First in-depth look - Revell's new '30 Model A Chopped Five Window Coupe kit...

[Ace-Garageguy]

For those who don't want to do a full firewall swap, it could be made to look more like a 1:1 with a couple of additions:

1. a strip around the perimeter to give it the "stepped" look like the original. Divots could be filed in the sides to match the 1:1.

2. sand the heck out of the "crown" of the firewall...right now it's ultra square ( like a square edge with a 2" scale fillet), whereas the 1:1 and the old AMT/Revell firewalls have a more gradual curve. The difference in radius can be seen very clearly in your comparison photographs, so thanks for those!

Excellent advice, exactly what I have in process as we speak.   Thinning down the rib around the cowl edge goes a long way to helping with the look too.

[Richard Bartrop]

If you're going to have to replace the firewall and reshape the cowl, would it be worth replacing the entire cowl with the one from the sedan?

[Spex84]

On my Monogram '30 build I flattened a stock firewall (and recessed it) to fit a hemi. To do this I had to section out the "humps" on either side of the firewall (while retaining the stamped "x" pattern in the center) and then carefully press the center part of that X-pattern flat, then glue, fill, and sand (all the while being careful to retain the stamped pattern). It was kind of a ton of work for not much gain.

Long story short: if you want a _flat_ firewall (which makes fitting an engine much, much easier and can improve proportions significantly), then modifying the new Revell '30 coupe piece is probably easier than trying to patch in a sedan cowl and then modify it to fit your engine.

Aaaand the '30 I ordered just showed up in the mail. ShaWING!

[Ace-Garageguy]

If you're going to have to replace the firewall and reshape the cowl, would it be worth replacing the entire cowl with the one from the sedan?

No. WAY more work. Just replacing the firewall allows you to hide the seam entirely, and if you fit it very carefully, you'll have no filling to do...at all. Replacing the entire cowl will get you into door lines, matching A-pillars to the roof, and other unnecessary work.

I WILL be doing a cowl swap from a '29, along with some other supporting mods, to make the new-tool revell '30 coupe into a '28-'29.

[horsepower]

One more note. The firewall on the '30-'31 body is often recessed behind the leading edge of the cowl to get more engine room...like this. It's an effect you can get EASILY with the new kit, with just a little effort.

 

 I can see the body line that you say is not a stamped reveal, but chrome on the 1:1 cars present in your picture of the 1:1 with the recessed firewall and it sure appears to be stamped and not a separate chrome molding.

[horsepower]

Did you guys ever finish that thing ? 

If would appear that the cowl surround is offered in both a chrome molding that fits OVER the stamped molding or just a plain stamped molding like is on the red oxide primered coupe and several other cars pictured. It does appear to be a small molding until the chrome piece is added though, could it be that the chrome molding was part of the trim on a car ordered with the optional cowl lamps, or as a dress up instead of a plain jane car?

[Luc Janssens]

If would appear that the cowl surround is offered in both a chrome molding that fits OVER the stamped molding or just a plain stamped molding like is on the red oxide primered coupe and several other cars pictured. It does appear to be a small molding until the chrome piece is added though, could it be that the chrome molding was part of the trim on a car ordered with the optional cowl lamps, or as a dress up instead of a plain jane car?

Isn't it there to cover up, spotwelds or so?

Just guessing....

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's a better shot of the firewall / body junction. The firewall slips under the edge of the cowl itself, much as it does on the new Revell model. There is a gasket between the firewall and the cowl, which is showing as a black line on the light blue car with the reversed and recessed firewall above. The recess with the line of screws in it in this shot is where the hood anti-squeaker webbing normally resides on a car with a hood. The dimple in the side of the cowl / firewall is there to clear the backside of the piano-style hinge that lives between the hood top and side panels. (Images taken from open internet sources under copyright "fair use" definition)

The top of the cowl on a stocker is in reality the fuel tank.    

Here's a shot of the tank installed, with the attachment holes and webbing recesses showing, but with the bright metal surround removed. The line you see is the result of the car being painted with the bright-metal surround installed and masked. This is obviously an unrestored car that's likely been hacked on...a lot.

And this is an OEM '30-'31 gas tank top / cowl, in naked steel. Removes any ambiguity as to how these things are made. You'll see stamped dimples that serve to keep the bright-metal surround aligned when it's installed, as opposed to a stamped ridge or "reveal" on the leading edge.

Repop cowl tops that replace the OEM tank are often made "smooth", no dimples (this one is by Brookville).  

And this is the trim, or "cowl band" surround.  

Pretty sure the "bright" version was on all the cars, the "plain steel" version was on the trucks.

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Toner283]

What Bill has explained and shown pics of is how it was done back then. Henry didn't waste time, money or effort unless it was necessary. The dimples that are on the cowl top to hold the trim band in place are also in a couple of places on the sides of the cowl as well.

Couple of other Model A facts that some of you will find interesting. 28/29 passenger cars had a steel radiator shell that was nickel plated (not chromed). 28/29 commercial vehicles had a steel radiator shell that was painted. 30/31 rad shells were a stamped stainless steel part that was polished on the outside for all models.

The 30 rad shells were one piece plus a crank hole cover. 31 rad shells were 2 piece with the top piece on the front face of the shell (where the Ford oval emblem mounts) color matched to the main color of the cars body.

The Ford oval emblem on the rad shell was a nickel plated emblem with the familiar blue background done in ceramic on the USA built cars. On the Canadian built cars, same emblem but with a black background.

USA built Model A's used flathead drive screws in the woodwork inside them and the Canadian built cars used robertson (square) drive screws.

The frame for the model A's was the same for all 4 years and the same for all light duty models (passenger cars, pickup trucks, panel vans, sedan deliveries and coachbuilt cars). Heavy trucks (AA Models) were on heavier frames.

Early 1928 models are known as Model AR's. Several differences set them apart from regular production models. A couple of the easiest to visually spot are the handbrake handle on the left of the driver instead of in the middle of the car and the AR's all had red steering wheels. Regular production cars all had black steering wheels.

In the middle of 1927, Henry finally admitted that his long running Model T was not what the buying public wanted anymore and he was losing sales to his competitors. At that point, he stopped production at his factories for approximately 5 months and his designers and engineers took a clean sheet of paper and designed and built a totally new car. Almost nothing was carried over from the Model T production. Could you imagine that today? A car manufacturer not making any vehicles for 5 months? Wouldn't happen.

[Spex84]

I've been messing around comparing the new '30 body to the old 1/24 Monogram coupe, and seeing what other parts might fit. A few notes:

-The various interior and suspension parts, as well as the headlights, taillights, wheels, etc. are all winners and I'm ecstatic to have them all in my stash!

-The Monogram and Revell bodies each have their strengths and weaknesses. There are definitely 3 or 4 areas of the new body that I'll be tweaking, aside from the firewall.

-The new '30 fits a Revell '32 3-window coupe frame, but has to be spread slightly in order to fit.

-The stock Monogram 1/24 model A hoods are not wide enough to fit the Revell cowl, and also not long enough to fit the deuce-style frame BUT...

-The Monogram 1/24 '32 Ford roadster hood (louvered) is a fairly close fit. The Monogram '30 Woody has a deuce grille and hood that fit pretty well too.

-As shown by Bill, the new '30 coupe doesn't fit Revell '30 Tudor fenders without filling some big gaps around the rear whee arches BUT if you don't mind mixing scales, the body will sit down on the Monogram '30 fenders with less gaps to fill. These fenders will look fairly wide, though.

-Because the new '30 coupe's cowl is wider at the front than the Old Monogram 1/24 (although part of this effect is the wide cowl band), the old Revell '30 Tudor firewall doesn't fill the gap especially well, but it does match the shape better than the Monogram '30 coupe firewall, which doesn't really fit well or fill the space. I think I'm just going to build it with the kit firewall, modified with some detail strips and extra shaping.

 

I've uploaded some more pictures to an album here. A couple of the images compare the new body and the old Monogram to reference photos...I'm trying to figure out why the roof doesn't feel "right" to me, and how to tweak it until I'm happy with the result.

http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Spex84/library/ScaleModels/Revell 30 Coupe Comparison?sort=3&page=1

[Ace-Garageguy]

^^ EXCELLENT ADDITIONAL MATERIAL PROVIDED BY SPEX. Be SURE to click on the link to more photos he's generously posted that further compare and contrast the old and new '30 coupes.

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Following up on my remark that the cowl band is rather too large and out of scale, and the idea Spex mentioned above (and that I'd already been working on) of rounding the too-sharp transition of the firewall corners and adding a strip of styrene around the edge to mimic the look of the 1:1 better, as well as the width of the cowl relative to hoods...

This shot is of a fairly quick rounding of the firewall, with a strip of .030" X .080" styrene strip added to simulate the cowl extension that looks more like the stock 1:1. The large cowl band has been removed from the body shell too, leaving just what should be a stock width cowl. The width of the strip was selected and installed at a depth that would allow the firewall to bottom on the ridge molded around the inside of the body, as Revell intended.

Several pix of it installed on the body shell. Much closer to OEM and typical hot-rod appearance, in my opinion. Compare to the photos of real ones, posted above.

Now, here's the bugger. The 1/25 Revell NEW TOOL cowl leading edge is significantly WIDER than the 1/24 Monogram OLD TOOL cowl leading edge...even after the too-large cowl band has been removed...as evidenced by these shots of the difference in the width of a virgin 1/24 Monogram 1/24 '30 coupe hood (green). If everyone was measuring and dividing correctly, the reverse would be true...the 1/24 part would be WIDER than the new 1/25 part. Simply mind boggling. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Rob Hall]

 

Now, here's the bugger. The 1/25 Revell NEW TOOL cowl leading edge is significantly WIDER than the 1/24 Monogram OLD TOOL cowl leading edge...even after the too-large cowl band has been removed...as evidenced by these shots of the difference in the width of a virgin 1/24 Monogram 1/24 '30 coupe hood (green). If everyone was measuring and dividing correctly, the reverse would be true...the 1/24 part would be WIDER than the new 1/25 part. Simply mind boggling. 

 

 

<sarcasm>

I guess the difference is because the Monogram represents a stock '30 in 1/24th whilst the Revell represents a custom wide body hot rod '30 in 1/25th...   

</sarcasm>

Edited July 16, 2016 by Rob Hall

[Ace-Garageguy]

I guess the difference is because the Monogram represents a stock '30 in 1/24th whilst the Revell represents a custom wide body hot rod '30 in 1/25th...   

A "custom wide body hot rod '30"? Interesting concept. If you ever see one, preese to ret us all know of its whereabouts and provenance. 

[Rob Hall]

A "custom wide body hot rod '30"? Interesting concept. If you ever see one, preese to ret us all know of its whereabouts and provenance. 

They got their measurements from something...as good a guess as any.  (I was being sarcastic, but I assume the 50 yr old Monogram tooling was more scale-accurate than Revell's).

Edited July 16, 2016 by Rob Hall

[Ace-Garageguy]

...I was being sarcastic...

I know.     But that explanation is one I'm sure will be presented as the "reason" in not too long.

[Spex84]

Lol. Yo, check my widebody "A" conversion!

I was really surprised at that, too. If anything, I thought Revell would cheat and narrow/pinch the cowl to meet the frame rails, as the frames were designed to fit the '29 roadster which has a more defined cowl pinch. I have to give 'em credit for making it fit!

But now I'm trying to find some dimensions so I can see if the old Monogram cowl was "wrong" all along...it would be pretty funny if that were true.

Nice work on the cowl mods Bill...I'm glad you're going first...the "guinea pig". I'll follow along as soon as I can get some bench time.

[Rob Hall]

I know.     But that explanation is one I'm sure will be presented as the "reason" in not too long.

I edited my post to include the sarcasm tags.

[Greg Myers]

In light of the "Popular" '32 style roof insert, I'm not surprised.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

I edited my post to include the sarcasm tags.

Oh, the huge manatees.

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

But now I'm trying to find some dimensions so I can see if the old Monogram cowl was "wrong" all along...it would be pretty funny if that were true.

Good luck finding it online. I have a dimensioned set of drawings around here somewhere for all the model A bodies, but I can't put my hands on them at the minute. I checked the roadster dimensions against a Brookville repop body when we had one in the shop, and they were dead on. That was way back when I was converting an AMT '32 roadster shell to a '30.

The dimensions on the white '29 body shell were pulled directly from a brand-new Brookville '30 repop. 

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

AND by the way...the dimensioned drawings that are on the internet are the same ones shown in my photo immediately above. THEY ARE NOT ACCURATELY SCALED. What this means is that if you go by the dimensions given, and attempt to interpolate several of the NON-dimensioned parts on the drawing...like the width of the firewall...which would be possible if the drawings were accurate and done by a competent draftsman to exact scale, which they're not...you'll often get WRONG results.

[Spex84]

Hey Bill, I just found measurements for 30/31 hood fitment, which will give me the *rough* extent of the cowl at its widest point. Going to go and measure some kit parts now.

The issue of incorrect blueprints is something I really noticed a few years back when I was doing some 3D modeling...3D artists often locate blueprints online, then when their 3D models are criticized they say "but I followed the blueprints exactly!"...problem is, they were either using incorrect measurements (like the ones you mention above) OR they're using the decal-placement illustrations for model kits, which frequently bear only a passing resemblance to the actual car!

[Spex84]

Edit* And I should say I'm guilty of doing the exact same. I've even used other people's 3D models as blueprint-style reference, that were probably based on faulty information in the first place. So no casting stones here!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yup. that sort of thing is rampant. Checking primary sources is critical when doing any engineering design work that relies on old data.

Speaking of primary sources...I found this. Obviously it's an original Ford document, or at least prepared from Ford data. Unfortunately, the critical dimensions for determining the width of the firewall are absent. I have a FRONT view of a similar Ford drawing that DOES have these, but as I said, it's temporarily MIA. If THESE dimensions are all checked against the drawing (after printing it out and determining the nominal scale it comes out in), and IF the scaling of the drawing is accurate, it should be possible to determine the width of the cowl quite accurately.

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Spex84]

Ok, I went and did some rough measuring based on some diagrams I found online for '30 Ford hoods. I measured the Monogram and Revell hoods, and the Revell cowl.

Warning: speculation follows!

I tried to measure the actual width of the cowl, NOT including the cowl band molding. From what I can tell, the Monogram '30 hood is almost exactly right. The Revell hood appears to be about 2" longer on each side, measuring with a thin strip of paper wrapped over the cowl, NOT a straight side-to-side measurement. So this discrepancy only amounts to about 1.5" or so on each side, if measuring straight across the width of the cowl from beltline to beltline.

That 1.5 to 2" number rang some bells, so I did some quick research on how 1:1 builders fit a '30 cowl to a deuce frame. I found that:

-while the Revell '30 frame was originally pinched slightly to fit a '29 roadster body, it is actually almost the same dimension across the bottom of the firewall as the original Revell deuce frames from the 3w and Tudor.  Assuming the older frames are correctly dimensioned, this means that the Revell '30 cowl is the perfect width to fit a stock '32 frame. Here's the catch: a 1:1 '30 ford coupe cowl does not fit a '32 frame without A: the frame being pinched 1.5-2 inches per side or B: the cowl being spread the same amount.

SO...I think Revell's engineers did their homework and spread the cowl of the '30 coupe to perfectly mate with the deuce-style frame, but when they did so...they widened the entire cowl by 1.5 to 2 scale inches, instead of just spreading the bottom of the cowl.

Here are some photos pulled from the HAMB threads on fitting '30 Fords to 32 frames...a couple 1:1 '30 coupes that have a spread cowl, and a shot of a work-in-progress '30 cowl being spread to meet a deuce frame. Notice that the pie-cut means the top of the cowl and firewall remain un-widened: