Anyone in the auto business know about Car Fax?

[Tom Geiger]

I've been looking for a new family car. I've looked at brand new cars, and all kinds of used cars. I have found a few higher end used car stores locally that have very nice cars at reasonable prices. They have buttons so you can view that vehicle's CarFax report, so the dealers aren't hiding anything.

I've found it interesting to read the reports, and how complete some are. Original new car delivery recorded, a lot of service records, resale to the second and third owner... some cars have had accidents with no information, others with detailed information... "front damage - car towed from scene" and another one said "minor damage - car driven from scene". One even mentioned that the car had been repossessed.

Some look down right suspicious... a 2006 Buick LaCrosse with 38,000 miles on it that I was interested in has a very short CarFax... First entry is "US Customs- Puerto Rico" Car exported from PR to USA." Next entry is the car being put into this dealer's inventory. I'm wondering why this car has no past history, I'm sure CarFax operates in Puerto Rico. Second, I'm curious why some entity would ship a car from there all the way to Philadelphia. I can imagine a car is more expensive in Puerto Rico or should've been exported to South America (which is really close!) where it would be worth a lot more. So I'm passing on this one!

The salesman I spoke to said a lot of the 2010-12 vehicles that he has with 5,000-10,000 miles were bought from the government. There was a row of brand new last year Crown Vic Interceptors with 4,000 miles on each that had never seen any kind of police use. Other cars they had were Dodge Avengers, Pontiac G6s and Chevy Malibus and Impalas. Some of these cars had no CarFax information, prior to them being sold at auction to the dealer. Others showed no ownership information or past history, but had random service records like for tire repairs and oil changes at Pep Boys.

Can anyone make heads or tails out of this?

The LaCrosse:

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=ECL_0&vin=2G4WC582161291783

One of the Crown Vic Interceptors:

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=ECL_0&vin=2FAHP71V59X135805

A 2009 Focus with less than 7k on it:

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=ECL_0&vin=1FAHP35NX9W224137

A 2010 Avenger with 4k on it, no history at all:

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=ECL_0&vin=1B3CC4FBXAN180338

I'd consider buying the Avenger if I could be assured that nothing's up with it... thoughts?

[Danno]

Garbage in, garbage out.

Very likely no one in PR reported data to the various databases CarFax accesses. Some motor vehicle departments/divisions don't report. Some insurance companies do, some don't. Some independent adjusters report, some don't. Perhaps some of the government vehicles were maintained by government shops that don't report. Etc., etc., etc. You get the idea. It's all about what data they get and what data is not available.

CarFax has no means of compelling anyone to report data to them. They rely on business arrangements and open public records provisions.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Car Fax is no different than any other online-accessible data base, in that the information on a vehicle isn't compiled automatically. Rather, it has to be entered into the system by fallible humans. If information seems sketchy, caveat emptor.

CarFax only has available information that is reported to them, and doesn't do diligent searches to ferret out the truth on any vehicle.

Essentially, what Danno said.

PS. I'd sure like to have a low-mileage police-package Crown Vic. I've driven a couple, and they're very competent cars. I had a wrecked donor, slated to give its engine and gearbox for a swap into my old Jag XJ-6. The donor got away when the owner of the storage lot died, somewhat inconsiderately, and his moron manager had everything ratty looking towed to the crusher (without contacting the vehicle owners).

Edited October 9, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Danno]

By the way, one thing CarFax can be very helpful with is identifying the state of a vehicle's title. The best way to get answers to your questions about a car's pedigree is to pull the title history. For example, with the CVPI, it may identify the particular agency or bureau that 'owned' the car. With the PR car, a title history may identify more about the car's history than CarFax can.

In my professional experience, CarFax is merely a road map to where the real information will be found.

I have no idea what's up with the Avenger, but I ran its VIN through NICB's VINcheck and it shows no history of being a total loss or a stolen vehicle. PA motor vehicles department will have the best info.

[Danno]

Here's another resource for you, Tom: NVTIS. This is a means of getting a nationwide title list for a vehicle. This is more precise than CarFax as far as identifying title numbers and title states throughout the history of a vehicle. It will cost a few bucks ($5 - $10) but it will tell you where the car's been . . .

http://www.vehiclehistory.gov/

[Mike Kucaba]

The car I drive now I used a Carfax report on and it verified everything the dealer said,and they backed it up when at 50,000 miles Pep boys said it needed total front end rebuild. Carfax covered it with a $1200.00 payment to PB. I bought the Carfax lemon guaranty for about $200.00.

[espo]

As has been pointed out , if something has happened to the vehicle and it's not reported then it will not show on the Carfax. I was in the retail car business for over 30 years before I retired. Trust me when I say that there is just as many people trading in cars that have some "tails to tell" as there are dealers to sell them. You might think about looking at late model (2-4 years models old) vehicles from a franchised dealer that has that manufacture's Certified Used Cars. They can very from returned rentals (look at these very hard before you buy) to off lease cars bought from the manufacture. The off lease cars are gone over far more than the usual used car and are usually the best buy even of they cost a little more.

[Tom Geiger]

Thanks for the input. I know that Carfax is only as good as the info they get fed, my concern was the absence of information on the supposed government cars prior to them hitting the auction. So I guess that's okay, and I'll check that national government database prior to buying anything. I will also ask the dealer to prove the cars came from the federal government as they have claimed. They say they will provide full disclosure on the cars and I have no reason to believe they are scamming, since they provide free Carfax as you see above, some of which show some sins a dishonest dealer would want to hide.

David, thanks for the opinion on the Certified Used Cars. Two years ago my daughter bought an off lease Fusion with 18,000 miles on it and it worked out well. One of the things I'm watching is that new car dealers are asking full Kelly Blue Book or greater for the 1-3 year old cars on their lots. And with current incentives on new cars, often a new car is a better value than that 1 or 2 year old car. So I'm weighing all options.

[2000-cvpi]

Tom, I have some insight into the dealer that you are looking at. The dealer most likely buys only from the US Government auctions. They are held all over the US and territories like PR. They also auction the cars off via gsaauctions.gov as well as other websites. Take a look at the site I listed and you can see that a government owned car in PR sells for considerably less than it would in the US.

I would strongly consider one of the Crown Vic's. The gas mileage would be lower than what you are probably used to, but they honestly would last forever. The government owned ones are the best without spotlights and mostly have full cloth and carpet in the interiors. Since you keep cars a long time, it would suit your needs well.

[mnwildpunk]

Not at my current job but I did work at a dealership that we reported everything about the cars we looked at. But now where I am we are not part of the (network) I guess you'd say and my service writer and boss don't report anything to carfax or othee services on what I do/find

[Tom Geiger]

I would strongly consider one of the Crown Vic's. The gas mileage would be lower than what you are probably used to, but they honestly would last forever. The government owned ones are the best without spotlights and mostly have full cloth and carpet in the interiors. Since you keep cars a long time, it would suit your needs well.

Thanks Corey- When my father died I took over his Crown Vic, figuring I'd drive it for a year. I drove it for six and put over 200,000 relatively trouble free miles on it. I then gave it to my bro-in-law who drove it a couple of years and passed it on to a buddy who needed a car. So I'd buy one of those in a heart beat, but my wife will be the primary driver of whatever we buy and she wants a smaller car. She is currently driving our 1999 Plymouth Breeze and thinks that's the right size for her.

My father once worked for a government contract, that happened to be on the same property as the US government motor pool and car auction. It was open to the public, so we'd go watch sometimes, and bought two cars over the years. The bulk of the auctions were cheap US cars like Plymouth Reliants, all at the lowest trim levels, then vans and trucks. The cars were very well maintained and every time they went into the shop the engine compartment got steam cleaned. There were other cars, such as DEA seizures, and once there was a gray market BMW coupe we thought we'd like, but the dealers bid it up.

[espo]

I'm wondering about your looking at Government Auctions. What type of cars are they offering and what were they used for ? We used to get 20 - 25 Chevrolet C20 pickups that were used during the California fire season. They were very basic models and were used by the crews that would take care of the camp grounds. They just needed a god detail and they were ready to sell with less than 10k miles. You could find a life time supply of trash bags under the seat. We once bought a '86 Buick T-Type which turned out to be a Grand National in everyway with no trim markings and a Chip in the computer. It was good for well over 100 mph in less time than you would think possible. Don't ask how I know. The car had like 20k miles showing and had never been titled. This would be like an undercover car where if some one ran the plate it would come back with a bogus Reg. and address info. Your right about some of the new car deals now. The manufactures have got to move a lot of iron right now. Wheal and deal on an in stock '14 and get rebates and or 0% apr.

[Mark]

One of the things I'm watching is that new car dealers are asking full Kelly Blue Book or greater for the 1-3 year old cars on their lots. And with current incentives on new cars, often a new car is a better value than that 1 or 2 year old car. So I'm weighing all options.

Most recent used cars are way overpriced. The dealer's rationale is usually "if this were a 2015 ---, it would cost $xx,xxx". But it isn't a 2015... it's a used 2010, 2012, or whatever. It's already got three, four, five years' use, and those were the best years. The updates to that car that took place in the intervening years aren't in the used car. The 2015 car might have a six-speed automatic where the 2010 has a five-speed, for example. If the used ones are selling anywhere close to the new ones, why bother with used? It's sitting on the lot because the previous owner no longer wants it. Just why might be perfectly legitimate (marriage, growing family) but still you are left to figure out why he/she no longer wants the car.

I'd avoid cars brought in from out of state...it's often done to "wash" the title of accident information, lemon-law buy backs, things like that. BMW got nailed a few years ago for moving and re-titling cars that were bought back as lemons. They shifted them to other states that don't have a lemon law, and by doing so they wipe out the resulting loss in value. I've got a sneaking suspicion that some of the multi-state mega-dealers do this also. One used car dealer around here mentions in their advertising that their guy is always in Florida at the auctions looking for cars. No used cars around here? I can't believe that any particular car is so much more popular in one area than another, so as to make it worth transporting hundreds or thousands of miles to resell it. I'm overly suspicious...my thinking is that it's being done because it wouldn't sell where it was due to accident(s), theft recovery, or lemon law buy-backs. All of that gets scrubbed from the title when the car crosses state lines.

I've said it from day one...Carfax might as well be put on a roll and sold alongside White Cloud and Charmin. I know people who sell cars, and cars they know to have been involved in accidents often have clean Carfax reports. Some insurance companies avoid providing information...after all, some of them provide "loss of value" coverage. It's not in their interest to tell the world that your car has been repaired when they might have to cover the resulting loss in value on it because of an accident. Carfax promised way more early on than they could ever deliver. Every time they come up with a new ad campaign, the disclaimers become longer and greater in number. Carfax makes money from both dealers and car buyers, more so from the former than the latter. You can't serve two masters...when push comes to shove, the dealers are buttering their bread.

Every time I've looked at newer used vehicles versus a new one, for me the price gap is usually way less than for most people. Most of the used cars on the lot were sold as new cars off the lot, as opposed to having been ordered by the buyer. Usually, they'll have a lot of garbage that I don't care about or don't even want. By ordering a new vehicle with what I want on it, the price gap between it and the typical used version of the same vehicle narrows considerably. I keep my vehicles forever. My daily drivers were all bought new. Since 1979, I've bought three. Right now I don't see anything I like enough to take on a car payment and higher insurance rates. I have thought about getting something before the next level of mandatory stupidity (rear-view cameras) comes in, though...

[Tom Geiger]

Thanks Mark! I agree with you. The one dealer I've been talking to said that the base model domestic cars he has (Malibu, Focus, Avenger and a bunch of low to no mile last year Vics) all came from the government motor pool. And talking with other dealers who have a ton of their own brand used vehicles, one to four years old, say they are lease returns. The local Hyundai store had literally dozens of 1-2 year old Elantras. One with 2,000 miles on it that he said was a repo. That makes sense since more and more of the general public cannot afford to buy new so they get those low dollar lease deals.

That worked out for my daughter, we found a Ford Fusion that had 20,000 miles on it that was leased for 18 months. The original owner.. or should I say driver.. took Ford up on an early lease termination on a two year lease and got a new car. The car had been leased from same dealer in town, and we bought it for about 50% of new value. I took the story with a grain of salt, but later my daughter ran into a lady in a store parking lot who said it was her car.

We still haven't pulled the trigger on getting a car. My Caravan has been sitting on the trans shop lot for two weeks now and they still haven't generated a quote. I'll be in Puerto Rico through next weekend, so I'll deal with it all then!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Tom Geiger

[Mark]

Would you be able to get Carfax info on a government vehicle? I always thought most of those are self-insured, like rental vehicles. I've heard good and bad about ex-rentals..."they don't change the oil, they change the filter and dump the drain oil back in", things like that. I rent a minivan every year for the NNL East weekend; lately all of them have had those little stickers all over that denote previous damage. I'd think it would be hard to find an ex-rental that hasn't had body work done, or doesn't have dents and scrapes all over.

[Tom Geiger]

Would you be able to get Carfax info on a government vehicle? I always thought most of those are self-insured, like rental vehicles.

Apparently the government motor pool doesn't report it's every move to any database. Most of these have blank histories prior to them being brought to a public auction. That's why I started this thread, to ask if that's normal and legit.

[Foxer]

Just a little info on my experience with carFax. I recently got a new vehicle and was trading in my year old Mini Countryman. The dealer said there was a carfax report saying the car was in an accident but no other info on the incident.and he wanted to knock $1000 off my trade in. The accident occured when I backed into a car that had pulled up behind me when backing out of a parking space ... no damage to either vehicle but the woman in other car (from neighboring NY state) said she HAD to report the accident "by law". So was a no damage bump and it ended up on car fax but with nothing indicating the seriousness of the incident. Carfax cost me $1000 for poor reporting.

[mnwildpunk]

Reasons like that is why I call it carfalse. I have seen the flip of the coin where you could tell the car was in an accident but carfax was clean

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just a little info on my experience with carFax. I recently got a new vehicle and was trading in my year old Mini Countryman. The dealer said there was a carfax report saying the car was in an accident but no other info on the incident.and he wanted to knock $1000 off my trade in. The accident occured when I backed into a car that had pulled up behind me when backing out of a parking space ... no damage to either vehicle but the woman in other car (from neighboring NY state) said she HAD to report the accident "by law". So was a no damage bump and it ended up on car fax but with nothing indicating the seriousness of the incident. Carfax cost me $1000 for poor reporting.

Pity the dealer you were doing business with didn't have anyone competent to look at a vehicle and tell if it had ever had a significant hit. Any decent body-shop estimator should be able to do it. I would have demanded same, and gone elsewhere if they didn't.

[Tom Geiger]

Just a little info on my experience with carFax. I recently got a new vehicle and was trading in my year old Mini Countryman. The dealer said there was a carfax report saying the car was in an accident but no other info on the incident.and he wanted to knock $1000 off my trade in. The accident occured when I backed into a car that had pulled up behind me when backing out of a parking space ... no damage to either vehicle but the woman in other car (from neighboring NY state) said she HAD to report the accident "by law". So was a no damage bump and it ended up on car fax but with nothing indicating the seriousness of the incident. Carfax cost me $1000 for poor reporting.

Pity the dealer you were doing business with didn't have anyone competent to look at a vehicle and tell if it had ever had a significant hit. Any decent body-shop estimator should be able to do it. I would have demanded same, and gone elsewhere if they didn't.

From the dealer's angle, people are so conditioned to look at and trust the Carfax that he will have issues trying to sell that car.

As I'm looking for a car and have read more and more Carfax reports, I see it all depends on who was doing the reporting and that people are getting better at it. Where I see ones that just say "accident reported", now I'm reading ones with detail like "right front hit, vehicle driven from scene". where you know it was just a fender bender.