slight rant about differences

[wagonmaster]

Well I went to an IPMS chapter model show today. While it was a nice show about 150 entries. What irked me was llooking at some of the aircraft models. it seems like you can get loads more aftermarket parts for aircraft than you ever can for car models. Even the tiny 1/72 scale you can get photoetched grills, intakes, engine parts, Etc. and highly detailed resin cocpits etc. So where are the same for the car modelers? no where to be found

Rant off

Tim

[Bigjeff]

yep...i'm mostly a armor modeler, i will spend sometimes twice as much on PE than on a kit when i want to make it real nice

[Harry P.]

Well I went to an IPMS chapter model show today. While it was a nice show about 150 entries. What irked me was llooking at some of the aircraft models. it seems like you can get loads more aftermarket parts for aircraft than you ever can for car models. Even the tiny 1/72 scale you can get photoetched grills, intakes, engine parts, Etc. and highly detailed resin cocpits etc. So where are the same for the car modelers? no where to be found

Rant off

Tim

Armor modelers are much more willing to pay extra for aftermarket detail parts, because in armor modeling accuracy is goal #1. And more armor modelers are adults, with adult size wallets. A lot of car modelers are A: kids, B: not too concerned with accuracy, and C: cheap. Aftermarket PE detail sets exist for a lot of model cars, but I think that in general, model car builders as a group just aren't as fanatic about absolute accuracy and detail as armor modelers are, and aren't willing to spend the $$$ on detail parts like armor modelers are. Of course there are exceptions, but I'm talking about your average model car builder. There have been topics posted here on the forum about how much you would ever spend on any one model, and a lot of guys said they would never spend more than $20 or so!!! So obviously, they're not going to be putting out the money for aftermarket detail parts. And the aftermarket knows that, so the availability of detail parts for model cars is more limited than that for armor/military models.

[Bigjeff]

There have been topics posted here on the forum about how much you would ever spend on any one model, and a lot of guys said they would never spend more than $20 or so!!!

I'm curently building a Cougar AVGP...paid 35$ for the kit and 25$ for the PE...and that's a cheap one!...I got a Scud laucher in my stach that I paid 45$ for and i'm putting money aside for the PE...over 100$ worth!! so yeah, armor is not a kids game anymore :P

[Ridge Rider]

I agree we are cheap to begin with overall, but who customizes and makes military vehicles into show, drag, custom, street, modified, stock and whatever else the heart desires. They go for accuracy and do count the rivets.

[zenrat]

...who customizes and makes military vehicles into show, drag, custom, street, modified, stock and whatever else the heart desires...

These guys do.

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php?action=forum

No rivet counting, just imagination.

[Ridge Rider]

I wasn't implying that they don't customize military but that the plentiful aftermarket parts are to make more accurate 1:1 models unlike the the auto industry with so much diversity. I could have maybe worded that better. No diss to the military modelers

[niteowl7710]

I suppose when out comes to wild fantasy customs where it's "all show and no go" so to speak accuracy might be meaningless as how accurate is your imagination.

But otherwise factory stock, mild custom, drag, pro-touring, etc all exist with a pretty defined set of "rules".as what makes something accurate and how it should be detailed "correctly".

Any given vehicle might offer more building styles than a MiG, or a M1A1, but without stirring the the "I build how I want hornets nest", I don't accept "more variety" as a substitute for accuracy and proper replication.

[mikemodeler]

Also keep in mind that us automotive modelers tend to kitbash whereas the military guys probably can't as easily. Many of us have bought a kit for the sole purpose of the wheels or engine in that kit to be used on another build.

There are those that build cars with great detail and accuracy and then there are those that build for the enjoyment of seeing a childhood memory or dream come to life. We have also accepted the fact that model kit manufacturers can sell us kits with only 1 radiator hose, an alternator that works without any support brackets, and other inaccurate details or omitted parts.

[Tom Geiger]

Armor modelers are much more willing to pay extra for aftermarket detail parts, because in armor modeling accuracy is goal #1. And more armor modelers are adults, with adult size wallets. A lot of car modelers are A: kids, B: not too concerned with accuracy, and C: cheap. Aftermarket PE detail sets exist for a lot of model cars, but I think that in general, model car builders as a group just aren't as fanatic about absolute accuracy and detail as armor modelers are, and aren't willing to spend the $$$ on detail parts like armor modelers are. Of course there are exceptions, but I'm talking about your average model car builder. There have been topics posted here on the forum about how much you would ever spend on any one model, and a lot of guys said they would never spend more than $20 or so!!! So obviously, they're not going to be putting out the money for aftermarket detail parts. And the aftermarket knows that, so the availability of detail parts for model cars is more limited than that for armor/military models.

I agree and want to add a few points. The guys Harry is speaking of are the US car modelers, whose world revolves around muscle cars and hot rods. Not only are we cheap as a group, but we are a rather finite set of modelers. Our subject matter is very US, and doesn't sell well outside this market. You will find that builders of other types of cars, such as high end Ferarris, F-1 and other Internationally known vehicles are much more likely to spend money.

Armor is an international market. The same kits that sell in the USA will sell in Europe and Japan. There is a much wider market for the aftermarket parts, and the buyers are used to spending more money. This also goes for other venues such as figure builders, and the Sci Fi Market. We don't have to look much further than our own Round 2 to see how many kits they are releasing for Star Trek (13 dif new kits between 2012-13). Polar Lights has just released a 1/350 scale USS Enterprise that is going for $99 on eBay.. the lighting kit for this model is $125! I also saw a photo etch kit for $40. And you know, they're selling well. The eBay seller who had the lighting kit on a Dutch Auction sold 12 already. Our guys would have a canary! I can only imagine the boards.. heck, if the Moebius Ford pickups hit $50, there would be anarchy here!

We are our own worst enemies!

Edited October 13, 2013 by Tom Geiger

[raildogg]

Opinion only.

I too, have issues with the model car and truck builders of the craft. The manufacturers, less than forward thinking has made us want things that they are not willing to give.

What if, we had as much, in aftermarket items, as we have to, scratch build those items if we want to, then we would be just as accurate and customizable as all the rest of the genres out there.

Some of those genres are not so popular here in the U.S as say, Japan. Have you seen the amount of stuff available for their cartoon and anime modelers.

Whether its accuracy or detail we suffer from a short sighted buying public.

We, who continue to buy the same Mustang, or NASCAR model over and over, and over, again. So don't wonder why they get more than us anymore. It's all about marketing and demand.(there would be anarchy here)

This is my opinion only and does not reflect this or any other forums central ideals and goals.

Thank You.

Edited October 13, 2013 by raildogg

[raildogg]

Opps sorry.

Edited October 13, 2013 by raildogg

[Daddyfink]

I don't know how many times someone has stepped up to produce some nice aftermarket piece for car modelers, from decals to bodies, and the first reactions are positive. When does it come out? I am getting so many of these, cast them, print then, make them and we will buy it!!

And then they make it, and only a few buy it. So, do you still expect these folks who make the aftermarket stuff to keep making it? I wouldn't! Some do it out of their passion for the hobby, but, economically, they usually get bit in the butt for it. They have to recoup their cash to keep making stuff, and if you don't buy it, there is no more cash.

There are those that strive for to get as close to perfect on their builds and most of them have the incredible skill to scratch build what they need. And they will also step up and buy said products if they are well done.

So please, stop the lamenting over the lack of aftermarket parts for our part of the hobby if you are not willing to support in the way it really counts, with your wallet!

[Agent G]

I agree and want to add a few points. The guys Harry is speaking of are the US car modelers, whose world revolves around muscle cars and hot rods. Not only are we cheap as a group, but we are a rather finite set of modelers. Our subject matter is very US, and doesn't sell well outside this market. You will find that builders of other types of cars, such as high end Ferarris, F-1 and other Internationally known vehicles are much more likely to spend money.

Armor is an international market. The same kits that sell in the USA will sell in Europe and Japan. There is a much wider market for the aftermarket parts, and the buyers are used to spending more money. This also goes for other venues such as figure builders, and the Sci Fi Market. We don't have to look much further than our own Round 2 to see how many kits they are releasing for Star Trek (13 dif new kits between 2012-13). Polar Lights has just released a 1/350 scale USS Enterprise that is going for $99 on eBay.. the lighting kit for this model is $125! I also saw a photo etch kit for $40. And you know, they're selling well. The eBay seller who had the lighting kit on a Dutch Auction sold 12 already. Our guys would have a canary! I can only imagine the boards.. heck, if the Moebius Ford pickups hit $50, there would be anarchy here!

We are our own worst enemies!

I whole heartedly agree.

Most recognize that I am first and foremost an armor modeller. The huge international community demands the full attention of the manufacturers. On such company produces so many variants of German armor in the WW II period, they are seperated by dates of manufacture of the real vehicle! Armor modellers buy each and every one, plus the PE to go with it.

One point I want to make. While there is some kitbashing that takes place, it is usually only for a specific variant obtainable no other way. The AM scene is so vast with armor and aircraft accessory sets, kitbashing is mostly unnecessary. Again the vast international market allows for this to flourish.

In a way we are comparing apples to oranges.

G

[dmk]

When I got back into modeling a few years back, it was aircraft that got my interest first, then after a few years of that I got back into automotive as well. I actually found it quite liberating that car models are generally cheaper and that there are less aftermarket upgrades being used by the community.

I like that I can follow builds of various kits on the forums and see builders using ingenuity, common materials, and tricks with paint or texture to improve the details or shortcomings of a kit. It's a lot of fun to use these techniques in your next build. Most aircraft modelers just buy some expensive resin or PE to improve things and then fight with them to fit them in. It seems every kit build in the forums gets a resin cockpit or landing gear bay. I just don't find that fun at all.

Does anyone actually enjoy trying to fit a resin part into a kit? Does anyone actually enjoy trying to bend, shape and attach PE? It's just more expense and frustration. Scratch building and using ingenuity is fun, creative and gives you a sense of building something.

I'm not a good scratch builder, but I learn something from others in the community and that helps me do small things on every build. I'd hate to see the automotive community lose that and move to merely buying and fitting detail.

[62rebel]

I have seen a lot of photo-etched parts added to model cars that simply do not look "right". they may be 100% accurate and in scale, but they just don't LOOK right. if the intent of the CAR modeler is to draw attention to a specific detail, it should come across as realistic as possible, not just scale accurate. there are compromises we accept in building models, at least I do. if the kit maker went to the effort of making a detail a separate part, I applaud them for that. if they're limited by old technology, then I accept that and if I can, I make an effort to improve on the kit offering. many resin parts (not KITS, just detail parts) that I've seen just don't seem to be worth the cost for the amount of labor involved in adding them to a kit. then again, I don't use a lot of resin and my experiences are limited.

I used to build armor, and when people started drilling machine gun barrels in 1/35th scale I lost interest. functional tracks were lost on me as well. ninety percent of what can be added to a tank interior will never be seen again once the kit is done. same with many aircraft kits. who can see the separate rudder pedals in the cockpit of a 1/72 p38? not my aging eyes.

[MAGNUM4342]

...AAaaaaand here we are AGAIN. Our monthly argument about "the railroad and armor guys get more than us" Does it ever occur to anyone that the rail and armor guys NEED the extras? Does it ever occur to anyone we car modelers are much more resourceful than they? Quit the whining about what we DON'T have and be grateful for what we DO! Then, if it still bothers everyone so much that there's no 1972 Nova dash script available, do something about it rather than moan and be a whiney the pooh!

[Shardik]

I guess I have a different perspective. When I built models back in the 60's and 70's what you got was what was in the box. Be it aircraft, armor or automotive, if you wanted more realism and/or detail you added your own (ie: thread from mom's sewing kit for plug wires). Now, getting back into the hobby after a loooooong absence, I find pre-wired magnetos, wheels and tires of every description and throtle return springs, for Pete's sake! I thought I had died and gone to modeler's heaven.

Any more after market stuff, and I'm afraid we'll start to lose our creativity. Now, where did I put that sewing kit?

[Tom Geiger]

" Does it ever occur to anyone that the rail and armor guys NEED the extras? Does it ever occur to anyone we car modelers are much more resourceful than they?

There was an article a while back that said that car builders had it lucky because our kits came with much detail right out of the box. The armor guys had to create their own detail to build convincing replicas because their kits (especially aircraft) were just a few parts.

Personally I build automotive subjects because they are in my soul. I grew up on army posts as a military dependent and the armor and such never grabbed my attention at all. And being creative, I always build models with my own personal touch. That's not possible with military subjects since you are trying to achieve a perfect replica.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Tom Geiger

[Shardik]

There was an article a while back that said that car builders had it lucky because our kits came with much detail right out of the box. The armor guys had to create their own detail to build convincing replicas because their kits (especially aircraft) were just a few parts.

I don't know who wrote that article, but they're nuts. I build armor and aircraft also, and I've got a panzer IV on my bench right now that has 2300 parts straight from the box! That's 1:35 scale folks. The simple truth is that tanks and planes are alot more complex than cars (They're government projects, after all).

[MAGNUM4342]

I don't know who wrote that article, but they're nuts. I build armor and aircraft also, and I've got a panzer IV on my bench right now that has 2300 parts straight from the box! That's 1:35 scale folks. The simple truth is that tanks and planes are alot more complex than cars (They're government projects, after all).

Thus proving my point that military modelers need that stuff. While we car builders are much more creative and resourceful. What I am trying to say is, in a world where everything we want is right there pre-fabbed, creativity dies off. Mankind no longer has to think and create for themselves. Instead of lamenting the lack of an item CREATE it. Most car models are as unique as the builders themselves. A WWII T-72? They ALL look alike with the exception of the camo patterns and decals.

Edited October 13, 2013 by MAGNUM4342

[Bigjeff]

A WWII T-72?

Proof you're not a tank builder t72 didn't come out until the 60s

Seriously, the only similarities between ASV and car building are the material used...it's 2 totaly different worlds, I like building tanks and planes because the challenge is to make them as close as possible to the real thing AND wethering is so much fun with them!!

I like building cars because they look good and I can be ceative building them

[Bennyg]

I think we automotive builders/enthusiasts have it fairly good. We all want more, who doesn't? It looks like tamiya has stepped up its game even more. Laferarri has photo etch and carbon fibre declaring as optional extras. Pretty cool I think.

Ben

[Harry P.]

Thus proving my point that military modelers need that stuff. While we car builders are much more creative and resourceful.

The biggest difference between military and car modelers, IMO, is in military modeling there is no emphasis on "creativity." The emphasis is on correctness, scale fidelity, accurate detail, etc... in other words, how much does the model look like the real thing? In military modeling, almost always the modeler is not trying to be "creative, " he's trying to build an accurate replica of a specific 1/1 subject, so aftermarket detail parts that add to the detail level of the kit are a very big part of that. The selection of aftermarket stuff available for military kits is amazing.

Model car building has a far wider range of "acceptable" styles. While a military modeler isn't going to put huge chrome wheels and a flame paint job on a Jeep, a car modeler might... because for a lot of car modelers, faithfulness to a particular 1/1 subject isn't their goal. Their goal is to be "creative" and build a model that doesn't necessarily look like any real car, or is even feasible in full scale, but is an expression of their own tastes. Sure, there are car modelers that do strive for accuracy and detail, but there are many that don't. Car modeling is seen as a less "serious" form of modeling than military modeling.

Military and car modelers are apples and oranges.

[Bigjeff]

The biggest difference between military and car modelers, IMO, is in military modeling there is no emphasis on "creativity." The emphasis is on correctness, scale fidelity, accurate detail, etc... in other words, how much does the model look like the real thing? In military modeling, almost always the modeler is not trying to be "creative, " he's trying to build an accurate replica of a specific 1/1 subject, so aftermarket detail parts that add to the detail level of the kit are a very big part of that. The selection of aftermarket stuff available for military kits is amazing.

Model car building has a far wider range of "acceptable" styles. While a military modeler isn't going to put huge chrome wheels and a flame paint job on a Jeep, a car modeler might... because for a lot of car modelers, faithfulness to a particular 1/1 subject isn't their goal. Their goal is to be "creative" and build a model that doesn't necessarily look like any real car, or is even feasible in full scale, but is an expression of their own tastes. Sure, there are car modelers that do strive for accuracy and detail, but there are many that don't. Car modeling is seen as a less "serious" form of modeling than military modeling.

Military and car modelers are apples and oranges.

It sounds so much smarter when YOU say it!!!!! :P :P