Tamiya TS lacquers

[cobramike]

I just read this and am wondering if this info is correct, It's from Tamiya in it's product description on  "MEGA HOBBY".
 "Tamiya spray paints are not affected by acrylic or enamel paints. Therefore, following the painting of the entire assembly, details can be added or picked out using enamel and/or acrylic paints"!
I am under the understanding that one cannot MIX other kinds of paint over or under LACQUER'S.  If I am getting the wrong info on this can someone please set me straight?  
https://www.megahobby.com/categories/paint-store/tamiya-paints.html

[aurfalien]

Hi,

Well I've painted lacquer based paints (Tamiya) over arcylics (Vallejo) w/o issue.

I'd probably go on Tamiyas site for further clarification and even send them an email.  There support is top rate.

 

 

[my66s55]

Under lacquers no. Over lacquers yes.

[porschercr]

Lacquer, Enamel, Acrylic (LEA)

Any other way, your looking for disaster.

[Pete J.]

This is my stock answer.  The strength of the solvent generally determines what goes over and under.  Stronger solvent goes on the bottom.  Acrylic solvent- Alcohol(weakest)(though most will try to convince you that it is water), then enamel- naphtha, then Lacquer - lacquer thinner(strongest).  Now this is an absolute generality and no guarantee that it will work because different companies use different concentrations of chemicals to make their paint.  The other problem you can have is a difference in shrinkage rates between paints.  That is when you get the wrinkling and that is an entirely different problem. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pete J.

[Matt Bacon]

Not helped, of course, by Tamiya describing their TS sprays as acrylics... They are “hot”, and will certainly craze or eat away anything underneath except primer or another TS spray. The other way around, you can paint any Tamiya acrylic that comes in a pot and thins with water or X-20A over the top. It can be tricky to get the acrylic to “wet” the shiny surface of the cured spray paintjob, so I tend to mask and airbrush the acrylics using very light mist coats to start with to build up a “key”...

 

best,

M

[aurfalien]

Not helped, of course, by Tamiya describing their TS sprays as acrylics... They are “hot”, and will certainly craze or eat away anything underneath except primer or another TS spray. The other way around, you can paint any Tamiya acrylic that comes in a pot and thins with water or X-20A over the top. It can be tricky to get the acrylic to “wet” the shiny surface of the cured spray paintjob, so I tend to mask and airbrush the acrylics using very light mist coats to start with to build up a “key”...

 

best,

M

Hi,

I'm tellin ya, if properly dried, as in a week or so, nothing is eating away at Vallejo.  In fact it's a real bear to strip.

[peteski]

Not helped, of course, by Tamiya describing their TS sprays as acrylics... They are “hot”, and will certainly craze or eat away anything underneath except primer or another TS spray. The other way around, you can paint any Tamiya acrylic that comes in a pot and thins with water or X-20A over the top. It can be tricky to get the acrylic to “wet” the shiny surface of the cured spray paintjob, so I tend to mask and airbrush the acrylics using very light mist coats to start with to build up a “key”...

 

best,

M

Some modelers, years ago, started this silly (and incorrect) usage of the term "acrylic" to mean "water-based acrylic enamel".  For some reason that stuck and now everybody is now misusing the term "acrylic". I'm no paint chemist but I educated myself a bit about paints (since I use them in my hobby).  For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint some good basic theory and terms.

Paint consists of the pigment (color), binder (the resin which hods the pigment and also adheres to the painted surface), and solvent/vehicle (the liquid which evaporates).  The solvent in both, lacquers and enamels evaporates, allowing the binder to dry on the painted surface. That is where the difference between lacquer and enamel comes in. The dry binder in lacquer can be redissolved by applying solvent over it. But the binder in enamels, after it is dry, continues to change (harden or set) chemically. Usually that change is caused by exposure to oxygen. Once fully hardened, the binder in enamel paints will not redissolve when exposed to the solvents.  It will soften, but will not re-liquify. It will wrinkle and come off in sheets.

If you have some lacquer which thickened in the bottle (because the solvent evaporated) you can add more solvent and the lacquer is usable. But if the same thing happens to enamel paint and oxygen also gets in the bottle  you end up with a jelly-like mess and no amount of solvent will bring the enamel paint back to usable state.

Enough of the chemistry lesson. What bugs me is that modelers keep using the term "acrylics" for any of the "water-soluble" enamels. Why? Because the acrylic resin can also be used as a binder in organic-solvent-based (the stinky and bad for you kind) lacquers and enamels. There are many different binders (like urethane, acrylic, or other resins) which can be used in both water-based-solvent, and organic-solvent-based paints and enamels.  So every time I see modelers assume that acrylic means water-based enamel.  I wish people were more educated and used more accurate terminology.

The "hot" and "cold" paints is also a broad generalization, but I can live with that.

Here - I feel better now!

Edited October 5, 2017 by peteski

[Pete J.]

Some modelers, years ago, started this silly (and incorrect) usage of the term "acrylic" to mean "water-based acrylic enamel".  For some reason that stuck and now everybody is now misusing the term "acrylic". I'm no paint chemist but I educated myself a bit about paints (since I use them in my hobby).  For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint some good basic theory and terms.

Paint consists of the pigment (color), binder (the resin which hods the pigment and also adheres to the painted surface), and solvent/vehicle (the liquid which evaporates).  The solvent in both, lacquers and enamels evaporates, allowing the binder to dry on the painted surface. That is where the difference between lacquer and enamel comes in. The dry binder in lacquer can be redissolved by applying solvent over it. But the binder in enamels, after it is dry, continues to change (harden or set) chemically. Usually that change is caused by exposure to oxygen. Once fully hardened, the binder in enamel paints will not redissolve when exposed to the solvents.  It will soften, but will not re-liquify. It will wrinkle and come off in sheets.

If you have some lacquer which thickened in the bottle (because the solvent evaporated) you can add more solvent and the lacquer is usable. But if the same thing happens to enamel paint and oxygen also gets in the bottle  you end up with a jelly-like mess and no amount of solvent will bring the enamel paint back to usable state.

Enough of the chemistry lesson. What bugs me is that modelers keep using the term "acrylics" for any of the "water-soluble" enamels. Why? Because the acrylic resin can also be used as a binder in organic-solvent-based (the stinky and bad for you kind) lacquers and enamels. There are many different binders (like urethane, acrylic, or other resins) which can be used in both water-based-solvent, and organic-solvent-based paints and enamels.  So every time I see modelers assume that acrylic means water-based enamel.  I wish people were more educated and used more accurate terminology.

The "hot" and "cold" paints is also a broad generalization, but I can live with that.

Here - I feel better now!

Absolutely agree about the 'acrylic" term.  Not long ago, I had a paint chemist correct me on this and actually "acrylic"  is a long chain polymer that is added to paints to increase the durability of the paint.  I remember way back in the day that Earl Shibe(Any car, any color $39.99) use to charge you an extra $5 to add it to your paint.  He took a small vial of the additive and dumped it in the gallons of paint he used to paint your care.  Unfortunately, we misapplied the term and are kind of stuck with it.  By the way, Tamiya is absolutely correct in labeling their paint as acrylic lacquer.  The old lacquers were nitrocellulose lacquers.