Trying to sort out classic kit quality

[ICMF]

I'm primarily an aircraft guy, but I've been bitten by the auto bug lately. I've been eyeing a bunch of vintage classics, but I really don't know what's worth buying, and what's best left on the shelf. So could anybody help me out and give me a rough run-down on what's decent?

I'm thinking, particularly, in terms of European cars - Mercs, Jags, Rollers, Bugattis and the like. Apparently Jo-Han's Mercedes 500Ks are nice, but how do they compare with the Italeri or Monogram 540K kits? Lindberg's SSK? And what's the better Rolls: Monogram or Italeri? Are the Italeri Bugatti Royale/Napoleon or Lindberg Victoria worth building? Are the Minicraft 1/16 kits any good, or would I be better off with, say, the 1/24 SSK, or MG-TC (okay, so it's not pre-war... but it looks it )

And, for that matter, when reviewers say a kit like the Jo-Han Mercs are nice... is that nice, given the fact that they're 40 year old toolings, or just nice full stop, and they wouldn't feel out of place among more modern Revellogram releases (since I'm assuming they're not going to be Tamiya quality)?

And if all of that is too big to even begin to answer, are there any good review sites/webzines for model cars, that will have sprue shots or in box reviews of vintage cars?

I realize this is a pretty big and involved question, so I'd appreciate any input at all. I'm not particularly set on particular body styles, model years or the like, so I guess basically it boils down to, what kits are worth searching out for an accurate, reasonably detailed, straightforward, enjoyable pre-war build?

[Harry P.]

The JoHan and Monogram Mercedes, Deusenbergs, Rolls, etc. from the 60s/70s are great kits. They'd easily stand up to the best of today's kits... and then some.

[george 53]

Ice,you sure picked a heckova genre to build.I cant really say how the old JoHan kits build stock,cause I've never built em that way.I ussually rod them out. they rod pretty neat theyre pretty well detailed,so they probably build up stock pretty well. About the only thing I can see as a probable problem is their cost. If you can find em.E-Bay occasionally has them.The Lindberg Buggati Royale isn't in the league of the JoHan kits, but it does build up nice.I know this is kinda off subject,But like I said, they make nice Rods!

[FactoryStock54]

The old 1/25 Jo-Han 34-35 Mercedes and 31 Cadillac kits were the Tamiya kits of their day and still stand out as some of the best-engineered car kits of all time. The 1/24 Monogram classics are also top-notch, somewhat easier than the Jo-Han kits if not quite as intricately detailed. Also, don't overlook some of the old 1/25 MPC classics!

Over time (and depending on which issue of the kit you obtain) some of the plastic from these old kits has a tendency to become brittle and some of the more delicate detail parts are prone to breakage. Jo-Han milked its molds for all they were worth so some later issues of their kits had very distorted and mal-formed parts; best policy is to look for earlier Trophy Series issues (usually molded in box-art colors) as opposed to the later all-white (or sometimes totally-weird off-the-wall color) plastic. In general I find it advisable to obtain multiple copies just in case!

Edited May 5, 2008 by FactoryStock54

[lordairgtar]

The old MPC 1928 Lincoln is nice and well detailed. The recent AMT/RC2/Ertl release is pretty shop worn with flash and all, but a little care with cleaning up the pieces will still turn into a nice model. The engine is chrome, but that is easily removed to be painted in stock colors. The AMT (former MPC) 32 Chrysler is nice too, as this was from the same era as the Lincoln. If you can find the 32 Chevy kit from AMT (former MPC), that's nice too. Revell's recent 1940 Ford is very nice. The JoHan classic cars were state of the art back when they were first made, and can hold their own today. AMT's 1941 Plymouth is a nice car too. Heller has some European Classics, like the Bentley Blower, a Renault Vivistella PG7, a 1950 Talbot-Lago Record (I know, 50s cars, but still nice), Delage D.8, Talbot-Lago Grand Prix racer. Monogram has a nice Cord.

Edited May 5, 2008 by lordairgtar

[Biscuitbuilder]

I'm primarily an aircraft guy, but I've been bitten by the auto bug lately. I've been eyeing a bunch of vintage classics, but I really don't know what's worth buying, and what's best left on the shelf. So could anybody help me out and give me a rough run-down on what's decent?

I'm thinking, particularly, in terms of European cars - Mercs, Jags, Rollers, Bugattis and the like. Apparently Jo-Han's Mercedes 500Ks are nice, but how do they compare with the Italeri or Monogram 540K kits? Lindberg's SSK? And what's the better Rolls: Monogram or Italeri? Are the Italeri Bugatti Royale/Napoleon or Lindberg Victoria worth building? Are the Minicraft 1/16 kits any good, or would I be better off with, say, the 1/24 SSK, or MG-TC (okay, so it's not pre-war... but it looks it )

And, for that matter, when reviewers say a kit like the Jo-Han Mercs are nice... is that nice, given the fact that they're 40 year old toolings, or just nice full stop, and they wouldn't feel out of place among more modern Revellogram releases (since I'm assuming they're not going to be Tamiya quality)?

And if all of that is too big to even begin to answer, are there any good review sites/webzines for model cars, that will have sprue shots or in box reviews of vintage cars?

I realize this is a pretty big and involved question, so I'd appreciate any input at all. I'm not particularly set on particular body styles, model years or the like, so I guess basically it boils down to, what kits are worth searching out for an accurate, reasonably detailed, straightforward, enjoyable pre-war build?

ICMF,

Pretty subjective question, and even more subjective answers most likely. By "quality" I prefer to think of how well the kit was produced, once the tooling was cut, as opposed to the level of perfection of the model kit itself, tooling wise. You will run across, in this genre' almost the entire gamut of the development of model car kit tooling, from the early 60's through the middle 1980's.

From MPC (AMT/Ertl), JoHan, Monogram (now Revell-Monogram), Italeri or Heller, there is not truly a badly done Classic Era model kit. Now, some may well be a bit outdated in the way they were engineered (Monogram's kits tended to have rather large locating lugs to capture locating pins, for example), or have limitations as to how the particularl company had to tool them (Italeri didn't have the capability of making one-piece body shells -- which require "slide core" mold technology -- for example). But these aren't truly "dings", they just mean that it takes a different approach sometimes.

Coming from the aircraft side of things, I suspect you are well-versed in the multitude of different kits of the same plane, by different manufacturers, each with its own idiosyncracies. In the model car world, however, duplicates of the subject aren't all that common (unless we are talking stuff like Camaro's, Mustangs, or Corvettes, for example). Rather, if you are looking at a classic car kit from one mfr, most likely that is the only kit done of that subject, and even more likely is that it will never be done by anyone else.

However, almost without exception, companies like MPC, Monogram, and such "pulled out all the stops" to make their Classic Car model kits the best they could do at the time they did them. There will be anomalies, for sure, but nothing that a competent modeler can't overcome, and with some patience and perseverance, masterpieces are pretty easy to come up with.

BTW, Lindberg's Bugatti Royale Convertible Victoria is a sleeper of a kit--it's far, far better than the brand name would suggest, but of course, it's also 40-some year old tooling, and a lot of things have been learned in the meantime. Well built though, it need not hang its head in the presence of kits from any other manufacturer.

Biscuitbuilder

[Mr. Can Am Garage]

Due to recent interest in the classic cars, I have at least one of all of the kits mentioned by you.

I haven't built any of them yet but for the most part, the bodys are ready for paint.

Now I have built Johan's '31 Cadillac V-16 Sport Phaeton which is a VERY nice kit.

Also built is Monogram's Packard Boattail Speedster. LOVE it!

Recently finished is Monogram's '34 Duesenberg SJ Torpedo Phaeton by Weymann. Pretty car but you can tell that the Duesenberg was Monogram's first go at kitting a classic car. They learned from it and as such, the Packard is a much easier kit to build.

If you require, I can post pics. of my three completed classics.

[Phil Patterson]

One sleeper of a kit you may have overlooked is the Airfix or MPC 1904 Darracq. A simple kit, and marketed as 1/32nd when it's really 1/24th. However, it's very accurate from all indications and only suffers from some flash and simplicity issues mainly due to the fact it was originally tooled in the 1950s. Still reasonably priced though, either in the Airfix bagged versions or the 70s MPC kits.

Terry Jessee built one some time ago for SAE, if you've got the back issue.

You'll have to do the brass plating yourself with either Al-Clad or brass colored paint, but you'll have a hard time finding a 1/24th-25th scale kit of a car older than this one!

[FactoryStock54]

Just a quick footnote to what some of the other guys have said, and an additional word of encouragement;

Experience as an aircraft modeler is indispensable when it comes to some of the older classic car kits, especially those with sectional bodies. Techniques for joining, filling and sanding are very similar to those used on planes, and many of the same tools can carry over (Flex-i-Files, seam scrapers etc). Learning how to build aircraft models properly ultimately made me a much better car modeler!

[robertw]

Maybe the classics are becoming the 'in' models to build but I've also developed an interest in building some of these road mammoths of a bi-gone era and I've picked up several over the last few months.

The Monogram kits seem to have the best reputation and best variety and I don't think you'll be disappointed in any of them. They may not be up to present day Tamiya quality but remember most came out of the 1960's & '70's. Considering their age they are very nicely detailed.

I've built the Italeri '33 Chrysler and have a couple more from this line to build. They date from the '80's but will be a little more difficult to build with multipart bodies, in some cases not separate sidewalls and a fit that can sometimes be tricky. In the end careful and slow construction techniques will create a model on par with the Monogram models.

The only Jo-Han kit I've picked up so far is the MB 500K. It's 1/25 compared to the standard 1/24 of most of the others. While mine had a little more flash then normal it was easily cleaned and again the kit is very nicely detailed.

The nice thing about all these kits is that they are big enough to allow fat fingered modellers the opportunity to add what ever detail they think they can. I just wish there were some PE produced for them. It can also be difficult to find reference material on some of them.

My recommendation is to grab anyone of these classics and have fun. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the results.

robw

[LDO]

Like others have said; they may not measure up to a modern Tamiya kit, but some are pretty close. Monogram's Packard boattail speedster is very nice. It goes together with no real problems. Their Duesenbergs are nice, too.

Jo-Han's Merecedes-Benz kits are very nice. Their shortcomings are very minor; shallow door panel detail and the chrome trim on the trunk lid doesn't have any locating pins. You gotta be careful when you put it on. I really like these kits. I built the coupe while deployed to Afghanistan. Paint is Tamiya clear red over grey primer.

Heller...oh boy. I love their Delehaye 135. It's a beautiful car, BUT, you really have to love the car to build the model. The kit engineering is poorly thought out. The front fenders are skirted and the skirt stands out slightly. The skirt is in two pieces. I just used sheet plastic for the entire raised skirt:

There should be a peak running down the center of the front fenders, but it isn't there. I added it by gluing a piece of .010" brass wire down the center and fairing it in. The photo is of poor quality so I can't really show that. To be fair, those two things may not bother everyone. BTW the body is by Chapron. I read a post from a guy trying to make it look like a Figoni & Falaschi, but that's just not happening.

Heller's M-B 540k is garbage. Its body is split down the center, as in left and right halves.

Italeri's Bugatti Royales are nice.

One really cool thing about the pre-war classics is that no matter who the coachbuilder was, the basic shapes were pretty similar. Biscuitbuiler told me about making a Duesenberg Judd coupe out of the Duesenberg roadster with a modified roof from Monogram's 1930 Ford coupe. Somewhere around here I've got a heavily modified '37 Ford body for a Duesenberg Mudd coupe project.

Edited May 8, 2008 by LDO

[ICMF]

Thanks for the info, all. Very helpful.

Over time (and depending on which issue of the kit you obtain) some of the plastic from these old kits has a tendency to become brittle and some of the more delicate detail parts are prone to breakage. Jo-Han milked its molds for all they were worth so some later issues of their kits had very distorted and mal-formed parts; best policy is to look for earlier Trophy Series issues (usually molded in box-art colors) as opposed to the later all-white (or sometimes totally-weird off-the-wall color) plastic.

So (just to get things straight...), older boxings would be more likely to have brittle/broken plastic but crisper mouldings, while newer boxings would better plastic, but rougher mouldings? Is that right?

biscuitbuilder - actually most of the info I was able to find was from you, dug up from the dustiest corners of RMS. Amazing how great a resource it remains - the group may have got to hell, but there's a ton of useful information there. And on that note, you've said that the Lindberg Mercedes SSK, tooled around '73(?) is also a nice kit. Doing some digging, I found another release in a box dated 1966. Are there two different Lindberg toolings of the car, or are they both the same kit? (not trying to bust your chops or anything, I just want to know if it matters which boxing I get)

Can Am, sure, I'd love to see your builds. Skimming through various discussion groups, it looks like a lot of people are becoming more interested in the genre. Must be something in the water...

[randyc]

This is an old thread, but I found it searching and figured I'd resurrect it since I just got 3 Hellers - the Bugatti T50, Delahaye 135, and Talbot Record.  Also a Monogram 31 Rolls, Johan Cadillac roadster, Monogram TR8, and finally a Minicraft TR3 to build for a friend.   That's about it for the rest of my building year!  lol.   

I am also starting a 32 Chrysler while working on a Lotus Esprit and Lindberg/Round 2 37 Ford convertible (Smoothster tooling).   

I don't get to keep any of these, but that's okay, I don't have a place to display them if I did.  The joy of the hobby for me is the building, most of the time.   Once in a while a car really stays with me - the 53 Chevy I just completed is an example.  But it was for me anyway.   

The "classic" kits all look fascinating to build.   I did build the 32 Chrysler many years ago - beige/brown car on box.  Connoissuers Classic releas I think.  So I was kinda excited to try it again as an "adult" build.  

Anyone working with these or experience, let me know - jump in with the pitfalls.  I'm looking the kits up and the real cars, preparing for the builds.

[Snake45]

11 minutes ago, randyc said:

This is an old thread, but I found it searching and figured I'd resurrect it since I just got 3 Hellers - the Bugatti T50, Delahaye 135, and Talbot Record. 

Has anyone here ever built the Heller Alfa Romeo Zagato? Squadron had them on sale CHEAP about 20 years ago and I got one since it's pretty cool looking. Looks good in the box but I wonder how easily/well it actually builds. 

[Matt Bacon]

PM me with an email address, Randy, and I’ll send you the build review article I did on the Delahaye for Airfix Model World. They’re generally great kits, detailed, accurate and well-shaped. If there’s a fault it’s that many of the mechanical parts are scale size and thickness, so they can be fiddly and fragile. IIRC I replaced the wheel spindles with brass rod, for example. There’s some quirky design... the door interiors and windows are one transparent piece, for example, but it makes sense when you build. Heller also sometimes uses fine raised detail to show where one part joins another, so look out for it... and don’t sand it off thinking it’s damage!

bestz,

M.

[Richard Bartrop]

I can confirm that the Heller kits tend to be fragile.   I built the T50 long ago, and the general shape is good, but the fron tends to sit high, and the wheels aren't like anything Bugatti was using at the time.  Also, Detail Master's interior Detail set of photoetch door handles and window cranks is just about perfect for detailing the front brake drums. 

I have the MPC Imperial and Lincoln in my build pile.  Los of parts that don't quite fit, but your patience will be rewarded.

This site is a gold mine of Imperial reference pics, including engine and chassis detail http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/index.htm

[Mike999]

Some other neat Heller-isms:

Citroen B14 Torpedo Deluxe: it's not shown or mentioned on the box, but this kit has an optional up-top or folded top. It also has an optional, separate "phaeton-style" windshield and cowl for the rear seat.

Hispano-Suiza K6: this big limousine kit has some amazing detail.  Lots of tiny parts like the fuel pump, mounted on the fender apron. A separate starter motor on the transmission. Brake rods and battery box on the chassis.  The hood side vents are molded half-open, showing the monster 6-cylinder engine. The interior has wooden storage cabinets under the privacy glass (all molded as one clear part).  The clear interior side panel has a clock molded into it. Put on your magnifiers, and you can read the numbers on the clock! 

Renault 4CV: separate hood (in the back) with a detailed engine, and opening front trunk.  The "Voiture Pie" Paris Police version has cut-down doors, a wooden front bench seat and a police radio. 

[randyc]

1 hour ago, Matt Bacon said:

PM me with an email address, Randy, and I’ll send you the build review article I did on the Delahaye for Airfix Model World. They’re generally great kits, detailed, accurate and well-shaped. If there’s a fault it’s that many of the mechanical parts are scale size and thickness, so they can be fiddly and fragile. IIRC I replaced the wheel spindles with brass rod, for example. There’s some quirky design... the door interiors and windows are one transparent piece, for example, but it makes sense when you build. Heller also sometimes uses fine raised detail to show where one part joins another, so look out for it... and don’t sand it off thinking it’s damage!

bestz,

M.

I did see your photos when I googled that one.   Super nice!   PM sent. 

[randyc]

1 hour ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I can confirm that the Heller kits tend to be fragile.   I built the T50 long ago, and the general shape is good, but the fron tends to sit high, and the wheels aren't like anything Bugatti was using at the time.  Also, Detail Master's interior Detail set of photoetch door handles and window cranks is just about perfect for detailing the front brake drums. 

I have the MPC Imperial and Lincoln in my build pile.  Los of parts that don't quite fit, but your patience will be rewarded.

This site is a gold mine of Imperial reference pics, including engine and chassis detail http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/index.htm

Since I'm building for someone else, he understands that I will only use what's in the box or what I have on hand.   I'll have to see if I have those DM parts on hand.  I may.   but thanks for the info.  this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for as I wade into things I haven't done before.  I can put a 80s -90s NASCAR kit together in my sleep, but these are a whole new world of modeling fun.  I'm pretty stoked about this new venture.

[randyc]

14 minutes ago, Mike999 said:

Some other neat Heller-isms:

Citroen B14 Torpedo Deluxe: it's not shown or mentioned on the box, but this kit has an optional up-top or folded top. It also has an optional, separate "phaeton-style" windshield and cowl for the rear seat.

Hispano-Suiza K6: this big limousine kit has some amazing detail.  Lots of tiny parts like the fuel pump, mounted on the fender apron. A separate starter motor on the transmission. Brake rods and battery box on the chassis.  The hood side vents are molded half-open, showing the monster 6-cylinder engine. The interior has wooden storage cabinets under the privacy glass (all molded as one clear part).  The clear interior side panel has a clock molded into it. Put on your magnifiers, and you can read the numbers on the clock! 

Renault 4CV: separate hood (in the back) with a detailed engine, and opening front trunk.  The "Voiture Pie" Paris Police version has cut-down doors, a wooden front bench seat and a police radio. 

The guy I'm building for is shopping for himself.  He is only buying in plastic what isn't available to him in diecasts.   So I dare not tell him about more.  LOL.   I have about 8 kits for him right now.  Ugh, but then again, I get to build things I wouldn't normally buy for myself and there isn't much out now from US mfrs that I haven't already built.  I actually told him to not buy MORE for me to build without checking with me first.   I do wish he would send me a Pocher kit.  Never done one of those and would love to, but he is adamant about sticking to 1/24-25.  Plus he claims to have budget restraints.  If it takes me a month average to complete each kit, then I'm well into next year.