Plastic vs. diecast

[oldcarfan]

After going through various online catalogs I am left with one question. Why is there such variety in diecast 1/24 model companies? Is it simply that the detail and subsequent development cost is less so they can produce more products? I bought a 1940 Plymouth pickup and have seen many other obscure vehicles that I would love to see as kits, detailed or curbside.

[Greg Cullinan]

Good question. I wouldn't think it would be lack of detail cause the plastic company's could be doing curbsides,snap kits and revamp promos.

I know I've seen the excuse for lack of plastic blamed on trademarks and licensing, I'd imagine die cast has the same costs. Must be that die cast is a much larger market and profits.

[oldcarfan]

Could be the market is bigger. I wish that if nothing else the diecast makers would do like Revell and release their stuff in plastic too. There is so much cool stuff out there.

[Daddyfink]

Models - Require some skill to assemble and provides hours of enjoyment

Die Cast - Glorified pull toys that offer instant gratification and turn into instant dust collection systems

[Guest]

Die Cast - Glorified pull toys that offer instant gratification and turn into instant dust collection systems

Try looking here http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83246 I think your opinion will do a 180.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Models - Require some skill to assemble...

This is the operative phrase. The models in the thread Roger linked to are all significantly modified, requiring skills the VAST majority of die-cast buyers are not going to acquire in this lifetime.

One of my neighbors collects diecasts, as well as sports memorabilia. It's as likely that he will ever become a modeler as it is that he'll become a professional athlete.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Art Anderson]

After going through various online catalogs I am left with one question. Why is there such variety in diecast 1/24 model companies? Is it simply that the detail and subsequent development cost is less so they can produce more products? I bought a 1940 Plymouth pickup and have seen many other obscure vehicles that I would love to see as kits, detailed or curbside.

With only a couple of notable exceptions (Revell being one) pretty much where diecast models/collectible toys and plastic model kits are concerned, seldom ever have these two genre's ever been joined under the same company roof. They are, still, very different companies that do one or the other, and very different markets. Sure, there are modelers who "cross over" and buy at least a few diecasts, and vice-versa there are diecast collectors who from time to time will build a model car.

As for development costs, unless one is looking at a seriously high-end diecast (those that retail above $100), yes pretty much, the development costs are considerably less for a diecast model car in 1/25-1/24, than for the same subject in 1/25 scale plastic. For example, a model company might well invest well over $150,000 in a new model car kit tool, where that Plymouth pickup you mention (based on my experience several years ago developing diecast cars) might represent a total of less than $30,000 to bring into production. As a result, for much of the past 20 years or so, there have been a lot more different car and truck subjects done in diecast than were model kits created in the same time frame.

I would also submit that model car kits appeal to an audience, while certainly larger than most of us might think, are a much narrower market than the market for diecasts, as those can appeal to a much wider age range, and tend to give that "instant gratification" of being able to hold the finished item in your hand as soon as you can get it out of the package. Additionally, diecasts can be played with at least to some degree (the more expensive, more highly detailed, and those having lots of opening or movable parts tend to be considerably more delicate--more susceptible to wear and breakage), and do attract those who want the model without "the hassle" of having to build it (even though we here probably prefer the building experience!).

From the retail perspective, a diecast can create more sales dollars into the cash register in a shorter period of time, and doesn't have, from the merchant's viewpoint, the aggravation of having to stock paint, glue, or any tools; not to mention a lot less "returns" do to at-least-alleged missing parts. While this probably doesn't bother your LHS, it's pretty certain to me that the management of the mass retail 'big box" stores see that.

It's just that there are a lot of reasons, not any one in particular as why there seems to be more emphasis on one medium over the other. As for the companies who make either diecast or plastic model kits--there really isn't much crossover there, even though Revell's done their share of diecast model cars over the years, and Round2, because of the owner's own business model, produces both lines of model vehicles, albeit mostly limited numbers of reissued older product.

However, for whatever it's worth in this discussion--the market for diecast model cars, in pretty much every scale, is a great deal smaller than it was 15 years ago--many of the companies producing diecasts back in 1998 have disappeared completely, and those that are still in that business have shrunk considerably over the last 10-12 years. On the other hand, the market for plastic model car kits is in pretty good shape, and surprisingly (I think, and happily so) stable.

Art

[Lownslow]

Models - Require some skill to assemble and provides hours of enjoyment

Die Cast - Glorified pull toys that offer instant gratification and turn into instant dust collection systems

Find the shortest pier and jog off it

[heinz74]

you all seem to be forgetting about 1/18 Diecast and resin models,which IS big over here in Europe

companys like AutoArt ,Minichamps,Ottomobile,GT spirit produce some real nice yet expensive models

with AutoArt neck and shoulders above all the rest of them

most online buy and sell websites have a huge catagorie for this ,and a very small one for plastic kits..

i think it also has to do with the fact that while there are so many US cars in kitform produced there aren't many euro mainstream cars out there

and even if you find some.often they don't look right..

also the market for aftermarket stuff like wheels and things is quite big, and some guys over here go to great lenghts to totally rebuild these cars (me included)

scratchbuilding engines and interiors an all...

i guess it's all down to each individual culture ..statewise or eurowise

[Daddyfink]

Find the shortest pier and jog off it

Only if your holding my hand!

[Daddyfink]

Just to make it clear. We are talking about store bought model kits and stock die cast cars.

Not modified die cast or specialty resin or aftermarket kits. Capice!?

[Art Anderson]

you all seem to be forgetting about 1/18 Diecast and resin models,which IS big over here in Europe

companys like AutoArt ,Minichamps,Ottomobile,GT spirit produce some real nice yet expensive models

with AutoArt neck and shoulders above all the rest of them

most online buy and sell websites have a huge catagorie for this ,and a very small one for plastic kits..

i think it also has to do with the fact that while there are so many US cars in kitform produced there aren't many euro mainstream cars out there

and even if you find some.often they don't look right..

also the market for aftermarket stuff like wheels and things is quite big, and some guys over here go to great lenghts to totally rebuild these cars (me included)

scratchbuilding engines and interiors an all...

i guess it's all down to each individual culture ..statewise or eurowise

Henry,

I don't think I forgot Europe at all here. I am very aware of many of the offerings in diecast model cars in, and from Europe and the UK (for years I collected Matchbox, Corgi, Dinky, Solido and Rio miniatures. I carried some of the first Bburago 1/18 scale diecast models in my hobby shop back in the 1980's. However, the plastic scale model hobby, building from kits, pretty much began here in the United States starting about 1951, and of course that's tended to be oriented toward model kits of American cars, with a few European and British cars done in model kits by US companies over the decades. I've also seen, and built at least a few of the kits of European cars produced by such as Airfix, Heller, Italeri, Revell of Germany--even have a couple of kits here made in the former Soviet Union.

The original question at the start of this thread asked a much simpler question, which I at least attempted to answer, based on my experiences, where I've been in this hobby (and parts of the industry as well) over the past now 61 years.

Art Anderson

[kruleworld]

I just wish some of those diecast manufacters would get into selling their product in kit form. more subjects for us and it might turn some of those 'collectors' into builders.

[kruleworld]

companys like AutoArt ,Minichamps,Ottomobile,GT spirit produce some real nice yet expensive models

but why don't they offer them in kit form (or more correctly, in complete knock-down (CKD) form) as a side line? apart from special packaging, there's no change to the product.

[53Suburban]

you all seem to be forgetting about 1/18 Diecast and resin models,which IS big over here in Europe

companys like AutoArt ,Minichamps,Ottomobile,GT spirit produce some real nice yet expensive models

with AutoArt neck and shoulders above all the rest of them

most online buy and sell websites have a huge catagorie for this ,and a very small one for plastic kits..

i think it also has to do with the fact that while there are so many US cars in kitform produced there aren't many euro mainstream cars out there

and even if you find some.often they don't look right..

also the market for aftermarket stuff like wheels and things is quite big, and some guys over here go to great lenghts to totally rebuild these cars (me included)

scratchbuilding engines and interiors an all...

i guess it's all down to each individual culture ..statewise or eurowise

I had a lot of fun "modifying" this 1:18 diecast Mustang

Edited January 3, 2014 by 53Suburban

[Art Anderson]

Art, could you go into why the development costs are less for diecast?

Except for the very high-end diecast scale models such as Franklin or Danbury Mint, Highway 61, Auto-Art, which are masterpieces of ready-assembled, painted and detailed scale models, the vast majority of diecast model cars and trucks are actually quite simple. Case in point:

Nine years ago, while at Johnny Lightning Division of Playing Mantis, I was assigned to develop a small series of 1/24 scale diecast models, one of which was their '57 Ford Courier Sedan Delivery. Now, to the untrained eye (less sophisticated, probably not a model car builder), from say, 3 feet away, it looks as nice as the new Revell '57 Ford Custom 2dr sedan. It's when you look closely, pick it up, turn it over that the differences between this $35 MSRP diecast and the $25 Revell model kit become very apparent.

The diecast body is a one piece shell with hinged hood--that's not a lot different in engineering than the Revell body. The interior is at best 4 ABS plastic pieces (most popularly priced diecasts have an interior molded in one piece flat, with relieving "grooves" molded in to allow the sidewalls to be folded upright to form an "interior tub", the two seats being molded as part of the floor (it's a sedan delivery, so no rear seats. The dash and steering wheel are separate parts, engineered to be snap/press fit in assembly. There is a clear windshield and back window. The ABS plastic engine under the hood is just two pieces, the engine itself with a separate air cleaner, again, two parts simply press-fitted together. The ABS plastic chassis is one piece with some surface detail, very much like a 1960's promotional model. Each ABS wheel is three parts (rim, plated hubcap and PVC tire). There are clear headlight lenses, with a pair of clear red taillight lenses. The ABS plastic plated parts are the grille, front and rear bumpers, of course the hubcaps, along with a pair of outside rear view mirrors, making a total of just 30 parts. Now, compare that with the 90-100 parts, all pretty much correctly scaled and detailed, in the Revell model kit, and that is where the difference in upfront, or capital investment cost lies with diecast vs plastic model kit.

For every part or piece in both a diecast model and a plastic model kit, there is a cost--that of course varies according to the complexity of the particular part, but most generally I suspect the cost per component is pretty close one versus the other, although the body shell for a popularly priced diecast doesn't require nearly the engineering/pattern-maker's finesse that a plastic kit does--almost all the work in developing a diecast body shell goes into exterior shapes and detailing. The same is true also of many of the ABS parts, as only those which are clearly visible with the model sitting on a shelf have to be particularly accurate and finely detailed. In cutting the tooling, there is a fixed cost for each tool-base (the basic block of steel in which all the parts cavities are engraved, plus generally a charge for each part engraved there.

So, the upfront costs of a popular-priced diecast model (such as you might see on an ordinary retail store's shelf) is certainly a great deal less than they necessarily are for the type of model car kit we on forums like this expect to see when we open the box. Of course, many wonder why a diecast sells for as much or more than a nice model kit: That's due to the fact that almost without exception, diecast models are sold as assembled and finished products as opposed to kit form. Probably with this '57 Courier, there were upwards of 75 or 80 production "stations" set up to mass-produce this model.

While the basic body color on this model is white, which was painted in groups of perhaps 25 or 30 body shells at a time by one worker using an ordinary production spray gun (such as you might see in a body shop!), and then the painted bodies run through a drying oven to bake the white paint on, every other color was either "spray-masked" or Tampo (pad printed) on. "Spray masking" uses a simple semi-automatic sprayer fitted with a specially formed copper "mask" against which the part of the body shell to be painted a second color is held, the operator simply stepping on a pedal and "pssssst", the second color. Depending on the complexity of the color scheme, there can be multiple spray mask steps to complete all the secondary colors (in the case of this Courier, it's done in 1950's Coca Cola livery, so the secondary colors sprayed are Coca Cola Red, and Coca Cola yellow), along with silver paint spray-masked where "chrome trim" would be on the real car--each mask and spray operation here is a separate one as well. Last comes the pad, or "Tampo" printing. Each emblem, stripe and logo is a separate pad print operation, and in the case of the Ford crest on the tailgate handle, four pad print operations (black, red, white and blue). Just as with the spray mask, every pad print step is a single operation, one operator and one machine.

All the rest were pretty much hand operations, what we in the US call "light assembly". These range from the filing and cleanup of casting flash and attachment points (diecast is done on sprues, just like styrene plastic kit parts, to the folding up of the interior molding, adding the dash and steering wheel, inserting the clear windows, adding each part to the body shell and so on. Every production step was broken down in true mass-production fashion, each worker performing just one operation and then passing the product on to the next station.

By contrast, the packaging line for a model kit has a lot fewer stations.

I hope this long description helps!

Art

[sjordan2]

Art, I've seen you discuss this subject before, but this is the most concise post yet. I think others may be interested in your discussion of how diecast models don't translate directly to the possibility of plastic kit versions.