First detailed look - Revell's '29 Model A Hot Rod Roadster ...updated with photos of completed builds of both kit versions

[jbwelda]

ok so now we have some measurements, the next problem is going to be interpreting those measurements and specifying exactly what measurements have meaning in the case at hand.

personally, I think the distance between outside diameter of exhaust pipes should be the measurement of choice, because that's whats going to be easiest to measure in the scale version.

looking at the photos it appears to me

distance from 1 to 2: 2 5/8"

distance from 2 to 3: 6"

distance from 3 to 4: 2 5/8"

that's with me taking some liberties in interpreting those photos and the rulers placement. big problem: taking too many liberties is going to reduce the difference in scale by a lot so can't really take too many liberties here.

so now someone with a 1/25 calculator could do the arithmetic and then measure those kit headers and have an answer. or debate the measurements, or take measurements from a completely different place than I did.

my bet is they are going to be so close as to be not a problem unless you got a micrometer handy and in that case I personally surrender.

jb

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2015 by jbwelda
clarity, like mud

[Ace-Garageguy]

We have a winner, folks !!

Measuring and simple math are NOT subjective and up for interpretation. That's why people USE measuring and math. Meanings are absolute, everywhere, by everyone, every day, every hour, in every time zone and every language.

The photos above show the overall dimension between the second and third (center) ports on a real nailhead to be 8 1/8 inches, or 8.125". Divide by 25. You get .325". The OLD Revell parts-pack engine measures .333. Multiply by 25, you get 8.325". 8.325" minus 8.125" equals .2 inches, less than 1/4 inch off, in 1/25 scale. That's quite GOOD ENOUGH.

Are you with me so far?

Spacing between the centers of the first and last ports is shown to be 17". Divide by 25. You get .68". The OLD Revell parts-pack engine measures .67". Multiply that by 25. You get 16.75", same as 16 3/4 inches. Again, a 1/4 scale inch discrepancy in 1/25. Close enough.

Still there?

The port-spacing between centers on the paired end ports looks like 4 9/16" to me. that's 4.5625". Divide by 25. You get .1825". The OLD Revell parts-pack engine measures .17". Multiply by 25. You get 4.25". 4.5625" minus 4.25" equals .3125" or just a tick over...again...1/4 inch discrepancy in 1/25 scale. Really, really "close enough".

No wonder the OLD Revell parts pack engine looks right. It IS right.

Ergo...the NEW Revell engine must be pretty far off (like a full inch or two) to be so instantly noticeable. 

See how easy that was to measure and figure things out? Didn't cost $100,000 like some folks would like to lead you to believe.

PS. Please excuse any possible typos in the above. It's late, I'm tired, and I'm not getting paid for accuracy.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[jbwelda]

would you care to work out exactly how far off the NEW engine/headers are from "real" ones? that is the question. and that's what I would like to hear the answer to, not how the parts pack unobtainium motor stacks up against real. I also think you are taking some very liberal interpretations of the photos I see above. but its probably close enough. thanks jb

[Ace-Garageguy]

would you care to work out exactly how far off the NEW engine/headers are from "real" ones? that is the question. and that's what I would like to hear the answer to, not how the parts pack unobtainium motor stacks up against real. I also think you are taking some very liberal interpretations of the photos I see above. but its probably close enough. thanks jb

1) I don't have the "new" engine in hand to measure...yet. I will.

2) The visual discrepancy between the "old" and "new" Revell engines is instantly visible in the photos Tim Boyd posted, to anyone who has a discerning eye.

3) The poster who put up the photos of the REAL nailhead obviously knows how to measure from port-centerline to port centerline accurately, as do I. His measurements are fine, easily understood  by anyone who is used to measuring mechanical things, and there are no "liberal interpretations" being taken whatsoever...but believe what you like. The only possible error that could be introduced here is the placement of the END of the poster's tape relative to the not-visible port centerline. With only a 1/4 inch discrepancy coming out in my calculations, I'll go with my interpretation of the measurements. They're all too consistently close to be coincidental.

4) I don't mean to be harsh, but the way you interpreted his measurements (and suggesting measuring from outside pipe-edge to outside pipe-edge) is meaningless gibberish, and assumes ALL exhaust headers will be portrayed in correct-scale diameter, and all the SAME diameter. That assumption allows for a considerable possible error to be introduced that would invalidate any statement made as to accuracy. If someone from Revell DID in fact measure a nailhead during the design process, measuring as you suggest could very possibly be the source of the error.

The only VALID and USEFUL measurement is port-centerline to port centerline.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Snake45]

Thanks for putting up those real Nailhead pics, JB. Comparing the two it looks really close to me. Way to close to make a fuss over and definitely way too close to condemn the engine to the trader classifieds. Like Bill, I build hot rods for a living too and know all too well that sometimes being a perfectionist can be a curse. I don't mean this with any disrespect, but I think the port-spacing argument is getting pretty nit-picky. I mean, the engine doesn't look like anything other than a vintage Buick. Although, I'm not intimately familiar with Buick engines so maybe it's easier for me to not see the issue? 

Now, the port spacing on the "Chrysler" Hemi engine in the Revell '32 5-Window? Yeah, that's obviously wonky.

+1 on all this.

If I really, REALLY look at it, it looks like the spacing between the two pairs of ports might be just a touch generous. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either. Looks like a Buick engine to me.

[Ace-Garageguy]

+1 on all this.

 Looks like a Buick engine to me.

Yeah, and this looks like a Corvette too.

I mean, it's obviously a Corvette. Who could possibly deny that?

Close enough for some, I guess.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Snake45]

Yeah, and this looks like a Corvette too. Obviously a Corvette. Close enough for some, I guess.

Yeah, I knew I was gonna get this. Just a matter of time.

I can get as anal about things as the next guy. I don't understand how anyone can build the Revell '67 Camaro, or '69 Nova, or '69 Mustang without fixing the major shape issues each of these kits have. But this Buick engine just isn't moving my Upset-Meter all that much. Maybe a "1" or "2" on a scale of 10.

I suppose we all have our preferences and peccadillos, eh?

[Ace-Garageguy]

How dare you allude to my peccadillos?  

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Rob Hall]

You guys do realize this is a Hot Rod?  Not stock bodied..not necessarily stock anything...don't expect factory stock parts..

Edited August 23, 2015 by Rob Hall

[Ace-Garageguy]

You guys do realize this is a Hot Rod?  Not stock bodied..not necessarily stock anything...don't expect factory stock parts..

Gee Rob...port spacing is port spacing is port spacing. It doesn't change just because it's in a hot-rod. Ever built an engine in anything?

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Rob Hall]

Gee Rob...port spacing is port spacing is port spacing. Ever built an engine in anything?

I've built engines in model cars..

Edited August 23, 2015 by Rob Hall

[Ace-Garageguy]

It's representing 50-60 year old engine....who knows what is accurate with something like that??  Again, it's a hot rod..not stock.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. The dimensions of the port-spacing are in the photos of the real engine posted previously, I did the math on the OLD Revell engine, WHICH IS CORRECT, and some of us work on this REAL vintage stuff daily. Dimensions don't magically warp and move just because something's old.

Sometimes having some factual knowledge can be a BIG help in forming an opinion.

[Rob Hall]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. The dimensions of the port-spacing are in the photos of the real engine posted previously, I did the math on the OLD Revell engine, WHICH IS CORRECT, and some of us work on this REAL vintage stuff daily. Dimensions don't magically warp and move just because something's old.

Sometimes having some factual knowledge can be a BIG help in forming an opinion.

Whatever.   

[Ace-Garageguy]

Whatever.   

Classic response. Concise, factual, addresses the issue at hand, well thought out, and to the point. 

[Rob Hall]

Classic response. Concise, factual, addresses the issue at hand, well thought out, and to the point. 

Yes.   Anyway, trivial engine errors like that are usually a non issue on most kits as it is hidden under the hood when the kit is finished.  I can see how one might get upset by something like that on a hot rod w/ no hood, though

Edited August 23, 2015 by Rob Hall

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yes.   Anyway, trivial engine errors like that are usually a non issue on most kits as it is hidden under the hood when the kit is finished.  I can see how one might get upset by something like that on a hot rod w/ no hood, though

Bingo !!!

It's an issue because the engine is an integral part of the look of this car, and that it shows at first glance.

The whole REASON of using a nailhead in the thing is because it's an instantly recognizable icon in the traditional hot-rod end of the car hobby.

Easy to get right. Should have been right. Isn't.

[Tom Geiger]

OMG!  The manifold is off!  It was discovered on Friday and the entire stock market dropped 500 points!  Oh the carnage! 

Seriously, the reason the Revell Parts Pack engine is so accurate is that back in the good ole days,  they literally dropped an engine in the middle of the design room. The model car market was so large and important in those days,  car manufacturers would do things like this.  The slant six they used was literally a door stop in Jim Keeler's office until he gave it to Tex Smith to use in the XR6 show car.

By comparison, our kits today are designed by people half a world away who have never seen a 1:1 and are relying on measurements and information relayed to them from the USA.  The Chinese engineers are extremely well educated and good at what they do.  If our market got large enough to support shipping an actual car there for the project, I'm sure we'd see some amazing things!

And thank you Martin for the photographs!  I used to own a '60 Electra and was wishing I still had it for this exercise.  I hope you didn't take your engine apart just for us!

[Snake45]

How dare you allude to my peccadillos?  

I alluded to ALL our peccadillos--mine included.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Seriously, the reason the Revell Parts Pack engine is so accurate is that back in the good ole days,  they literally dropped an engine in the middle of the design room. The model car market was so large and important in those days,  car manufacturers would do things like this.  The slant six they used was literally a door stop in Jim Keeler's office until he gave it to Tex Smith to use in the XR6 show car.

By comparison, our kits today are designed by people half a world away who have never seen a 1:1 and are relying on measurements and information relayed to them from the USA.  The Chinese engineers are extremely well educated and good at what they do.  If our market got large enough to support shipping an actual car there for the project, I'm sure we'd see some amazing things!

And thank you Martin for the photographs!  

Ummm...we just proved that having the engine in front of ME wasn't necessary to get accurate measurements of the port spacing, and then scale them to 1/25.

It's just as easy to break out the ol' tape measure and use it to arrive at critical dimensions DURING the design process, and to e-mail them to China.

No shipping of the whole car is required. 

But Revell COULD have sent one of THEIR OWN old parts-pack engines and said...here you go. Make it like this. It's accurate.

Maybe $10 postage, max..

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Rob Hall]

OMG!  The manifold is off!  It was discovered on Friday and the entire stock market dropped 500 points!  Oh the carnage! 

Seriously, the reason the Revell Parts Pack engine is so accurate is that back in the good ole days,  they literally dropped an engine in the middle of the design room. The model car market was so large and important in those days,  car manufacturers would do things like this.  The slant six they used was literally a door stop in Jim Keeler's office until he gave it to Tex Smith to use in the XR6 show car.

By comparison, our kits today are designed by people half a world away who have never seen a 1:1 and are relying on measurements and information relayed to them from the USA.  The Chinese engineers are extremely well educated and good at what they do.  If our market got large enough to support shipping an actual car there for the project, I'm sure we'd see some amazing things! 

I hate outsourcing...working with a software vendor in China currently on a project for my client...it's quite frustrating to have 4-5 hr calls with one person translating back and forth to try and clarify requirements...

[oldscool]

You guys are killing me.I think I will go look at Hyperscale for some relief.

[jbwelda]

you know Bill, I am about tired of reading your holier than thou screeds and your implied and stated insults to me and others. I doubt very much your self described "expertise" and I do not agree with the way you are analyzing this situation, but I have yet to call you an idiot which you basically just called me, and others. but don't push me buddy...or I will go all Donald tRump on you.

the most noticeable thing on a MODEL engine is the distance between the header pipes. period. not the center of the ports, not the diameter of the tubing. all you really see is the distance between header pipes.

so you go on with your little fantasy that you know way more than anyone else here and lets see if Revell hires you as their engineer. yeah I know, you don't want the job, you just want to stand on the sides and heckle. hopefully (for you) Revell will pull all these kits and substitute their 50 year old parts pack motor before they rerelease it. yeah that's going to happen over what amounts to fractions of a millimeter mismeasurement.

I am so tired of hearing your pedantic observations and rantings...in which you insist on absolute accuracy but then make unbelievable leaps of faith to "prove" your points.

jb

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

you know Bill, I am about tired of reading your holier than thou screeds and your implied and stated insults to me and others. I doubt very much your self described "expertise" and I do not agree with the way you are analyzing this situation, but I have yet to call you an idiot which you basically just called me, and others. but don't push me buddy...or I will go all Donald tRump on you.

the most noticeable thing on a MODEL engine is the distance between the header pipes. period. not the center of the ports, not the diameter of the tubing. all you really see is the distance between header pipes.

so you go on with your little fantasy that you know way more than anyone else here and lets see if Revell hires you as their engineer. yeah I know, you don't want the job, you just want to stand on the sides and heckle. hopefully (for you) Revell will pull all these kits and substitute their 50 year old parts pack motor before they rerelease it. yeah that's going to happen over what amounts to fractions of a millimeter mismeasurement.

I am so tired of hearing your pedantic observations and rantings...in which you insist on absolute accuracy but then make unbelievable leaps of faith to "prove" your points.

jb

 

Thing is JB, I actually know what I'm talking about. Kinda rare these days, so I guess it's hard to accept. Disagree and doubt all you want. It's no skin off my peccadillo.

And the distance between-port centers is what determines the distance between the header pipes. Pretty simple concept to grasp.

Frankly, I'm tired of people constantly justifying mis-measurements of around 2 scale inches. Not "fractions of a millimeter" as you say, but more like 2mm. If you can't see a 2mm mistake, you ought to love that chop-topped Mustang kit everyone criticizes so much.

Or, as Rob said..."whatever".

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Snake45]

You guys are killing me.I think I will go look at Hyperscale for some relief.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Post of the Thread, IMHO!

[1930fordpickup]

Easy answer to all this is the Flathead Ford.