TUTORIAL: Steerable I-Beam (and tubular) Front Axles, part one

[Straightliner59]

  On 2/22/2024 at 2:04 PM, ColonelKrypton said:

I will have to look more closely at the train bits and pieces. Train stores around here ( Canada in general ) are not as well stocked of such detailing parts as they once were.

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Here in the Denver area, there used to be what was probably the greatest model railroad store in the country--Caboose Hobbies. My friend, Don and I spent hours, in that place looking at different castings and machined parts. He started using the handrail stanchions, and told me about them. I have used them, since. There is no telling how much money I spent, in that place on materials and supplies, alone! Alas, while the name still exists (I think), it's not really even a shadow of its former greatness.

I agree--whatever works, I'll use it! If I don't have it, thankfully, I mostly have the ability to make it with round stock, and PCB bits in the lathe. I always have my eyes open for building materials, no matter the source. I've made steering axles from brass and plastic, both--it depends on what the rest of the project requires. If I'm going for quick and easy, I'll generally use plastic. My Nostalgia Top Fuel dragster has brass components, up front. The attached are a Monogram Model A Coupe, I'm working on--well, was--and will be again, at some point.

Edited February 23, 2024 by Straightliner59

[NOBLNG]

  On 2/23/2024 at 6:57 AM, Straightliner59 said:

I agree--whatever works, I'll use it! If I don't have it, thankfully, I mostly have the ability to make it with round stock, and PCB bits in the lathe. I always have my eyes open for building materials, no matter the source. I've made steering axles from brass and plastic, both--it depends on what the rest of the project requires. If I'm going for quick and easy, I'll generally use plastic. My Nostalgia Top Fuel dragster has brass components, up front. The attached are a Monogram Model A Coupe, I'm working on--well, was--and will be again, at some point.

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What do you use for glue when building tiny parts that require the strength to withstand some mild abuse, like steering components?

Thanks, Greg.

[ColonelKrypton]

  On 2/23/2024 at 1:58 PM, NOBLNG said:

What do you use for glue when building tiny parts that require the strength to withstand some mild abuse, like steering components?

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That is one of my concerns with using polystyrene or ABS hence my fall back to using something like brass or aluminum.  Perhaps I should be exploring a more hybrid approach of mixing plastic and metal more often. 

Polystyrene and ABS is soft and easy to work with but leaves me worrying about the strength of small glued joints. Perhaps I worry too much. 

Acrylic is much harder but more difficult to work with few choices in raw materials other than sheets and small rods and doesn't always play well gluing to polystyrene or ABS

Brass is strong, perhaps too strong for some tasks, easy to work, can be soldered.

It is not easy to break old habits and break away from old comfortable ways of doing something. I will make it a point of using more plastic tiny bits - nothing ventured, nothing gained and perhaps I will find a new comfortable place with a more hybrid approach. 

cheers, Graham

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 2/23/2024 at 1:58 PM, NOBLNG said:

What do you use for glue when building tiny parts that require the strength to withstand some mild abuse, like steering components?

Thanks, Greg.

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Liquid "solvent" cement is perfectly adequate for styrene, acrylic, and ABS, assuming you use the right one, and assuming it's used correctly.

Solder is the hot setup for brass.

Fabbing small parts from aluminum reauires a little more care and out-of-the-box thinking, because of aluminum's tendency to form an invisible layer of surface oxidation that interferes with adhesion of most gloo.

Edited February 23, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[ColonelKrypton]

  On 2/23/2024 at 2:31 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

assuming you use the right one, and assuming it's used correctly.

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That is always the struggle.

I know of gentleman who builds fabulous scratch built 1/144 scale Great War and early era aeroplanes;. They are real tiny gems.

He uses polystyrene but also uses acrylic especially for carving out the wings for these tiny models. I have only dabbled with a bit but now having broached the idea in this topic I think it is about I time I did some experimenting and testing. 

Feeling newly invigorated with a fresh idea in my big rattling head, I am off to the workshop to have a play. ( and a search online for some small size acrylic rods and what not and will have another look around the Dollar store later today when I am out and about )

cheers, Graham 

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 2/23/2024 at 2:48 PM, ColonelKrypton said:

He uses polystyrene but also uses acrylic especially for carving out the wings for these tiny models. I have only dabbled with a bit but now having broached the idea in this topic I think it is about I time I did some experimenting and testing. 

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Bonding acrylic successfully is a little different from bonding styrene, and the bond, in my experience, usually tales 24 hours to reach full strength.

I recently had to develop a way to make some custom interior "chrome" trim parts for a full-scale project, and square acrylic rod was the material of choice in this case. The problem was attaching small mounting tabs for threaded fasteners to hold the trim parts in place, and I wanted to use 1/16" acrylic sheet-stock for the tabs, as space is at a premium in the application.

A little research turned up several solvent-adhesives made specifically for bonding acrylics, like Weld-On 4 (liquid) and Weld-On 16 (tube gloo).

The test bonds I made were quite weak initially, but after 24 hours, the plastic tabs broke when over-stressed, but the bonds did not.

Problem solved.

Edited February 23, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[NOBLNG]

  On 2/23/2024 at 2:31 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Liquid "solvent" cement is perfectly adequate for styrene, acrylic, and ABS, assuming you use the right one, and assuming it's used correctly.

Solder is the hot setup for brass.

Fabbing small parts from aluminum reauires a little more care and out-of-the-box thinking, because of aluminum's tendency to form an invisible layer of surface oxidation that interferes with adhesion of most gloo.

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I prefer to use Tamiya Quick setting thin cement wherever possible. Small finicky parts I will pin also if possible. The only drawback to the Tamiya is that even the quickset takes quite a while to gain full strength. Once it does though it should be at least as strong as the styrene itself. After the Tamiya, I sometimes hit the perimeter of the joint with thin CA if I can’t wait.? The CA probably slows the solvent drying even more, but in the long run, it should make for a really strong joint.

[ColonelKrypton]

  On 2/23/2024 at 3:24 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

like Weld-On 4 (liquid) and Weld-On 16 (tube gloo).

The test bonds I made were quite weak initially, but after 24 hours, the plastic tabs broke when over-stressed, but the bonds did not

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I have both and use same. Always a case of one "size" not fitting all applications

  On 2/23/2024 at 4:11 PM, NOBLNG said:

The only drawback to the Tamiya is that even the quickset takes quite a while to gain full strength. Once it does though it should be at least as strong as the styrene itself.

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All solvent cements in fact. I think we can all be a bit impatient at times

Good advice all round.

The National Model Railway Association has a good reference document on adhesives. Published quite some time ago but still relevant:

https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/d1n.pdf

cheers, Graham

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 2/23/2024 at 4:11 PM, NOBLNG said:

The only drawback to the Tamiya is that even the quickset takes quite a while to gain full strength. Once it does though it should be at least as strong as the styrene itself. 

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Any solvent-glooed joint will take time to achieve full strength. The stuff "dries" by evaporation and migration of solvent into the surrounding material. Naturally, evaporation inside a glooed joint doesn't happen very quickly.

  On 2/23/2024 at 4:11 PM, NOBLNG said:

I sometimes hit the perimeter of the joint with thin CA if I can’t wait.

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Yup...but I'll usually use a heavier CA, like Loctite Ultra Gel Control, as it's gap-filling and can be sanded or filed to make nice fillets in small fiddly parts or roll-cage structures. You do need to watch piling on the paint though, as some solvent-based paints can weaken joints.

It's also "rubber toughened" to resist impact or stress breakage after it hardens...which can take some time (full cure in 12-24 hours).

EDIT: It's the only adhesive besides my expensive aircraft epoxy-based products that does a decent job sticking together aluminum and brass parts, but it's imperative to thoroughly sand any surface oxidation off of metals prior to bonding...and I don't mean a quick swipe with sandpaper. I mean thoroughly.

By the time I was 12 or so, I'd realized that hurry-hurry-hurry was not the way to achieve anything approaching quality craftsmanship.  

Edited February 23, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[Straightliner59]

  On 2/23/2024 at 1:58 PM, NOBLNG said:

What do you use for glue when building tiny parts that require the strength to withstand some mild abuse, like steering components?

Thanks, Greg.

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To add, a little to what Bill said--once the spindles are mounted to the axle, they have the added support of the axle, itself. That virtually eliminates any chance of the "tabs" flexing, and weakening the joints. Our models aren't typically in high-stress environments--except during transport.? I also flow a bit of CA over the joints, once the solvent's cured a while. It's worked out, pretty well!

Edited February 24, 2024 by Straightliner59

[Straightliner59]

  On 2/23/2024 at 2:29 PM, ColonelKrypton said:

Brass is strong, perhaps too strong for some tasks, easy to work, can be soldered.

It is not easy to break old habits and break away from old comfortable ways of doing something. I will make it a point of using more plastic tiny bits - nothing ventured, nothing gained and perhaps I will find a new comfortable place with a more hybrid approach. 

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I think it's a lot of fun, to try new techniques. That's why I first attempted a scratchbuilt brass dragster chassis, and why I learned to work sheet aluminum into compound curves. I've thrown a ton of stuff away, that didn't work out. I have a little bin that's marked as a tip of the hat to Burt Munro: Offerings to the gods of scale. My not-so-successful attempts go there, now!?

I guess I don't have any excuse not to attempt to mill a set of spindles, now that I think about it! Hmmm...

[Straightliner59]

  On 2/23/2024 at 4:32 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

EDIT: It's the only adhesive besides my expensive aircraft epoxy-based products that does a decent job sticking together aluminum and brass parts, but it's imperative to thoroughly sand any surface oxidation off of metals prior to bonding...and I don't mean a quick swipe with sandpaper. I mean thoroughly.

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What would your thoughts be, pertaining to, maybe leaving the plastic coating on unexposed, gluing surfaces of the aluminum flashing I use. I've been sanding it off--and, that's necessary for finish work, but, could that coating be an ally, when it comes to adhering the sheet?

[bobss396]

I have been using Hobby Lobby CA glues, man do they set up fast, like zero time to position aluminum to plastic, an instant bond with aluminum to aluminum. The Loctite gel, gives me more time.

Like I have said, I pin almost anything that needs to be strong. I use plastic rod for low-strength, brass and stainless steel and even aluminum tubing for high-strength. In the past I have used pieces of paper clips. Floral wire is real cheap too.

I should look into UV cements. We used them at work on acrylic boxes (for environmental testing) and that set up real fast.

[NOBLNG]

  On 2/24/2024 at 1:17 PM, bobss396 said:

I should look into UV cements. We used them at work on acrylic boxes (for environmental testing) and that set up real fast.

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Are there any true UV “adhesives” that will adhere to the materials we normally use? Something that would rival epoxy or CA? i have only used Bondic and RapidFix…neither of which stick well to smooth hard surfaces.?

[peteski]

  On 2/24/2024 at 1:42 PM, NOBLNG said:

Are there any true UV “adhesives” that will adhere to the materials we normally use? Something that would rival epoxy or CA? i have only used Bondic and RapidFix…neither of which stick well to smooth hard surfaces.?

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Greg, this is actually UV curable CA glue, so it should stick to those surfaces as well as any standard CA glue.

Edited February 25, 2024 by peteski

[ColonelKrypton]

  On 2/25/2024 at 8:43 PM, peteski said:

UV curable CA glue

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That is interesting.  A quick look at my local sources and I couldn't find this particular product. I will have to keep looking

cheers, Graham

[NOBLNG]

  On 2/25/2024 at 8:43 PM, peteski said:

Greg, this is actually UV curable CA glue, so it should stick to those surfaces as well as any standard CA glue.

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Have you had a chance to use it?

[peteski]

  On 2/25/2024 at 10:13 PM, NOBLNG said:

Have you had a chance to use it?

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I used it couple of times (on non-model items).  Smells like CA glue, and when hit with the UV light it sets very fast (like if it was hit with standard CA accelerator).

 

When I was looking for it (on recommendation from a friend), none of the hardware stores seem to carry it. I ended up buying it on eBay.  But I have seen it recently in Lowe's in the adhesives section (in USA).

Edited February 25, 2024 by peteski

[bobss396]

UV JB Weld... whatta game changer. I like the fact that you get a fighting chance to align parts. My experience with zip kickers... ask my vinyl table cloth how that worked out.

[Chinacar]

I'm motivated to try posable steering in my next project!

[Straightliner59]

  On 2/18/2024 at 5:16 PM, ColonelKrypton said:

I am a fan of many of Bill's @Ace-Garageguy postings, particularly all of the many containing how-to's. It is always good to be able to see how someone else has done something as there is always something more to learn or how to improve upon something that you already do.

I recently started a topic on wire gauge number drills and commented that I like to use brass in my builds. My current build is a Revell '29 Ford roadster for which I have made a poseable front using some of Bill's ideas but made primarily from brass. The dropped forged I beam axles is the one from from the kit were the spindles, steering arms, tie rod, king pins - just to name a few of the bits - have been rendered in brass. The steering arms still need to be bent to shape, trimmed to size, and have their ends soldered in place plus there is still a bit of clean up to do before paint; all in good time. 

I thought I would share a few pictures:

 

 

 

Made using 1mm and 1/16 brass tube, 0.020" and 1/32 brass rod, soft soldered with Stay Brite silver bearing solder. 

Something I have found very useful for making small bits is my make do watchmakers lathe. Nothing more than a Foredom #30 handpiece mounted in rifle hardware to mount a tactical flashlight holder which coincidentally had a diameter of 1" ( same as the Foredom ) mounted on a chunk of ( 3/4" ? ) aluminum. I use hand gravers and a number of small blocks of wood as tool rests to turn brass, plastic, and aluminum.

 

I will leave it there for fear of hi-jacking Bill's topic and skewing it off in another direction.

Was there ever a part 2 ( or 3 or ? )?

cheers, Graham

 

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Those spindles  are beautiful, Graham! Excellent innovation in building your jewelers' lathe, as well. I have a set of gravers for my lathe. I never thought of using wood blocks, as tool rests. I'll be giving that a go, for sure. Thanks for sharing!

[ColonelKrypton]

  On 2/27/2024 at 4:16 AM, Straightliner59 said:

Those spindles  are beautiful,

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Thank you for the kind words.

I am still refining my technique - gets better and more refined with every one I make. Of course there is limit, it is nice to try and make something that is as true to the original as possible but size, materials, and time have a moderating effect as does the fact once completed much of the smaller details are hidden or nearly so from sight; still, I know that they are there and that is why I try - the simple pleasure of making.

cheers, Graham

[peteski]

  On 2/26/2024 at 1:39 PM, bobss396 said:

UV JB Weld... whatta game changer. I like the fact that you get a fighting chance to align parts. My experience with zip kickers... ask my vinyl table cloth how that worked out.

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As I mentioned there are several brands of CA accelerator.  When I first started, Zip-Kicker was the only one available.  That one is very aggressive, and IIRC, it is acetone-based so it will attack paint and plastic.  Then at work I found some other industrial use accelerators from Loctite.  Those smelled different from Zip-Kicker, did not attack plastic, and were not as aggressive in setting the glue.  But that was couple of decades ago.  Then I found Bob Smith Industries (BSI) brand line of CA and accelerators.  This accelerator has very low odor and will not instantly attack paint or plastic.  It is also not as aggressive as Zip Kicker (which I ditched). Now it's the only one I use.

But remember that the thinner the CA glue is, the faster it will react to the accelerator.

[Straightliner59]

  On 2/27/2024 at 2:59 PM, ColonelKrypton said:

Thank you for the kind words.

I am still refining my technique - gets better and more refined with every one I make. Of course there is limit, it is nice to try and make something that is as true to the original as possible but size, materials, and time have a moderating effect as does the fact once completed much of the smaller details are hidden or nearly so from sight; still, I know that they are there and that is why I try - the simple pleasure of making.

cheers, Graham

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That "simple pleasure of making" is the biggest reason I do it--whether anybody can see it, or not!