restorations - paint by numbers or freestyle.....

[tubbs]

here is a conversation that always stirs the pot, but in a good way. i hope? are you "paint by the numbers" restore the car EXACTLY the way it was bought...... or "freestyle", change the color, the motor, trans or even for for heavens sakes, TUB IT!! i will be 52 soon, so i, as well as others, have seen the rise and fall (yea, its fallen, don't be fooled) of the musclecar era. i remember buying road runners for $200 just for parts. now, that wont buy you the emblems and decals that go on it.

in your opinion, does a car have to be returned to dead nuts stock? does it have to be origional right down to every nut and bolt? what if you see a 67 coronet R/T, origional 440 car, now has a hemi? how about a 69 Z/28 with a big block and cragars? how about a 70 super bee 440+6 cut, tubbed and turned into a drag car (i happen to know this gentleman, didn't know what he had when he did it). now, whole nother post about the people who try to pass off a fake car for a real car.

when i had my hemi runner, a friend gave me heck because i purchased stick on emblems instead of the ones with the pins on the back. aftermarket instead of NOS. i hated going to shows and hear people say " thats not the right dohickey or whatchamacallit".

just looking for some imput and stir things up. so whats your opinion on this subject? mine, you ask..... my hemi car was origionally F5 green with 2 tone green iinterior, bench seat, 4 speed. if i had it today, it would be black, black interior, racing seats, auto, full tube frame and tubbed.

money wise, yea, i would have lost money on it, but i would have built it the way i wanted it, not the way somebody else orderd it! some people say sell it and buy another one... but its my car!! stock just isnt for me, but i can respect any car, no matter what the owner wants to do with it.

Edited September 11, 2012 by tubbs

[mikemodeler]

Like model car building, as the builder YOU can do whatever you want, to suit your tastes.

That said, would I tub out an original 69 Z-28 and drop in a 572 big block and auto trans? No, I would search out a plain 69 Camaro and slap some Z-28 emblems on it and save a few bucks in the process. But that doesn't mean my neighbor wouldn't !

[2002p51]

I like to build "factory stock" models sometimes. I enjoy the necessary research needed to get correct colors and accessories, etc. But when it comes to my 1:1 cars I can't leave them alone. I've "personalized' every car I've ever owned.

[jaymcminn]

In terms of 1:1 cars, I would take drivability over originality any day... I'd rather have a '78 Trans Am with a modern crate motor or a '67 Mustang with four-wheel disc brakes. It doesn't compromise the character of these cars to make them drive better. Rare or exotic cars are another thing, however... there's an old Ferrari 330 on Ebay with a small-block crate motor installed. That's a bit over the line for me!

Edited September 11, 2012 by jaymcminn

[moparmagiclives]

My car, my way

there's an old Ferrari 330 on Ebay with a small-block crate motor installed. That's a bit over the line for me!

.. the finish line ? Why?

Just as much fun I'm sure, and for probly a third of the cost of the factory motor.

Just giving you a hard time, I think its cool to see people do things their way, but its also cool to see people stretch what the OEM did to the limits.

[Ace-Garageguy]

In 1:1, if it was an EXTREMELY rare car (convertible Hemi Cuda) or a car with a verifiable racing (Ford GT40, SWC Willys) or celebrity history, or the LAST of something (like if I found a VIRGIN '32 Ford in a barn) I'd tend to put it back the way it was new. Anything else is just a blank canvas waiting......

Speaking of Ferraris....I was involved with a Hemi swap into a Lusso about 38 years ago for a client, because it was WAY cheaper than replacing the F. motor with a hole where a connecting rod had left at considerable speed.

[moparmagiclives]

would I tub out an original 69 Z-28 and drop in a 572 big block and auto trans? No, I would search out a plain 69 Camaro and slap some Z-28 emblems on it and save a few bucks in the process.

So, both cars are basket cases, you can tub them both and big block them for the same investment, but to build a factory spec Z-28 you would have a substancial more to invest, to only come out breakig even, Right?

I love questions like these, it really makes someone think about why we do things.

If your building something to sell someday, then I guess you have to build it to meet the largest customer base you can, if its for you, then you better know what you want, unless you like doing things over and over such as myself...lol

Edited September 11, 2012 by moparmagiclives

[philo426]

It is your car so build it the way you want!When I found my MPC '73 Caprice I decided to replace the engine(which was a gluebomb with a 396 from the Revell '66 Chevelle(didn't dig the old axle through the engine block thing)>I also replaced the front suspension and rear axle using the Lindberg '62 Impala kit.I painted the body gold and did the black vinyl roof thing .Came out great!

[Harry P.]

Restoration means restoring to original condition.

Anything else is customizing.

Nothing wrong with either approach, but that's the difference.

[Brian_B]

Restoration means restoring to original condition.

Anything else is customizing.

Nothing wrong with either approach, but that's the difference.

The man has a point. I see so many that say "frame off restoration"...and very very very few are. Anything that was not offered from the factory or as a dealer option is customized. Even the term restomod would be appropriate. I dislike anyone saying restored...when they are not.

With that being said, I own a 1:1 56 Ford F-100. Almost stock...but not quite. I would never claim it was restored. I have power brakes (hidden under the cab), dual reservoir master cylinder, radial tires, auto meter gauges (under the dash), headliner, and carpet. I have the original rubber floor mat, if someone ever wants to go back stock.

I will add seat belts (have them), when I redo the inside. Most of that is safety related changes (other than carpet and headliner the PO put in). The rest of the truck will remain stock.

[moparmagiclives]

original condition.

Not totaly true Harry, or Brian. Your truck was brought back to a working condition, its been restored for operation. It doesnt have to be an "Original, Factory" condition.

[Harry P.]

Not totaly true Harry, or Brian. Your truck was brought back to a working condition, its been restored for operation. It doesnt have to be an "Original, Factory" condition.

It's generally understood that a car that has undergone "restoration" means it has been brought back to factory-original, as-built condition. You can throw in your own definition of what "restored" means, but I'm pretty sure that "restoration" has a specific meaning in the car hobby.

[Nick Winter]

To answer this as guy with a car he's restoring, No it doesn't have to be dead stock, my car will not be dead on factory restoration, it will be Restored to what I believe it should be as far as condition of all components.

Nick

Edit: Changes I will be adding will be Factory Power Brakes's from my parts car and The Dual exhaust it already has on it.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Nick Winter

[Joe Handley]

Depends on the victim.......er......subject. If it were the Charger my folks bought back in '70, that would go back to stock as even then the 440 6-Pack/4-Speed cars weren't particularly common. Now if it was my Turbo Mopars, our Cherokees, or our F/S Chevy Vans, those would be hot rods of some sort.

The Lebaron and Shadow would have healthy 2.2 Turbo motors (maybe drop a 2.4Turbo in one), minivan brakes, and be mostly restored appearance wise (Wheels would need to change with the switch to a 5x4.5" bolt pattern.

The Cherokees would have some sort of stroked I-6's in them with cop XJ springs, ZJ or KJ rear disks, Wrangler/Ram hybrid front brakes, again, restored cosmetically on all but the Briarwood. That would be an experiment too see how easy it would be to use venieer instead of Cheezy vinyl.

My short lived Grand Cherokee would end up with a Viper V-10, 5.9 Limited, suspension, not sure on brakes, wider tires on bigger rims (no more than 18's though, anything bigger looks stupid on them).

The Beauvilles would get LS Motors and 4L80 transmissions, mild lowerings (2/2 or something comparable), 16"-18" in the front and 18"-20" rear wheels that are either Torque Thrusts or Truck Rallys (these in 15x7 were factory), and once again, cometic restorations.

[zenrat]

Never had a car worth a spit but all the old bikes i've owned have all been modified for practicality and then ridden.

That means ditching points ignition for electronic, rubber mounting lights, batteries and electrical boxes, fitting modern oil filters and fitting modern rubber (I've never understood why you would compromise grip for looks).

Edited September 12, 2012 by zenrat

[Joe Handley]

I don't even like comprimising grip for price let alone looks when I can afford to!

[Deathgoblin]

Depends on the vehicle and the condition it was in when you got it. Case in point: My family has had 2 early 70's Dodge Chargers. The first one we bought new in '73, and it was the family pet almost as much as our st. bernard. It was hit one New Years Eve by a drunk while it was parked on the street. That car I would have restored back to factory if given the chance. Years later, my brother bought a '71 Charger. It was ragged out and worn, one of the motor mounts was missing when he bought it, ###### interior from another car. It eventually gave up the ghost and the block cracked. That one I would have modded.

[tubbs]

Restoration means restoring to original condition.

Anything else is customizing.

Nothing wrong with either approach, but that's the difference.

a-ha!! here is where the problem lies.in the 1:1 world, does origional condition mean numbers matching. correct screws, nuts and bolts? even the radiator number has to be correct. (yes, Chrysler has part #'s that went with the hemi's, 440's and 383's). people memorize these numbers and when you display your proud beauty at a show.... SOMEONE will tell you "thats the wrong color" , "they used grade 8 bolts here, not those" , "all the numbers dont match"!! it gets sickening, and what really burns my butt is that a lot of these people dont even OWN a classic, they just know #'s and tell you that you have the wrong parts on your car.

in the model world, i dont think it gets that bad, but i am sure soomeone will mention that that kit should have the axle going thru the block!!

[Brian_B]

a-ha!! here is where the problem lies.in the 1:1 world, does origional condition mean numbers matching. correct screws, nuts and bolts? even the radiator number has to be correct. (yes, Chrysler has part #'s that went with the hemi's, 440's and 383's). people memorize these numbers and when you display your proud beauty at a show.... SOMEONE will tell you "thats the wrong color" , "they used grade 8 bolts here, not those" , "all the numbers dont match"!! it gets sickening, and what really burns my butt is that a lot of these people dont even OWN a classic, they just know #'s and tell you that you have the wrong parts on your car.

in the model world, i dont think it gets that bad, but i am sure soomeone will mention that that kit should have the axle going thru the block!!

Yes...your correct in the real world. If chevy dipped an "A arm" at a certain angle in a certain color of black paint and someone put a red check mark on it at inspection...it better be there for a concourse restoration. It gets crazy at some point. LOL

Ford back in the day did not have the numbers matching part of it that chrysler and chevrolet did. There is no positive way to match the engine (only the year\size of the block). Yet...you see them advertised as numbers matching. Weird.

Mine will never be a concourse restoration. Its a very common vehicle and would not be worth any more "restored" than it is restomodded modern safety features added. I have only owned one vehicle in my life that I wish I had again...restored to factory specs. Oh well.

[Longbox55]

Restoration means restoring to original condition.

Anything else is customizing.

Nothing wrong with either approach, but that's the difference.

Exactly. While many judged car shows will give leeway for consumable items, such as tires and filters, or parts that cannot be seen, such as a Pertronicspoints eliminator, and perhaps different color paint as long as it's a factory color, restored means just that, returned to original condition. Once you start changing things, like different engines (a big block in a Z/28), wheels, tubbing,etc., it becomes modification.

Granted, there are exptions, such as a car with a racing pedigree, or perhaps one used in a TV show or movie (actual car, not replica), and af course anything used as a commercial vehicle, which may require alterations to allow the vehicle to do its job.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with altering it if that's what you want to do, but you should use the correct term.

[moparmagiclives]

It's generally understood that a car that has undergone "restoration" means it has been brought back to factory-original, as-built condition. You can throw in your own definition of what "restored" means, but I'm pretty sure that "restoration" has a specific meaning in the car hobby.

Exactly. While many judged car shows will give leeway for consumable items, such as tires and filters, or parts that cannot be seen, such as a Pertronicspoints eliminator, and perhaps different color paint as long as it's a factory color, restored means just that, returned to original condition. Once you start changing things, like different engines (a big block in a Z/28), wheels, tubbing,etc., it becomes modification.

Granted, there are exptions, such as a car with a racing pedigree, or perhaps one used in a TV show or movie (actual car, not replica), and af course anything used as a commercial vehicle, which may require alterations to allow the vehicle to do its job.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with altering it if that's what you want to do, but you should use the correct term.

I agree with both to a degree, but I dont think its that black and white

I guess it depends on where your at,

I wouldnt see an electronic ignition being counted as " factory original" in a restoration, But I wouldnt argue it being restored, but I would hardly count that as custom either ?

I know the custom definition was beaten to death here already, as well as the restoration definition will be.

I know guys that are more then happy to call a car restored when done thats been painted red, beacuse it was red from the factory. But for everyone of those guys, there are 3 to tell him its the wrong shade and code of red.

Heres another one for you,

Would you concider your restoration a car you built, or asembled? You did'nt manufature the parts right?

[Junkman]

It depends on the car. And yes, I do factor in value, i.e. the value of the altered car vs. the value of it being restored to original.

I hate it when pristine rare cars are cut up to make a custom or rod. Usually, there are enough worn-out examples left to do just that. A car is only original once.

As for clones of rare cars, I have no problem with that, as long as they are labelled as clones. And again, please do not use a creampuff as the base for a clone.

[dirtracer2448]

There are very few cars that I would leave stock if I were to build them, just because I like them the way they are from the factory.

[Brian_B]

....................As for clones of rare cars, I have no problem with that, as long as they are labelled as clones. And again, please do not use a creampuff as the base for a clone.

when you go into that too...how many original 32 fords are left (just using that as an example)? yet..you go to a car show..there are hundreds (different styles) and yet all are labeled as a 32 ford. They are styled after..but are not the original car. Clones..or kits or whatever you call them.

If I remember right, Coddington got in trouble over titling some of his cars in CA as older cars..and nothing on them was old.

We are pretty far off the topic of model cars here. I am a newbie where that is concerned. No clue if any of the old kits (or assembled) are worth anything.

[Tom Setzer]

I personally like clones as you can drive a clone, where orignal restorations are trailer queens. I also like updated cars such as Pro-Touring cars as you get the classic Muscle car in a modern equiped roadcar!