clear coat madness

[ferrari87]

Hey guys, I'm in need of some advice. My predominant modelling background is WWII armor. There after painting the tank of our choice, it was decals and then a coat of flat clear. My questions are as follows:

In terms of painting, I lay down the base coat of my choice, I predominantly use enamels- so when using an enamel, let's say Model Master Gloss Red, is it required to use a clear coat? Do I want to use a clear coat before placing any decals, then use something like Future Floor polish to seal the decals?

Can I use a lacquer clear (for instance, Model Master Ultra Gloss Lacquer Clear) over enamels? If so, how soon -or late- after should I apply this over enamels?

Lastly, when using a paint that will or unexpectedly dries flat, will using a gloss clear coat bring me the shiny result I am looking for?

Thank you for your time and i greatly appreciate the help!

[ferrari87]

Thought of one more, after applying the first clear coat, how long do I wait to apply the second clear coat?

[CJ1971]

G'day mate... I can't speak for everyone as we all have our different types of paint we like using & different techniques. Some people never clear-coat, most do. Some never polish out final paint & some do. It's all a mixed bag really... But to answer your questions... As far & as best I can...

Enamels... They're ok for finer detailing, such as smaller parts/interior etc... For bodies & larger parts I'd go with lacquers or Acrylics. They dry much faster & are less tempremental than enamels... Enamels take forever to dry, especially if you paint on bad weather days... Too hot or too cold... That's something to think about. As for enamels that ARE gloss... No, you don't need to clear coat on top, but can if you so desire. Most enamels are labelled gloss/semi-gloss/flat/Matt. With enamel clear, from past experience, they tend to yellow over time & will ruin your once nice paint job, especially if you had decals underneath it.

As for sealing decals with polishing... I wouldn't. I've never used this Future stuff before, mainly because it's not available in Australia & because there are far better alternatives from the 1:1 Automotive range, when it comes to polishing/waxing products. ? Seal your decals under clear coating ?

Do not use Lacquer over enamel... Lacquer paint is "hotter" than enamel & will craze your enamel coat/s.

The only paints that will dry flat are paints labelled as such... Flat or Matt paint. The only exception being Auto 1:1 2 pack paints. ( base coats ) like touch-up spray cans ( Dupilcolour etc ) they will require a gloss clear coat for shiny results.

Edited November 16, 2014 by CJ1971

[StevenGuthmiller]

G'day mate... I can't speak for everyone as we all have our different types of paint we like using & different techniques. Some people never clear-coat, most do. Some never polish out final paint & some do. It's all a mixed bag really... But to answer your questions... As far & as best I can...

Enamels... They're ok for finer detailing, such as smaller parts/interior etc... For bodies & larger parts I'd go with lacquers or Acrylics. They dry much faster & are less tempremental than enamels... Enamels take forever to dry, especially if you paint on bad weather days... Too hot or too cold... That's something to think about. As for enamels that ARE gloss... No, you don't need to clear coat on top, but can if you so desire. Most enamels are labelled gloss/semi-gloss/flat/Matt. With enamel clear, from past experience, they tend to yellow over time & will ruin your once nice paint job, especially if you had decals underneath it.

As for sealing decals with polishing... I wouldn't. I've never used this Future stuff before, mainly because it's not available in Australia & because there are far better alternatives from the 1:1 Automotive range, when it comes to polishing/waxing products. Seal your decals under clear coating

Do not use Lacquer over enamel... Lacquer paint is "hotter" than enamel & will craze your enamel coat/s.

The only paints that will dry flat are paints labelled as such... Flat or Matt paint. The only exception being Auto 1:1 2 pack paints. ( base coats ) like touch-up spray cans ( Dupilcolour etc ) they will require a gloss clear coat for shiny results.

Very nice job Cliff!! I agree with almost everything you said! The only thing I will disagree with is using Lacquer over enamel. Under most circumstances, that is correct. But Testors Lacquer clear coats are very mild & will not harm enamels. I use them over all sorts of paints. But, as you said, I personally wouldn't use enamels for bodies anyway. I used to years ago, but I got tired of putting them back in the box for 3 months before they would cure well enough for polishing etc. And absolutely, avoid clear enamel! It's amazing how yellow it turns over time. A white body would turn urine yellow within weeks!! Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

Thought of one more, after applying the first clear coat, how long do I wait to apply the second clear coat?

I would wait at least a couple of days, preferably a week before re-applying lacquer clear coat. I've had some issues very recently with cracking clear coats, at least with the Testors "Wet Look Clear". I used to wait only 24 hours, but with the problems I've had lately, I figure it's better to wait. Steve

[om617]

Lastly, when using a paint that will or unexpectedly dries flat, will using a gloss clear coat bring me the shiny result I am looking for?

Most metallic base will dry flat no matter what. Other paints usually say in the description if it`s flat. Also some clear paint does dry flat,but again,it say so on the description. I cant give advice on other then my own experience,this also from only using Tamiya so far. All the metallics dry flat,so you will have to give it a coat of gloss clear (It`s called TS13). Most times it only require one coat of clear to shine real nice,but i have done 2 and even 3 coats.

I wait 30mins between each coat of paint using the Tamiya rattle cans,this goes for clear as well. Never had any problems with cracs of such.

[ferrari87]

I really appreciate the help gentlemen! Coming to cars has been a completely new experience. I never had to model a nice paint job prior to this as tanks were always banged up anyway, so a bad paint job was actually a good thing. I found myself getting good and a bad paint job...I hope that wasn't just me actually being bad at applying paint, but there's a certain technique to making a tank look like the paint was applied in the field like the Germans were forced to do with their camo schemes later in the war.

Anyway, so with the lacquer/enamel/acrylic issue settled (I'll probably go with using Tamiya Sprays from now on and decant them), so let's use an example, I'm working on a car, I've laid down primer- Tamiya Fine Surface Primer White. Then I've done two mist coats of red, lets say its Tamiya TS-86. I've wetsanded any imperfections between the primer and the two mist coats. Next I lay down two wet coats. 1. How long do I wait between wet coats with a lacquer paint? 2. Why wetsand? Is it only for imperfections in the paint, like lint or dust? Let's say I have to wetsand a two small imperfections out, lets say its a small run and a few dust pieces. What's the best way to take out the paint run and dust? a wetsand of 3400/3600? So assuming we've fixed these issues, what's the next step? a lacquer clear coat? Or do I just go to Novus 1 and 2? Do I clear after polish/wax? And for those builds that have decals, do you polish/wax then place decals?

I need a step by step guide...

I genuinely appreciate the help and guidance, I'm hoping the switch from armor to cars goes well!

[CJ1971]

Seems like you actually have a good sense of what's needed so far ?? I've not used Testors 1 coat clear so I can't comment on that particular paint. As for Tamiya... They're great! Decanted even better, just because it allows you the freedom to control the pressure & amount that you want to spray ??

When you get to the 2 full wet coat stages you'd only need 10-15mins between coats, depending on the weather ? Let it sit for a good 24hrs then wet sand the whole body/parts with 3600-4000 grit cloth. Use a little dishwashing liquid, it'll help when it comes time to wash of all the impurities ( warm water/toothbrush -gently ) After a good dry, add your decals & again let them dry at least another 24hrs to allow ALL the moisture to seperate from underneath them completely. When ready hit the clear coats... Very low pressure 10-12psi... Nice & close ?? Again, 15-20mins between coats. Repeat the wet sanding process, giving the clear at least 24-48hrs to gas right out ( again depending on the weather/air temperature ?? )

Wet sand with 4-6-8000- 12000 if you really want to ? Then polish/wax. Never wax before clear/decals... The decals nor paint will stick to a surface that's been polished - particularly waxed surfaces!

Always remember too... While this process works in general, it's always a case of what works for you & your style/equipment & paint etc... Trial & error is a learning curve... ???

Hope this helps mate ? Cheers

[ferrari87]

CJ, you have made my day. Thank you sir. I think I've just spent so much time reading threads and googling, that I've come across many different techniques like you mentioned that I've got them all mixed up in my head. That right there helps me straighten out a lot! Particularly how decals fit into the picture.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Sounds to me like you don't need a whole lot of coaching Justin. I'd say you have a pretty good handle on things. The manufacturer of the Lacquer I use says to re-coat after 10-15 minutes. Personally, I give it 1/2 hour to an hour to give it ample time to "gas out", although I can't speak to Tamiya paints. I've never used them. As far as wet sanding goes, some guys sand between every coat regardless. I only sand when i need to. As long as my color coats are relatively smooth, why mess with it. Once I start with clear coats, I rarely worry about a dust speck here & there. They can be polished out at the end. Steve

[ferrari87]

Thanks Steve. Youtube has been a big help as well. I'm just trying to avoid orange peel and the crazing you guys mentioned. I greatly appreciate you guys helping me out, I know from the AFV side of life, beginner questions seem to come over and over again and we never liked the guy who signed up and then posted something that could have been easily searched for on the internet. Thanks for helping me organize the painting process. I look forward to displaying a fantastic finish on my DBS that should arrive Monday morning.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Thanks Steve. Youtube has been a big help as well. I'm just trying to avoid orange peel and the crazing you guys mentioned. I greatly appreciate you guys helping me out, I know from the AFV side of life, beginner questions seem to come over and over again and we never liked the guy who signed up and then posted something that could have been easily searched for on the internet. Thanks for helping me organize the painting process. I look forward to displaying a fantastic finish on my DBS that should arrive Monday morning.

That's what these forums are all about Justin. Or at least they should be! There are always people here more than willing to do the best they can to help. Steve

[Snake45]

Anyone have any experience with Krylon Fusion Gloss Clear? Saw a nice model elsewhere that had been finished with it so bought a can yesterday at Walmart. Ran some quick tests--looks like it attacked bare plastic (I expected that) and wasn't especially glossy over paint. Looks like it will need polishing. Anyone use it?

[CJ1971]

CJ, you have made my day. Thank you sir. I think I've just spent so much time reading threads and googling, that I've come across many different techniques like you mentioned that I've got them all mixed up in my head. That right there helps me straighten out a lot! Particularly how decals fit into the picture.

Not a problem at all Justin, you're more than welcome ?? Most are here to help & give advice when asked ?

You'll love that AM DBS kit... It's a ripper! I built 1 a few years ago when it was released & have another, with the full PE Aber detailing kit which is superb! The metal-transfers ( for badges/engine call-out ) are quite finicky... Patience & care should be taken when applying them ?? & I hope to see it in the WIP section soon ??

Cheers Cliff

Edited November 17, 2014 by CJ1971

[CJ1971]

Thanks Steve. Youtube has been a big help as well. I'm just trying to avoid orange peel and the crazing you guys mentioned. I greatly appreciate you guys helping me out, I know from the AFV side of life, beginner questions seem to come over and over again and we never liked the guy who signed up and then posted something that could have been easily searched for on the internet. Thanks for helping me organize the painting process. I look forward to displaying a fantastic finish on my DBS that should arrive Monday morning.

Justin... There's no avoiding orange peel mate. You can lay down the smoothest of smooth paint jobs but there will always be some level of orange peel that would need to be polished out, for that truly smooth appearance... ?? All that's needed is time, effort & patience ??

[ferrari87]

CJ, I'm really excited to start the DBS. I have a detail PE set from Hobby Easy, I believe its from Studio 27. Anyway, it looks to be a challenge so patience will be required. I'm wrapping up my R-33 build this week so look for that in Under Glass.

I didnt realize that Tamiya sold the kit with Aber PE until I had bought the detail kit from Hobby Easy but after some comparison, they are quite similar. The brakes can be done in pure PE or the stock brakes can have PE added, the front grille is PE and the metal transfers for the badges and such are there so the seperate kit looks good. I hope to see any input and criticism you guys have, no worries man- criticsm makes me a better modeler.

[ferrari87]

That's what these forums are all about Justin. Or at least they should be! There are always people here more than willing to do the best they can to help. Steve

Steve, I'm glad to have found them. I used to be part of a very tight group when I did armor and having the support and criticsm of experienced hobbyists. Look for my R-33, DBS, and future Formula One builds!

[CJ1971]

CJ, I'm really excited to start the DBS. I have a detail PE set from Hobby Easy, I believe its from Studio 27. Anyway, it looks to be a challenge so patience will be required. I'm wrapping up my R-33 build this week so look for that in Under Glass.

I didnt realize that Tamiya sold the kit with Aber PE until I had bought the detail kit from Hobby Easy but after some comparison, they are quite similar. The brakes can be done in pure PE or the stock brakes can have PE added, the front grille is PE and the metal transfers for the badges and such are there so the seperate kit looks good. I hope to see any input and criticism you guys have, no worries man- criticsm makes me a better modeler.

I'm happy for Ya mate! Hope it all goes to plan, it's a beautiful car & a great representation by Tamiya of it... The semi-detailed engine could've been better, but it is what it is & it's not a huge issue to me. Having being able to build it trumps not having 1 to build ?? Yeh I know there are quite a few after-market companies offering PE for this kit & I haven't actually seen Studio 27s version because I bought the DBS +Aber PE at a great price, especially seeing what came in it! Lots of extra detailing can be had & those metal discs/calipers... Just ?? WOW! The only thing I really didn't like about the kit, as with most kits, especially Fujimi, were the tyres... No sidewalk detail & much too thick/big in the DBS's wheel housing ? I used some spare-parts tyres I had, which made a big difference ?

If you plan it out ... Colour schemes/interior etc... It'll go a long way to the end result ??

As for criticism... I prefer advice... When & if you need it mate ?? Most of us can handle it either way but there are some that really just need a box of tissues ?? Lol

Cheers Cliff.. I'll be sure to check out your GTR ?

[espo]

Justin, It seems as though you have gotten some additional ideas for painting, I have sure learned some new tricks. You had asked about apply decals, and to share what has worked for myself, the main thing that I have found to work the best is to have as smooth as possible surface when applying. You might try a light application of gloss clear in the area where the decal is to be applied. After the surface is dry you can apply the decal. After it is completely dry you can put the final gloss or flat clear coats. One thing you want to avoid is applying over any type of "orange peal" or surface that's not as smooth as possible.

[ferrari87]

I'm happy for Ya mate! Hope it all goes to plan, it's a beautiful car & a great representation by Tamiya of it... The semi-detailed engine could've been better, but it is what it is & it's not a huge issue to me. Having being able to build it trumps not having 1 to build Yeh I know there are quite a few after-market companies offering PE for this kit & I haven't actually seen Studio 27s version because I bought the DBS +Aber PE at a great price, especially seeing what came in it! Lots of extra detailing can be had & those metal discs/calipers... Just WOW! The only thing I really didn't like about the kit, as with most kits, especially Fujimi, were the tyres... No sidewalk detail & much too thick/big in the DBS's wheel housing I used some spare-parts tyres I had, which made a big difference

If you plan it out ... Colour schemes/interior etc... It'll go a long way to the end result

As for criticism... I prefer advice... When & if you need it mate Most of us can handle it either way but there are some that really just need a box of tissues Lol

Cheers Cliff.. I'll be sure to check out your GTR

The detail set is from Hobby Design. It has the PE to make the brake rotors from something like 6 different pieces. That will be a challenge in itself! The grill as well looks like a bugger to assemble. Anyway, I'm going to start the build log shortly, I hope to hear your advice there as the build progresses!

[ferrari87]

Justin, It seems as though you have gotten some additional ideas for painting, I have sure learned some new tricks. You had asked about apply decals, and to share what has worked for myself, the main thing that I have found to work the best is to have as smooth as possible surface when applying. You might try a light application of gloss clear in the area where the decal is to be applied. After the surface is dry you can apply the decal. After it is completely dry you can put the final gloss or flat clear coats. One thing you want to avoid is applying over any type of "orange peal" or surface that's not as smooth as possible.

Thanks for the tip! I've got my R-33 as a test bed so she'll recieve the bulk of the abuse when it comes to trying my hand at cars. I remember my first AFV, a Dragon Model Panzer IV Ausf G....it looked terrible next to my later tanks.

[MitchP]

Hi all:

I have painted only four bodies before, all from testor's One Coat metallics. I use Tamiya fine primer and have never had issues. I only use spray can paint as I don't have the budget for everything involved with air brush, hydrator, etc. There have been a few issues with dust which I've lightly wet sanded out based on instructions here.

I'm not a perfectionist and don't enter shows. This is my hobby to ease pain from a disability. Only recently have I tried painting with Tamiya as the topcoat. I used almost the same technique as for primer: three mist coats checking for dust or imperfections and correcting them. The primered body gets wiped with a tack cloth or rubbing alcohol using dust free painting gloves. The color coats get three mist coats 15-20 mins. apart to allow for a tackiness to develop and then a final coats are applied. Those coats I fear the most as I have had runs and what you might call "fisheye bubbles" develop which require up to 3-4 days drying time so I can sand them out and re-shoot the area carefully. Smaller dust particles might get 3-4000 wet sanding to fix but if I've not used 2-3 heavy coats I'm afraid it might get to the primered area.

I just used my first can of Tamiya lacquer to spray a funny car body and although it looks nice, I didn't go heavy on the one coat after misting for fear of messing it up. It's dried and has been for two days. I'm not going back to using Future, and I understand I now must wait up to 4 days before applying clear. I will be using Tamiya to be consistent with all paint products. If I had applied the clear within 20 minutes of the last coat, I believe I could have shot 2 coats right away. This is important as I have 6 finished builds waiting to paint, along with 2 in WIP! Is it possible to re-dust it now and try to add another coat of the same Tamiya base?

If not, what purpose would adding a clear coat be?

If someone here could examine my techniques and point out where I could improve, I would appreciate it. As you might tell, I love detailing drag race cars but HATE to paint!

[bobthehobbyguy]

The bubbles are propellent trapped in the paint. I've had problems with that if I've had the can too close to the body when using Tamiya paint. Shooting too close is also the cause of the runs and sags.

Here is a link with tamiya recommendations for using their paint.

http://www.tamiya.com/english/scale/beginner2/2.htm

[bobthehobbyguy]

Here is anotyer link from tymiya

http://www.tamiyausa.com/articles/painting-with-tamiya-synthetic-lacquers-35?category_id=8#.VSWMrGZlBoM

[MitchP]

Here is anotyer link from tymiya

http://www.tamiyausa.com/articles/painting-with-tamiya-synthetic-lacquers-35?category_id=8#.VSWMrGZlBoM

Bob: this is succinct and prolly the best explanation of EVERYTHING I've been doing wrong! The one coat lacquer from Testors creates that show car look, but this current piece is basically the Matco Tools Nationals Avenger kit with some bizarre resin pro mod pieces like a bigger blower, hat, full fuel system, Pro Tech pulleys, etc. I had to hack the heck out of the interior tinwork to accommodate for the blower! The original kit was the McEwen '57 Chevy flopper; am73grand bailed me out when the original body paint turned out really bad. Turns out the Avenger body and windshield required no mods to fit my overactive detailing imagination!

I do have several questions not addressed by the links and perhaps you might know. First, I now realize I could have added multiple additional coats for a deeper finish had I followed the proper steps. As it is, the finish is clean from imperfections like dust and lint. Since it's been about 48 hours since the last coat, is it too late to add an additional coat or two now that I know the correct steps?

From what I've read so far, non-contest people like me can benefit from clear coating. However, I haven't found instructions for applying multiple coats of or wait time in between applications of Tamiya TS-13, their clear coat. This the one I want to use because of the amount of decaled surface area on the body. Have you any experience with canned clears of the lacquer variety?

You have no idea how much help you've been pointing me in these directions. P.S., I hope your weather is better than here on the East side except I've heard it's a bit dry though.

Mitch