Pocher Rolls Sedanca

[Cato]

You've had over 3,400 views in a month. I'd say that's pretty good for a forum that has a heavy accent on American muscle. Meanwhile, there are a lot of us who are learning from these experienced comments.

Yeah but that's just about 5 of us!

[David G.]

Cato,

This is a very unusual project and many- most of us will never have the opportunity see one of these kits, let alone build one. Given that, I believe that this thread makes an important contribution to this forum and the hobby as a whole.

So, keep on posting!

David G.

[Cato]

Cato,

This is a very unusual project and many- most of us will never have the opportunity see one of these kits, let alone build one. Given that, I believe that this thread makes an important contribution to this forum and the hobby as a whole.

So, keep on posting!

David G.

Thanks again David.

Harry, Rick, Mark and Frank have banged-out quite a few of these over time. They are the real contributors to the hobby.

I'm just trying to do the best thing I ever did-once.

[comp1839]

cato,

i, for one, am enjoying the build. i've never built a pocher so i have nothing to offer. as far as your veiw count goes. i hope it's not your motivation to build. it's obvious skippy and company are driving the numbers up for you. it's a shame, the build doesn't require the mount everest club's count medeling. you have fantastic modeling skills, great attention to detail and you should let your work speak for itself. again, fantastic work.

[Cato]

Dave,

Thanks for your compliments. Inspiration for my work comes from guys like you-fabricators. I've learned scads from your threads and only dream about having the skills and tools that you do.

Do not misunderstand; I have no interest in 'view count' or any other count. I'm not an 'atta-boy' guy. I don't seek compliments. Actually, I seek constructive criticism; those that say 'there's a better way' or 'you've got this wrong' or even, 'that just doesn't look good'. Hopefully those that say 'I've found a better / easier way to do such and such' will jump on board. And anyone is free to question my taste and aesthetics.

My wish is that this WIP would foster a dialog among greater and lesser-skilled builders. That's the only way I can get the reward of learning. If I cause someone to lose the 'fear factor' and jump in and actually purchase an oldie like this, so much the better. I love helping when I can-very rewarding. For that reason, I jump into Cobra threads to share my 27 years-worth of 1:1 experience so as to help a guy produce a more accurate Cobra in scale. But I realize that not everyone wants that sort of input. I also strive to stretch beyond my comfort---and believe me, this model is my personal sternest test beyond my 1:1 project.

I think it's become almost a 'blog' (hate that word!) by me and am feeling that viewers don't want that minute an examination of this model. I should try to balance my presentation so it doesn't become a 'shop manual' for Pocher RRs.

Harry's 540 Benz was an excellent example of a project that simply shed tips and how-to's on every page and had universal appeal and dialog. We all learned a lot from that.

A better and balanced presentation of the subject (Pochers) will come when Rick and Harry post their builds with some frequency. Rick is hard at work on his Fiat but Harry has to fix his toilet first...

[Eric Macleod]

Cato,

I appreciate your willingness to let us see this build and to enter into a dialogue. With that said, the only criticism I have of the build is you have a wonderfully, and correctly, weathered exhaust system...underneath what appears to be a 100 point restored car. Maybe a bit of weathering to the rest of the chassis and undercarriage might add to the incredible realism? The other thing, from my experience, every RR I have driven spews some coolant when it is hot. Invariably coolant winds up discoloring some of the radiator core. Perhaps a bit of light gray here and there on that part? In my humble opinion the spun disc wheels are the best option for a RR of this vintage. I encourage you to use them, regardless of how beautiful the wheels look. The last thing I would say is I know you are thinking gray and maroon. I believe these cars look best in a monotone or very subtle tu-tone (light and dark gray perhaps). Again, that is just my opinion.

As for the quality of your work? Absolutely phenomenal. I am in awe. The car looks like it is ready to run and I am not at all convinced you will not someday tell us "Fooled ya. It's a real RR I have in here."

Eric

[Cato]

Whew Eric! You correctly touch on nearly all the alternatives I've been mashing around in my head for the last year, planning this build which I started in Feb. And I thank you for actually having a dialog about your experiences and opinions.

Going in order-you're correct about the exhaust vs the condition of the rest of the car. My stated goal was to produce an older-restored (not over-restored) car which gets driven with some frequency but is cosmetically good with just a bit of patina. So yes, shiny paint, good (but not new) upholstery but a realistically used chassis. My references show many cosmetically perfect P II's with weathered, stained and leaky bottoms.

HOWEVER, along came the Model Motorcars aftermarket pieces. I was smitten by their jewel-like quality and their great fidelity to 1:1. And prepping them and assembling was quite a challenge for my limited skills so the thought took over, 'let them show'. Indeed I had painted all the chassis brake rods gray and gunmetal (3 sets) to make them visually 'go away' as part of the chassis-like originals. But with the MMC clevises attached to the rods, I decided to strip the paint from them and leave them brass and bronze. The bronze front axle is a beautiful piece of handiwork as are the delicate brake linkage on the fronts. I decided it would be a shame to cover them in paint and they loose the character.

Harry and Rick had encouraged me to cover the springs with gaiters. Same thing, I'm just in love with naked steel springs and rather than produce an accurate replica of the 1:1, I justified my madness by realizing these various bits of bronze, stainless and brass lend an artistic, hand-made quality to the model. Something that says 'crafted' rather than 'replicated'.

I laughed out loud at your comment about radiator leaks. Weeks ago I had created the grille / rad unit and wrapped it in bubble to preserve the beautiful chrome on this 30+ year old kit. I had to do many sub-assemblies like that, the steering box, front tray, the whole rear diff, now the front axle-because they all get installed at various times and some will have no access once in place. Can't get the steering box in when the engine's already in place for instance.

Anyway, I carefully and I hope subtly, stained the rad core at the hose connection and along the edges and at the overflow tubes. (photos will be posted) Just a few dribbles down from a loose clamp and a little boil-off after a long run. The engine will also show some heat and fluid dribbles but not to excess-in fact hardly noticed. The diff has a 90-weight stain at the drain plug, as will the gear box. Some brown grease at the pivot points is on the way. Weathering is my 'thing' and as in life, less is more. Forty+ years under 1:1's taught me what things look like in use. Honest-I did it long before you mentioned it but we obviously think alike.

No argument from me about the disc wheels. The color choices I finally decided on are maroon and a cream / tan with gray unders. Yes, these cars look extremely elegant in monotone. And Marvin swears the only way to build one is with the full Rollston fenders. Also very elegant.

But there's no defense for me; I managed to get old without maturity. The teen in me loves those wacky flying fenders and all those painted spokes (5 wheels-worth). Why a dull red gas tank? It just plain suits me. I am truly trying to avoid 'clown-car' bizarre colors and hope I can pull it all together.

Surely my version will NOT be displayed in the great hall at Crewe. It will be in a glass case, atop a mirror, most likely in my den. At the outset, I said this won't be everyone's cup of tea. But hopefully it will give me, family and friends joy to be around it.

Thanks Eric; your comments and compliments are most appreciated.

[Harry P.]

The teen in me loves those wacky flying fenders and all those painted spokes (5 wheels-worth). Why a dull red gas tank? It just plain suits me. I am truly trying to avoid 'clown-car' bizarre colors and hope I can pull it all together.

I haven't checked this thread in a while (been busy fixing the toilet! ).

Actually, I really did do some work in the master bath (new sink and faucet, but no toilet work)...

Anyhow... I like what I'm seeing. I do agree with Eric that the weathered exhaust system seems a little at odds with the pristine frame... I would expect to see weathering either on all the chassis components or on none... but that's just me. I'm certainly no RR expert. But as far as "personalizing" your Rolls with your own personal color scheme, that's completely "authentic"... if you were buying this car back in the day you would be specifying your own choices for colors, upholstery, etc.

[Cato]

Anyhow... I like what I'm seeing. I do agree with Eric that the weathered exhaust system seems a little at odds with the pristine frame... I would expect to see weathering either on all the chassis components or on none... but that's just me. I'm certainly no RR expert.

Nor am I. You're (and Eric) absolutely correct; and I'm fighting with myself about it every day.

I have in fact, toned down the contrast on the exhaust system with a neutral (gray / khaki) wash since these snaps were taken-to slightly minimize the contrast to the chassis. It's a true work in progress. When I look at something I did yesterday, I sometimes modify it today-like those brass rods I mentioned above.

And hey-ain't you the guy that kept telling me 'no one's gonna see this stuff'???

[sjordan2]

You can't go wrong by showing oil leaks on a vintage British car. I made a point of it in the 1/12 Bentley I built a couple of generations ago, and its oil pan is just plain nasty from the gasket down the fins. Thinking back on it, I would have mixed thinned paint with honey.

[Cato]

Work halted due to a strong cold that's got me down. Here's the front axle sub assembly, mostly prepped and ready for final finish. Then spring mounted and attachment to the chassis. Can't wait.

Here's the general arrangement of parts: At top is the tie rod and steering arm (see note below), to the left is the brake backing plate and at right the drum. Between is the brake rod and pivots to take the mechanical action of the foot brake to the shoes in the drums. I did not install shoes for working parts-much too delicate. In between is the .040" rod and bronze pivots, which are actually threaded for the 00-90 bolt seen here. The axle is below with the brake lever and clevis and arm at the end which connects to the lower link of the pivot rod:

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Here are the parts are next to the MMC sheet which shows the arrangement of their parts:

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The backing plate and steering arm finished in satin textured black:

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Those tiny pivots and .040" rod which fits into the nipples on each pivot:

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Note about steering arm; this part will get modified by cutting into two sections, rotating one 90 degrees, inserting stiff wire and plugging back together. That allows the MMC bronze steering lever to connect in scale fashion to the steering arm. And yes Harry, you do see this when done...

More work when I stop sneezing and can see nearly straight.......

[sjordan2]

Just checking in here as one of the hundreds of watchers who are pumping up the views on your build to an unrealistic level, according to comppwhatisizname, but this is superb. As your friend, I would only state that I agree with those who would encourage you to add the sleeves to your awesome springs. And I know you don't want to hear this, but you've spent so much with Model Motorcars already, I still think you should replace the fenders.

[Cato]

As your friend, I would only state that I agree with those who would encourage you to add the sleeves to your awesome springs. And I know you don't want to hear this, but you've spent so much with Model Motorcars already, I still think you should replace the fenders.

:lol: -Oi veh-more work???

For the record-as a great (and stupid) man once said 'I have not yet begun to spend'. I'll be spendin' on the wipers, door latches and engine bits plus I forgot what else, but it's all highly visible and scale-like stuff. So the fenders, at a buck seventy five, is the straw that broke the back. And I also denied Marvin's perfect spoke wheels because that's a deuce$$. I figure painting the Pochers 'saves' them.

Undeniably, the fenders and disc wheels make the car look great. But I'm pretty firmly in love with the flying fender look.

If I could build two of these, I would surely do what you, Eric and Rick advise on the second. But this is my only shot at one so I'm pretty much going with my heart. I do have changes of heart frequently with this but I think I'm settled in pretty well. If this were my 'term paper', I'd be thrilled with a 'C'.

If I were a wacky high roller in 1932, I'm trying to build what I would have ordered from the factory and coachbuilder then. Instead, I'm wacky and broke in 2014 -go figure...

Edited April 16, 2014 by Cato

[Pocherphile]

As ole Franky said...........I did it my way! So ole pal, do it your way..........

Its easy to say do this or that, but its your wallet paying f/those over priced do dads..............I agree, the fenders are insane for a set of resin replacements.........

I believe it was once said, a fool and his money are soon parted!

Do not get me wrong, if you just gotta have it, and MMC's does have it, then if the hobby funds can take the hit, knock it out of the ball park........but after many, and I mean many orders off to MMC's, I have learned that every little detail item does not make that much of a deal compaired to a well built and painted OBB.

I paid for this ad and I'm sticking too it!

Rick

[Cato]

......but after many, and I mean many orders off to MMC's, I have learned that every little detail item does not make that much of a deal compaired to a well built and painted OBB.

I can largely agree with that pal. But there's the child in me that loves to work with beautifully crafted parts and the highly visible ones have impact.

But the basic package has to be assembled square and true and with very clean finish techniques or they don't help anything. Time will tell in my case.

[Pocherphile]

I can largely agree with that pal. But there's the child in me that loves to work with beautifully crafted parts and the highly visible ones have impact.

But the basic package has to be assembled square and true and with very clean finish techniques or they don't help anything. Time will tell in my case.

Yea, but the child will learn once he spends more for the bling than the kit, does this a couple of times f/builds, you began to weed out all those little shinny thing-a-ma-bobs and look @ what will be seen and add that little attention getter that would other wise go un-noticed. Too much makes the subject too busy and you get swept away by it all..........have seen models @ contest that were just detailed down to the last nut and bolt get bested by a clean, just enough detail to hold one's attention, build of the same kit. But as you have pointed out, this is your party and as long as you are having fun, fun away friend. I have alot of room to talk about parts, have spent a bundle this week working on another one of my little projects.........but mine is not a kit, it is a 12 Ga. Tatical/Home Def.........Boys and their toys!

PS: still plucking away on the Fiat, got the stone sheild and hope to finish some of the details this Easter holiday, 3 days off of work, no Grands to pester me, and no honey to do list.............a good week-end to build and paint I hope.

Rick

Edited April 17, 2014 by Pocherphile

[Cato]

Hear you loud and clear bud. I will strive to keep the overall presentation from looking like the Bozo Mobile.

The problem is I don't have enough done to see the overall look. I'm working on small detailed areas to make the whole.

Even with all the photo reference, it's hard to pick a path that suits me.

I know the goal is to unify all the elements.

Short story; when in my 20's, I worked with a guy that built wooden model sailing ships (barks, cutters, fishers) -from plans, not kits. The craftsmanship and scale fidelity was astounding. He built in all the most unusual woods; cherry, pear etc. Nothing was painted but he did copper-plate bottoms (amazing). Dark, light, yellow-they were all there in perfect detail. Chains, ropes-you name it. But his 'trademark' was to always cant the masts about 10 degrees aft. Gave a dynamic look to the presentation in a big glass case.

So on the one hand, that's not 'accurate' but it lent an astounding air of craftsmanship elevating a 'model' to 'art'. And there were always tiny areas where you could see for instance that the one rail didn't quite match the other-but to me that showed the hand-made look even more.

I never forgot his work and what it taught me. In my crude way, I'm trying to emulate that feel.

[Eric Macleod]

I like the blend of accuracy and art that you are striving for with this one. I suspect you are at a point where you do not need us to tell you the workmanship is fantastic on this one. What is important now is your own enjoyment of the building process and the added pleasure of seeing the finished product. I have a 1926 Model T in 1:1 scale at home that has won literally every award a Model T can win. I have lots of trophies neatly stacked into boxes at home. That being said, the REAL trophy is the car.

I see your RR in the same light. If you build the car to your taste and it gives you satisfaction it becomes a trophy in its own right. I applaud your decision to leave all the little undercarriage brass do-dad's visible in their raw form. Some of these expensive and jewel like goodies would never otherwise be noticed by the untrained eye. Along that line, while I like the look of gaiters on a restored 1:1 car, I concur with your decision not to cover those excellent spring sets. On the other hand you could do as some owners of Cord 810-812's do, with one headlamp open and one closed. To wit, put gaiters and wheel discs on one side and leave them off on the other. Display the model with whichever side out suits your fancy. Crude your model is not. if it is art you are after, who says symmetrical is the only way to present it?

I am curious about the U bolts on your front axle. How do they attach? Is there another nut that will be attached on the other end or is just one sufficient?

Eric

[Cato]

I am curious about the U bolts on your front axle. How do they attach? Is there another nut that will be attached on the other end or is just one sufficient?

Eric

Again, I appreciate your views Eric.

The U bolts will attach in the conventional manner. A nut on each end of the U, trapping the axle and spring. They are temporarily like this for mock-up. I had to tweek each one to fit the drilled-hole spacing in the bronze axle. This reminds me which one goes in which axle position on final assembly. They are all fractionally different.

Interesting though about symmetry. Many aircraft modelers do that with folded wing on one side and open panels. I'll roll that around a bit. I was planning the hood up on one side...

A photo or two of your '26 T would be most welcomed here. There are a group of brass era and pre-war crazies here who love them. Harry is the leader.

[Eric Macleod]

I will see if I can make a photo work. Here you go.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg144/ericmac464/100_0098-Copy.jpg

See if that works.

One other attempt.

This photo shows both my Model T touring and in the background my unrestored Model T Sedan.

I am really enjoying your Rolls. Glad the thoughts about asymmetrical buildup is worth some consideration.

Eric

[Cato]

Your 'T's' are outstanding-the unrestored sedan is amazing-thanks for sharing.

[Eric Macleod]

I'm glad you enjoyed the photo, even though it was taken in the rain!

[Cato]

Had occasion today to contact Paul Koo who authored the tutorial CD on Pochers.

He explained the assembly sequence among the radiator / grille, engine and firewall.

Very kind and generous with his knowledge.

So the sequence is; the rad crossmember (sans rad), then engine, then firewall. Then grille goes in from bottom (easy with these workstand which allow you to flip upside-down safely and easily).

So some eyewash finally when mocking all the pieces in place. The general arrangement show the chassis level on the stands and a machinist's square to detect the grille angle. The grille in final assembly must be dead vertical and square side-to-side:

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Seen from above, the bubble in the level is centered and the grille shows a forward lean. The camera lens lends a bit of distortion:

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Seen from the side, the tilt is evident. BUT! When the brace rod from radiator to firewall is finally installed, the lean will be adjusted out to zero vertical:

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The grille sits even from side-to-side in the frame and the distance is 73mm (measured 5 times with a vertical triangle) from the grille face to the forward edges of the frame at the spring perches. Honest.

[Cato]

For you lovers of leaky, weepy Olde English iron, the heat and coolant-leaked rad core. With engine in, you'll barely see it:

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And just a pretty face. No squashed bugs on this like the GT-40...:

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[Harry P.]

I love that Pocher RR radiator and "flying lady" ornament. The nicest parts of the whole kit, IMO.