Early Cobra 427 racers: Seat belts and misc other items

[kjohan]

Plan to build two or three of the old Cobra 427 racers,  from Revell (old kits) or Fujimi kits
- CSX 3002 = the prototype 427
- CSX 3008 = the Hal Keck racer
- CSX 3009 = the Essex Wire car

A) In the kits no seat belts are included
Have searched the net for period photos, but the photos I have found are not clear,
on some there are somewhat dark lines over the shoulders of the drivers,
but it is not possible to see if these "lines" are belts or something else
Have found two different (very fine) drawings of old racing Cobras,
but unfortunately one one of them there are no belts, 
the other one has lap belts both on the driver side and the passenger side

Thus my questions are

- were belts not used in these cars in period / in the early years ?
  The  3002 is now restored and now has what I can see a "two-point"/ lap-belt
  but that is after renovation

- if belts were used in period (-65/ 67) were they lap belts only
  or were they full harnesses with two shoulder straps ?
  Belts on both sides or only on driver side ? 
  If harness was actually used , I assume that would be only on driver side ?

- if harness was the execution used, did the shoulder straps attach directly to the rear bulkhead  straight behind the driver?
  Or were they attached to the floor ?

B ) In  at least the Revell kits there are no radiator/ cooling fans included
(the kit depicting the CSX 3002 actually have a two-blade fan but no bracket, as I can find)
But in photos of many Cobras one can frequently see one or two fans (in front of the radiator)
So :
- the three cars mentioned above, were they initially run without fans as according to the kits ( fans perhaps added over time) ?
 

C) The prototype CSX 3002, as seen in photos and YT clips, seems to have a smaller radiator opening in the front end
(more similar to the one on the 289s) vs the other two (later) cars.
At least that is my impression. Correct / wrong ?
Both the Revell and (especially) the Fujimi kits seems to have the larger opening.
Correct/ wrong ?

D) Both the Revell and the Fujimi kits have large single carbs included for all three cars
The Fujimi kit of CSX 3009 has also Webers, though the instruction sheet shows single carb
The CSX 3009 was nicknamed "Ollie the Dragon" emanating from, according to the thread i found,
"It´s habit to throw large flames from it Weber carbs"
Was this car run with both Webers and alternatively with single carb ?
What alternative would be the most correct to use ?

Thanks for information and advices / Gunnar

[vamach1]

I would steer away from the Fujumi kits as they are based on a continuation Cobra and would not represent a 60’s era race car.  Your best bet is to search this forum for the well researched and built 427 racing Cobras built by 65slot car in 2020.

[afx]

You need to determine what time period for each chassis number you want to build as these cars evolved significantly over time.  This will help you determine what details would be most accurate. 

I agree with Rex (vamach1) the Revell kit is a more accurate kit to start with.

Lap belts only typically. Shoulder belts may have been added during the car's evolution. 

Cooling fans where primarily used for street cars and not (typically) used on competition cars.

As an example there appears to be no shoulder belt in this photo.

However in this photo there does appear to be a shoulder belt.

That is why it is best to select a time period you want to replicate.

Edited September 23, 2021 by afx

[afx]

Ollie the Dragon as originally competed:

and in his latter years of competition.

Edited September 23, 2021 by afx

[kjohan]

Thanks for quick info and photos

As I see these photos , it seems like there are no radiator fans and no seat belt harness (perhaps lap belt , in that case obviously not visible) on the CSX3009
Though I have on the net seen (and lost) a blurry photo of Skip Scott driving the car, photo from rear at "3/4 angle".
There one perhaps can see two shoulder straps of a harness, going horizontally rearwards and perhaps converging to a common attachment point. 
Found yesterday evening a couple of recent photos of this car restored and in the Essex livery, the current owner in one of the photos.
The photo angles are unfavourable but also there, it seems that there are no harness dangling
 

 

ANOTHER question came up for me: 
There seems to be some kind of reservoir with a lid, sitting on the upper surface of the right side foot well / firewall,
with hoses coming in and out of this reservoir.
This is clearly molded in the same position on the Revell kit.
What kind of reservoir is this ? Engine oil ?
If so, I assume the hoses goes to the engine ? 
Where do they enter and come out of the engine?

 

[65slotcar]

can't   add too much more to this  that JC and Rex  already  stated.   stay way  from Fujumi   kit .  Most   early  race cars only had drivers lap belt   and  no cooling fans.     Weber  carbs were   used mainly  on 289 comp cobras.  Most  427 race cobras had just a single 4 barrel.   csx 3002  is a tricky  one to build because  grille opening  is  smaller like a 289   comp cobra.   a reservoir  under the passenger  side fender  would be a  dry sump  oil   tank  with a visible cap  on top of right  fender. very few cars had this.  but  not  sure what the molded part is on revell  kit.     did you find   88   numbers for the Hal  Keck  csx 3008   car ?   i have not seen these decals yet.

[kjohan]

Thanks for input

William´s answer confirmed my suspicion that the 3002 would be difficult to make, particularily concerning the nose/radiator opening

So I drop that one, will concentrate on the 3008 and probably the 3009

Concerning William´s question about decals for the 3008 / the Keck car:
In the (old) kit I have, the start number is 11
Have understood that 88 was actually the one most frequently used on this car,
but apparently on a very few number of occasions, the 11 was used.
Have seen one or two rather blurry photos of that.
So the decals in the kit are ok but perhaps 88 would have been more appropriate.

Concerning my additional question about the reservoir/ tanl on the right foot well/ fire wall:

Found out that is what is called the Puke tank.
Having, according a good thread at the cobraclub, 4 hoses connected;
to the oil pan, the intake manifold, the transmission case and an open air went

Regards / Gunnar

[afx]

Very few 427 Cobras competed with dry sump lubrication.  I attempted to replicate this with my build of CSX3016 which was a 427 that ran a dry sump system.   The puke or overflow reservoir is the black cylindrical tank on the fire wall behind the engine.  The larger tank (which I scratch built) on the right side foot well is the remote oil reservoir.  My build is based on the 1/25 scale Sunny kit.

The fill for the remote reservoir appears in the front right fender.  The tell for a dry sump car.

Edited September 24, 2021 by afx

[kjohan]

Thanks JC for clarification and very instructive photos of your fine build.
As I understand it from your comment, that neither the 3008 nor the 3009 have the dry sump system you refer to, 
no filler cap visible on the right fender
But the 3002 has the cap and tank below, which is clearly demonstrated on a Lou Constable YT clip,
as well as can be seen on photos.

Onbviously you have found that the 3016 had seat belt of the lap belt variety.
Found auction pictures of another old warrior, the 3006.
No belts.
So it is a bit confusing what was the practice.

[65slotcar]

12 hours ago, kjohan said:

Thanks for input

William´s answer confirmed my suspicion that the 3002 would be difficult to make, particularily concerning the nose/radiator opening

So I drop that one, will concentrate on the 3008 and probably the 3009

Concerning William´s question about decals for the 3008 / the Keck car:
In the (old) kit I have, the start number is 11
Have understood that 88 was actually the one most frequently used on this car,
but apparently on a very few number of occasions, the 11 was used.
Have seen one or two rather blurry photos of that.
So the decals in the kit are ok but perhaps 88 would have been more appropriate.

Concerning my additional question about the reservoir/ tanl on the right foot well/ fire wall:

Found out that is what is called the Puke tank.
Having, according a good thread at the cobraclub, 4 hoses connected;
to the oil pan, the intake manifold, the transmission case and an open air went

Regards / Gunnar

i did  the number  11  car  and decals from kit are accurate.  would like to find the 88   numbers.   Great info  from JC.   another  thing to look for is some comp cobras  have a long battery  behind passenger seat  and driver seat  is different  then passenger side.  a  bit squared off at top.  i used   a 289  comp cobra seat  on a couple builds.

[Gramps46]

Gunnar, you have a PM.

[kjohan]

Thanks Gary for your kind offer

You have a PM

 

[vamach1]

Someday.

[afx]

As William mentioned, dual batteries behind the passenger seat.

Edited September 27, 2021 by afx

[kjohan]

Thanks for information and fine photos

JC´s decal sheet perhaps can be interpreted as a road map to many interesting hours at the work bench,
perhaps also a few moments of frustration, decals being what they are

I had mine a few hours ago, when I applied the broad white stripes at the Cobra hood scoop.
Did a small45 degree cut at each of the rear corners of the scoop , but could not avoid a couple of small wrinkles.
Used a Tamiya decal glue, fairly new I think, improved situation but not entirely good.
How do you experienced Cobra builders tackle this problem ?

Concerning the (dual) batteries at the rear/ behind the seat:
The cables starting / ending somewhere in the engine bay / where ?
Perhaps in one of the small boxes moulded on the fire wall / If so which/where ?
Or somewhere else ?
JC: where have you found this type of narrow / long batteries ?
(no batteries whatsoever in the kit)

A similar question concerning the horizontal pipe (on the right side of the carburettor/ bathtub), which feeds fuel to the (single) carburettor via two short hoses.
At the front end of the pipe, there is another , thinner hose going forward, "rounding the front end of the carb / bath tub"
and thereafter disappearing, may be downwards in an array of other hoses/ pipes/ ignition cables and what not.
So where is it actually routed ?
 

Surprising how many questions some injection moulded styrene can arise, but it is very stimulating to learn

Regards / Gunnar

[afx]

Gunnar, I scratch built the dual batteries, support tray and anchoring brace.

Positive cable typically connects to the starter solenoid, Negative cable to a ground on the frame.

[kjohan]

Thanks JC for a very instructive scheme

Have come a bit further, building the Revell kit molded in blue.

And found that the rear tyres have very clear Good Year lettering
but the front tyres seem to have Firestone ( the letters are small / need to look with a magnifying glass

so the question comes: did they really race with different tyre manufacurers front vs rear ?
(Photos I have found , shows no such mix, and Good Year seems to be the dominat brand)

Or is this a mix by the kit manufacturer

[vamach1]

36 minutes ago, kjohan said:

Thanks JC for a very instructive scheme

Have come a bit further, building the Revell kit molded in blue.

And found that the rear tyres have very clear Good Year lettering
but the front tyres seem to have Firestone ( the letters are small / need to look with a magnifying glass

so the question comes: did they really race with different tyre manufacurers front vs rear ?
(Photos I have found , shows no such mix, and Good Year seems to be the dominat brand)

Or is this a mix by the kit manufacturer

The kit manufacturer used whatever tire would fit the wheels the best and while unusual to “mix” brands that was not an issue to the folks at Revell/Monogram.

[afx]

The easiest route to build an Essex Wire Cobra is to start with the very nice Monogram kit which includes appropriate Good-Year Sports Car Special race tires.

 

[kjohan]

Yes, need to find one of those kits

Meanwhile I finish "the blue kit" with CSX 3008, Harold Keck , no 11, livery.
And , after a lot of searching, I finally found on the site barcboys a photo of Hal in his car, at 1965 Vineland.
With what apparently must be a 3-point belt, a single shoulder strap clearly visible,
hanging over his right shoulder and chest, and attached to the centre of the car/ "under the rollbar´s right leg"
So I´ll try to make something homemade of that kind.
In the same site there are photos of Hal racing Skip Scott in CSX3009 "Ollie..." as well as Skip/ "Ollie" alone.
No belts visible on that car. But of course the  possibility for lap belts.

Passenger seat already firmly glued into its place = unfortunately no possibility to get a long battery in there as described by JC .
Sorry JC
But on the next build .....

 

[kjohan]

Now I have got myself an Essex Wire kit as well as a few batteries, so ....

But I shall first finish my "approximation" of the the Keck car, very little remaining.

Thereafter finalizing an A-Ford Coupé, fairly far in progress, but interrupted by the Cobra, perhaps one should say "the Cobra poison"

Then back to the snakes again.

Thanks for feed back so far.

[kjohan]

Have finalized the first one, the "blue one". Will soon post a couple of simple photos of it, very humble
 

But I have a couple of more to build and the more you look, the more questions you get.
 

Having no real life hardware to look at, I look for the possibility for help from the knowledge in here.

1) Concerning dual batteries on the racing 427s
  What was the voltage on the electrical system ? 6v or 12 V ?
  Suppose the batteries, regardless of the voltage, were coupled in parallell ?
  (otherwise / if in series the voltage would double)

2) Have seen mentioned that the foot wells were made from glassfibre -reinforced plastic / GRP, and that was an AC design 
    Found on the net a photo of one of the very first ones, perhaps the CSX2000, under build.
    Rolling chassis with the foot wells, including the upper part, installed
   Certainly looks like the entire "boxes could have been in GRP.
   Photos in the net shows the foot wells / the visible upper part of the foot wells on the old cars 
   to have a a colour and a sheen similar to GRP ( unless painted)
   But what about the 427s/ the Mk3s , being considerably re-engineered, compared to the Mk1 and Mk2 cars ?
   Were the foot-wells also in these generations in GRP ? Or was the material changed to metal, alu or steel ?
    Have looked in many photos on the net, no clear clues. Cars from more recent builds seems sometimes to have metal, judging from the photos ?
    but how about the early ones , the CSX 3000-series / the SCs ?

Appreciate very much if someone could help to clarify
/ Gunnar
 

[Mark IV]

Foot boxes are FRP on all Cobras, the inner liner of the engine compartment is bare aluminum. The attached photos are of a 289 but the MK III (427) is similar. The "metal" on the footbox is insulation that the 1960's cars did not have.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Mark IV

[peteski]

I wish I had those photos when I was building my 1:43 289.  I painted the foot boxes white, but they look to be off-white.  It always helps to have good reference materials!

Also, could you tell me what the blue cylinder is on the right side foot box?   I  was told it is some sort of a grease gun?

[afx]

8 hours ago, peteski said:

I wish I had those photos when I was building my 1:43 289.  I painted the foot boxes white, but they look to be off-white.  It always helps to have good reference materials!

Also, could you tell me what the blue cylinder is on the right side foot box?   I  was told it is some sort of a grease gun?

Yes it is a grease gun.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/era-speak-bob-putnam/141774-tecalemit-grease-gun.html