drummerdad Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Im looking into building my 1/8 Iroc into a killer street car shootout contender. It would be a 25.3 tube chassis, street tire, big engine, etc... I was wondering why most of the big scale builders use brass tubing? Is it preference, or structural? I know the brass would be stronger, but is styrene rod and tubing not up to the task? I solder at work frequently, and have even been known to solder copper plumbing pipes. Im sure I could learn to work with brass tubing, but Im better with styrene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62rebel Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 styrene by itself in large scale chassis simply can't take the stress of the weight of all the other parts, and if it doesn't actually break , it will eventually sag or warp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbeard Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
426-Hemi Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 x3 PLUS the brass tubing is soldered together keeping that structural strength intact..... on angle joints and such.... The then plastic parts, will glue with CA or like glue, in gel form pretty good too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I disagree. I build 1/8 scale Pocher kits. Their chassis are plastic and there's no problem. You don't need brass. The weight of a 1/8 scale model isn't so much that a plastic chassis can't support it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 +1 "Structural integrity" would be even less of a problem in a girder structure for a race car and plastic is a lot easier to work with. In critical areas, plastic tubing can be reinforced by inserting piano wire/coat hanger wire/aluminium tubing. Brass and copper have their advantages too, though. It is all about 'feel' and 'heft' and being worshipped on online forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzTom Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I have used both brass and plastic. If you are on the Icoc Z Camaro the body is going to be some reinforcement. In my opinion, plastic tubing would be fine. Like mentioned above if you do detect a week spot inset wire inside the tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comp1839 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 the safe thing to do is build it from brass dwayne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Kucaba Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 This should be a good thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codi Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 This is fun, I'll chime in too and step over to the Comp1839 side of the discussion (note I didn't say argument) To do it in brass, you'll get a level of satisfaction that is a tick above the same in plastic, with the reasoning and knowledge that not everyone CAN do it. It WILL be more time consuming but if you're building for your own personal satisfaction, then take the leap and try it in brass. if it becomes too overwhelming, then you can always do it in plastic right? I build to learn new things and like the challenge that comes with it. Hopefully you'll find the reward and satisfaction in that too. Cheers, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ognib Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I agree with Tim...for the challenge...just to see if I can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I agree with Tim...for the challenge...just to see if I can Building in brass because you want to challenge yourself is fine, But building in brass isn't necessary in a 1/8 scale model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ognib Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 agreed it isn't necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comp1839 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 dwayne, i see lots of OPINIONS here. you may well be able to build a 1/8 scale tube chassis drag car chassis from styrene. i suppose if you can keep ALL of the pieces very lightweight, it's a possibility. i don't suppose the people who are telling you to take this gigantic leap of faith, care to show us their successfully finished 1/8 styrene drag car chassis? pictures of these cars would be a huge help to dwayne, i'm sure. for me, it's a chance i'm NOT willing to take. i have found that some of these aftermarket lightweight pieces can be inaccurate and / or expensive. that's IF they're selling what you actually want. i make my own stuff. it can be quite heavy, thus making a styrene chassis not an option. for instance i weighed the sonny leonard chevy hemi i did not to long ago. no oil pan, no oil system, no headers. it weighed 12 oz. resin block, renshape heads, aluminum valve covers. my 36x17x16 rear slicks (solid neoprene because, no one makes them) with the aluminum wheels weigh in at over 20 oz....each. so,.......i will stick to my "the safe thing to do is build it from brass dwayne." comment. i'll be happy to show you recent pics of my 1/8 scale tube chassis cars. still standing, not sagging or broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Building in brass because you want to challenge yourself is fine, But building in brass isn't necessary in a 1/8 scale model. There's a big difference in building a tube frame in 1/8 scale as opposed to a rail frame, which is what most all 1/8 scale car kits have. This is further complicated when said tube frame is being scratchbuilt from styrene stock, Harry. Raw styrene, such as say, Evergreen, while chemically the same as the styrene used in injection-molded plastic kits, is "softer" feeling, far more flexible than the same material injected into a steel mold under 10's of tons of pressure. In a model project of a car having a tubular frame, often the body shell will impart little, if any, stiffness to the chassis, unlike those large scale models you build. The lack of such rigidity in a scratchbuilt plastic tube frame can mean sagging, even warping over time due to the weight of say, the engine (hmm, that sounds almost like real life), even wheels and tires, which you surely would agree are the heaviest single components of most 1/8 scale models. All that said, brass tubing is easily worked with, indeed any shape brass stock. True, it takes different tools to cut, and requires different tools and techniques for bending, but it's still a great scratchbuilding medium. Even bonding brass together with solder is a simple process, and soldering pieces together with the easily available low temperature silver solder is very easily done (easy to learn too!), and results in joints far stronger than any plastic glued together. Last, it truly takes no more time scratch build in brass than it does in styrene, in fact considerably less, as once a solder joint cools to solidify it's ready to handle, a process that takes only a minute or so, as opposed to waiting at least overnight for any glue joint to dry on styrene. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The chassis doesn't support the weight of the wheels and tires. I have a bunch of old 1/8 scale kits (Jaguar E-Type, Big Deuce, etc.) all built many years ago, and no sign of any warp or sag whatsoever. A properly constructed styrene tube chassis is plenty strong enough to hold up a scale engine and body. The designs of chassis like that take stress, warp, etc. into account... that's why all of those braces and diagonals are there... to prevent warp and sag. Same dynamics work in scale. I'm not taking away anyone's brass. Build with brass if you like. All I'm saying is that brass is not necessary for the structural integrity of a model car, based on my own personal experience. But for anyone who feels that it's "safer" or better to build in brass... have at it! Knock yourself out! Be happy and solder to your heart's content. I'm not trying to stop you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzTom Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The chassis doesn't support the weight of the wheels and tires. I have a bunch of old 1/8 scale kits (Jaguar E-Type, Big Deuce, etc.) all built many years ago, and no sign of any warp or sag whatsoever. A properly constructed styrene tube chassis is plenty strong enough to hold up a scale engine and body. The designs of chassis like that take stress, warp, etc. into account... that's why all of those braces and diagonals are there... to prevent warp and sag. Same dynamics work in scale. I'm not taking away anyone's brass. Build with brass if you like. All I'm saying is that brass is not necessary for the structural integrity of a model car, based on my own personal experience. But for anyone who feels that it's "safer" or better to build in brass... have at it! Knock yourself out! Be happy and solder to your heart's content. I'm not trying to stop you... Exactly. I have seen a few Styrene tube chassis built on the Large Scale forum and they seemed fine. Dwayne appeared to want to build in Styrene as long as it was possible. If it is going to be a street driven Camaro then the body should easily help support the car as a unit, has to fasten to the chassis somewhere. I love working with brass myself but it is not always required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astroracer Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Just to throw some what if's out there... Instead of brass why not use steel tubing? Steel hydraulic lines come in many sizes and can definetly be bought to replicate the 1 5/8, 1 3/4 (use 3/16th OD) and 2 inch (use .25 OD) sizes used in most race chassis. Mig or Tig welding the tubing would be far easier then soldering those large cross-sections presented by 1/4" diameter brass tubing. Doing this would eliminate any melt-back of other joints close to where the soldering is being done. Solid rod can be used for smaller "tubes". IF I was to build a large scale model, this is the way I would go. Mark Edited June 22, 2015 by astroracer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummerdad Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Originally, I wanted to build it from styrene. I am familiar with styrene, have developed a few methods that work, and have the tools already. But I can see where the brass would be stronger. The downside is I dont have any tools to work it, like some of you. I have a dremel, and some files, but thats it. I dont have access to a CNC machine, or band saw, or a lathe, although that would be nice if I did. I guess what I am going to do is build a little test feature; just a few bars at various angles, using the same diameter, just different material, and see which I like more. I wanted to try aluminum also, but not welding it. I dont have the equipment, or experience. Im not sure about soldering it, though. I will find out. I will say as far as I have seen, just from my short time on this forum, the bigger cars seem to look better in brass, with the smaller looking good in styrene. That being said, the guys building in brass are artists on another level. Not saying some of you arent very talented with styrene, but the large brass frame models, with their machined aluminum engines that bolt together, 3d printed bodies, and all the other details, haunt me when I try to sleep. I cant imagine achieving that level of detail with my project. Not that I cant imagine the details I want to add, I just dont have the talent to make the parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
426-Hemi Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I have to say, I have built HO scale trains PROFESSIONALLY for the past 20 years, Granted, plastic is a good structural material in model building BUT brass is superior! Heres why: One, time.............. TIME a lone will warp the plastic, set it in sunlight for a week, the weight from that plastic on plastic frame WILL warp in sunlight ALONE I've WATCHED it happen hundreds of times at friends that have a display case ACROSS a room from a "sunny" window...... Two, HEAT............ ROOM temperature can ALSO "warp" plastic...... three, Strength............ Plastic WILL give! Just like masonry, will crack, plastic WILL "give in" with age! Four, handling........... "Handled" long enough see how long it "survives"....... Brass however, UNLESS direct heat is APPLIED to the surface, is NOT affected by sunlight "heat" it must be directly in contact with the surface to detriment the metal itself OR soldered joints! Sorry Harry and the others but these BIG frames, on heavy bodies, plastic will fail, I'm sorry, I've watched it and REPAIRED for a living over the span of 20 years on what will happen under those conditions what happens to plastic. Brass will corrode, if not painted but as long as its painted those SAME "elements" will not effect brass and its structural strength..... Ask anyone building a G scale garden railroad if they'll use plastic for their "bridge work" I bet its NOT something they will even consider for the VERY SAME reasons. I'm NOT arguing, I'm merely stating facts on the 2 different types of construction medium here "Brass Vs plastic" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingIndian Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 ... so Dwayne, don't park your IROC in the garden or on the radiator in front of the window, and you can go with the plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTallDad Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 If you decide to go brass, this might help http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102629 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codi Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Just a suggestion for you Dwayne. Maybe select a simple hot rod chassis (an early Ford would be a great starting point) and make a smaller scale brass (1/24 or 1/25th scale) chassis to "cut your teeth" as they say. You won't have to buy much in the of equipment or material and it would be a great way to try your hand at it. if your happy with the results then step up to whatever you're comfortable with. Just an idea. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Clutch Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) I drag race nitro and electric remote control cars. For the past 5 years or so, all the electric guys have switched over to bruthless motors and lipo batteries. The voltage at the hit is ridicious, very common to have a 400 amp punch draw on the batteries. We cant "soft" solder the connectors anymore, they literally blow off, so we use solder with a bit of silver in it, but the heat required almost toasts the battery, so we use a heat sink just past the solder point. Usually braided line for desoldering wires. It works great and I suggest it to anyone that is solding brass components together. It will definately help from having other connection points from coming loose. Edited June 23, 2015 by John Clutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteski Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Interestign thread. I especially liked the welded steel frame suggestion. I am on the metal/brass side. The 1:8 Pocher Mercedes 340 AK I built has a stamped steel frame with some plastic overlay on the outside of side rails. Very solid. It is not a full plastic frame - plastic parts are for decoration, not structural support. I also have an unbuilt Pocher Alfa-Romeo and while I haven't peeked inside the box for few years, I'm pretty sure that its frame is just like the Mercedes one (all the structural parts are stamped steel). Pocher kits generally have very heavy thick plastic bodies and it looks like the steel frame is needed for support. If I was scratchbuilding a 1:8 scale model I would make the frame out of metal. As for plastic frames, they do sag and droop. Even in smaller scales. I build the RoG Peterbilt Stepp's Wrecker (in 1:25 scale). It has beefy C-shaped plastic frame rails and yet it sags in the middle (between the sleeper and wrecler body), under its own weight. If and when I decide to build another one of these kits, I'll be sure to stiffen the frame with some brass inserts. In this photo the sag is not very apparent but if viewed square from the side it is readily apparent. Edited July 1, 2015 by peteski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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