and see what other kits are like. I know for a fact that there were many car guys that never built a semi truck but once they saw the prototypes for the Lonestar kit from Moebius, many were saying that maybe it was time they tried building a big rig.

I think a simple answer would be that not since the late John Hanle owned the now-gone JoHan Models Company, has an actual owner of a plastic model company in the US been the principal person making decisions as to what the company will or won't produce. (Of course, Tom Lowe owns Round2 pretty much, and I suspect that he's in the ultimate "driver's seat" where product decisions there are concerned).

In virtually every model company today (and it's been that way for a long, long time) product decisions, and certainly new product development has, and is being done by employees of the company. I don't know of any employee of any company that isn't ultimately responsible to see that what he/she does at work is actually of benefit to his/her employer--do you really?

If the people making product decisions (from the "light bulb" of "inspiration" to the final production item!) are coming up with products that are beneficial to their employer (the company they work for), then all is well and good from that standpoint. BUT, make too many bad calls (and often, a "bad call" on a new product can be so significantly bad as to cause the termination of the person(s) who were responsible for it!) and those employees very likely are going to have to look for another job.

An interesting saying I see every day at work: "Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgement". To me, that statement really says a lot about the issue being discussed here.

Art

[Tom Geiger]

I guess First Gear made an unwise decision to release an International TD40B dozer in 1/24, An International Payscraper in 1/24, an International Payhauler dump in 1/24, An S Series International with tri axle lowboy in 1/24 a S Series dump in 1/24 and a Komatsu dozer in 1/24 with every one of them being in the 200.00 to 300.00 range and every single one of them sold well.

Diecast is a completely different market from kits. Basically diecasts are passive, anyone can buy one and immediately display and enjoy it. Kits are a commitment and especially anything as complicated as construction equipment takes a certain level of skill. I've been around facility management and construction all of my career. I've seen a lot of diecast displayed in offices over the years. Much of it was handed out as free premiums wearing some company logo. At one company I saw the above TD40B dozers with a plaque commemorating a construction project glued to the blade. They were handed out to the management of that project and displayed in their offices. So a lot of construction diecast become freebies, even the expensive stuff. And there are those who will collect it with passion and buy them. But very few who want to build it.

Having known Dave Burket, Model King, a long time I've seen that he really has his finger on the pulse of the American modeler. People are always screaming for large scale. Dave did the 1/16 scale Vega funny car. He had a hard time unloading them. He did the '64 Mercury Comet, '70 Buick Electra and a '70ish T-Bird that sold very slow. But every funny car, drag car and race car he did sold out quickly and he sometimes went for a second issue. And note that he aimed to please our very market of the lunatic fringe, wholesaling the kits into our market. And these kits were done in very limited numbers, much less than ever would support a new tool. So we, as a collective group, we are very race car oriented and that's where the manufacturers will focus. Note that even the hallowed Moebius kit selection is based on cars that were historically raced. Same with the recent Revell tools.