regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 " I had thought they would have come out with a couple of new tooling kits each year by now. " My frustration with them is this. About this cost of "new tooling". Let's say they have most of the body parts for the AMT XR-6. They are missing let's say one piece of body. I kept being told "The cost is enormous to run off that one part.So we are just going to sit on whole kit." Run off the body parts with ONE new part you had to make. Sell it in a plastic bag for whatever. Advanced modeler's can come up with another chassis and the rest.
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 Some actual factual knowledge of how injection-molding tools are made, and how they function during the molding process, is always useful to have when indulging in the endless they-should-do-this-or-that opinions. Costs are often overstated by some manufacturers as excuses, but costs CAN be prohibitive if the company doesn't have hands-on machinists and toolmakers with a can-do attitude on staff. And all dies are not compatible with all injection molding machines. Again, knowledge of the subject is a big plus when discussing it, or criticizing.
Justin Porter Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 Lots of supposition and speculation that adds up to nothing. If at any point the XR-6 justified the cost of the tooling AMT would have invested in either new tooling OR even a brand new kit as they did of Ala Kart. Look at what IS justifying new tooling. The two domestic kit companies that are spending money on new tooling are spending it on primarily factory stock kits of passenger cars from the 50's to the 70's. The near dozen foreign kit companies which are doing far more new tooling than the domestics have been focusing on modern supercars and vintage racing cars. The buying public has voted with their wallets and they aren't voting for 55 year old street rods.
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Justin Porter said: ... The buying public has voted with their wallets and they aren't voting for 55 year old street rods. Very true, and in the case of the XR-6, anybody who really wants one can find one. Though a little spendy, they're not in the stratosphere yet. The vast majority of modelers working today probably don't even know what it is, and wouldn't be interested much even if they did. I have two.
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) " doesn't have hands-on machinists and toolmakers with a can-do attitude on staff. " Maybe they do and maybe they don't. They do? Lindberg Serpent Made in USA. MPC Titan rocket Made in USA. They don't. Was told on phone "Factory is in China" Point and click send by email offshore "engineering" . Inferior to American engineering unless you just want a brainless copy of something. Edited November 9, 2018 by regular guy
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) They need to kick it in gear making hard to find parts sold in plain wrap plastic bags or plain white box. Case in point. '27 Ford touring. Just the body please. And the overhead valve cylinder head. We can use a T engine out of some other kit. They need to sell the hotrod engines separate too. Ford Y block. Buick nailhead and whatever the other are. They could call it "Kat's Korner" for the advanced modeler. Like "Kat's Collection". They should send me half a dozen kits for this free consultation. Edited November 9, 2018 by regular guy
Justin Porter Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, regular guy said: They need to kick it in gear making hard to find parts sold in plain wrap plastic bags or plain white box. That's what resin casters are for.
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 And another thing. I think we need to define advanced modeler. I mean guys that can make parts that don't exist from existing parts or scratch. Then there is the other kind of advanced modeler who does a professional grade build like he works for George Lucas or something but couldn't make a simple bucket t frame from scratch to save his life. There! That should clear that up!
Force Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, regular guy said: They need to kick it in gear making hard to find parts sold in plain wrap plastic bags or plain white box. Case in point. '27 Ford touring. Just he body please. And the overhead valve cylinder head. We can use a T engine out of some other kit. They need to sell the hotrod engines separate too. Ford Y block. Buick nailhead and whatever the other are. They could call it "Kat's Korner" for the advanced modeler. Like "Kat's Collection". They should send me half a dozen kits for this free consultation. The injection molding process doesn't work like that, the tools for injection molding has a lot more than for example an engine so they will waste a lot of plastic just to do the engine, yes they could maybe block off the runners to the other things on the tool but I don't think they will put in the work to do that just to do for example an engine, a body or whatever. The parts for engines are often on several trees, both plated and unplated and that doesn't make it any easier to do just engine kits from a complete tool. And if there were demand for engines the Revell and AMT parts pack engines would have sold more than they did. Edited November 9, 2018 by Force
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 " And if there were demand for engines the Revell and AMT parts pack engines would have sold more than they did. " Guys on Ebay sell partial stuff. I guess they are on the same wavelength I am. I used to be annoyed running across their listings. "I'm looking for the whole kit". Now I get what they are up to. So you just search "AMT Ford Y block engine" for example. Voila! You get the engine.
Force Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) Yes, but at what price...if you buy all the parts from a kit parted out on ebay you will end up paying a lot more than what a complete kit costs, more like two or three. If the model manufacturers did partial kits the cost would be even more. Maybe you should read up on how the injection molding process works, what they use and how the model parts are made, after that maybe you will realize that it isn't that easy. Edited November 9, 2018 by Force
Dave Darby Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, regular guy said: " And if there were demand for engines the Revell and AMT parts pack engines would have sold more than they did. " Guys on Ebay sell partial stuff. I guess they are on the same wavelength I am. I used to be annoyed running across their listings. "I'm looking for the whole kit". Now I get what they are up to. So you just search "AMT Ford Y block engine" for example. Voila! You get the engine. Ebay and retail outlets are two very different things. Just like cleaning out your stash differs from cutting molds and cranking out mass production.
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 " I have two. " I put ad in Parts Wanted for XR-6 body parts or junk build. If you got one of those we can deal.
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 " Yes, but at what price...if you buy all the parts from a kit parted out on ebay " Don't want ALL the parts. For example. Just get Pontiac 421 and put it in '32 Ford or bucket T. " Ebay and retail outlets are two very different things. Just like cleaning out your stash differs from cutting molds and cranking out mass production. " Can't argue with that. I am just saying they ought to do something for the Advanced modeler. "Kat's Korner" I think that is the way to go. Meanwhile. I will be doing some now better informed shopping on Ebay.
Mr. Metallic Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Force said: Maybe you should read up on how the injection molding process works, what they use and how the model parts are made, after that maybe you will realize that it isn't that easy. nevermind. I wrote something else but don't want to be reported for being "mean" to the OP of this thread. As always, both entertaining and maddening at the same time Edited November 9, 2018 by Mr. Metallic
dodgefever Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, regular guy said: They need to kick it in gear making hard to find parts sold in plain wrap plastic bags or plain white box. Case in point. '27 Ford touring. Just the body please. And the overhead valve cylinder head. We can use a T engine out of some other kit. They need to sell the hotrod engines separate too. Ford Y block. Buick nailhead and whatever the other are. They could call it "Kat's Korner" for the advanced modeler. Like "Kat's Collection". They should send me half a dozen kits for this free consultation. Against my better judgement, I find myself reeled in again... The AMT '27 touring kit has been reissued multiple times and still includes the Frontenac parts. If you only want the body, there's the Revell kit too. Both can be found easily on Ebay. As for moulding and selling parts piecemeal, as others have pointed out, injeciton moulding doesn't work like that.
Jantrix Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) Lets put this into visual perspective. It's one thing to be told, and other to see. These are two halves of the molds used for making plastic parts. These are 18"(ish) square and weight several hundred pounds. Machining a set of these is staggeringly expensive and time consuming. There are mechanical parts, tiny ejector pins to push the parts out of the mold, and channels for the molten plastic to be pushed in. All this, and it must be built robustly enough for these molds to spit out a part every few seconds. This is why kit's from the 50's and 60's are still repopped with lots of flash from worn out molds. Because it's just so expensive to replace them. So you can imagine why they just don't go making up new molds for parts that only a small portion of the modeling community would be interested in. The only thing that makes model kit's still lucrative is by knowing your market and your customer base. Revell has been giving us the kits that us 40+ types really want, because we are now their target consumer. And it has worked very well. Round 2 is trying to do the same in thier own way, and I for one have been happy with their offerings. Caveat: I'm not an expert in injection molding and don't claim to be. I have limited experience running the machines from a previous employer. I just thought some photos would provide clarity. Edited November 9, 2018 by Jantrix
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 " So you can imagine why they just don't go making up new molds for parts that only a small portion of the modeling community would be interested in." Okay. Here is a possible solution. A partner ship between AMT and a model maker resin caster. A model maker is the one who makes the original part. 1 AMT sends over what they have. Parts or spec's. 2 Parts get made. 3 Resin caster runs off small production run. 4 Sends them back to AMT. 5 They sell them as licensed resin parts. Where do I send the bill for this expert consulting fee? Buick and Olds engines for hotrods would be nice.
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 Add to that the facts that, for instance, the T kits with the Frontenac option are available all day long on eBay for exactly what you'd pay for a new one (or less) if they were to be repopped, the fact that many of us have "stashes" of partial kits and parts just to pick from, and the additional fact that there is an active traders section here where anyone can get pretty much whatever they want (partswise...unless it's really rare or obscure) with a few mouse-clicks and PMs...well, it just doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense to offer individual parts that the vast majority of builders would have no interest in. As a matter of fact, there's a T with both the body and the Frontenac engine, and everything else, up for $15 + $8 shipping, right now. It can be yours.
bobthehobbyguy Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) Besides the fact that the the limitations of injection modeling does not lend itself to doing only part of a kit there is the financial aspect. Even if parts could be made individually there are costs for packaging. In the end its really cheaper to buy a whole kit and trade or sell the ramaining. Adding a resin caster to the process would be as equally cost prohibitive. Again its cheaper to buy a complete kit. Edited November 9, 2018 by bobthehobbyguy
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, regular guy said: " So you can imagine why they just don't go making up new molds for parts that only a small portion of the modeling community would be interested in." Okay. Here is a possible solution. A partner ship between AMT and a model maker resin caster. A model maker is the one who makes the original part. 1 AMT sends over what they have. Parts or spec's. 2 Parts get made. 3 Resin caster runs off small production run. 4 Sends them back to AMT. 5 They sell them as licensed resin parts. Where do I send the bill for this expert consulting fee? Buick and Olds engines for hotrods would be nice. Any resin caster can make molds from and copy any existing plastic or resin part very easily without any monkey-motion of sending stuff back and forth. All it would take is a few emails back and forth between the license holders and the caster to get permissions, and it's a done deal. You can send MY consulting fee to MCM.
Mr. Metallic Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, regular guy said: Okay. Here is a possible solution. A partner ship between AMT and a model maker resin caster. A model maker is the one who makes the original part. 1 AMT sends over what they have. Parts or spec's. 2 Parts get made. 3 Resin caster runs off small production run. 4 Sends them back to AMT. Ok, this could prove useful, in theory. Not as you describe as AMT getting into essentially being a retailer for a resin company. But, it could prove useful in resurrecting incomplete kits in their inventory, on a small scale. There is a precedent for this already. Back in the late 90's Revell wanted to reissue the Orange Crate 32 Ford, but had modified the tooling for the hood in the 80's and didn't want to spend the money to retool it back to original. So, they had a resin caster cast up the hood for them, and they included it in the kit. Theoretically, Round2 could do something similar if they had tooling that only had a couple missing parts. Anything beyond that would become cost prohibitive. Here's the contents of the Orange Crate, showing the resin hood (which was actually brought back in plastic form for the most recent issue) Now, why do I get the sneaking suspicion that by responding to this it's going to send it spiraling off into a new craziness?
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Mr. Metallic said: ...Now, why do I get the sneaking suspicion that by responding to this it's going to send it spiraling off into a new craziness? That's always a very real possibility. That resin hood is a pretty nice part, too. Very thin, as thin as the styrene part it replaced.
regular guy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) " As a matter of fact, there's a T with both the body and the Frontenac engine, and everything else, up for $15 + $8 shipping, right now. It can be yours. " Thanks. Getting hip to Parts forum here and Ebay parts NOT whole kits. Yes. Whole kits might work out better in some cases. " Ok, this could prove useful, in theory. Not as you describe as AMT getting into essentially being a retailer for a resin company. But, it could prove useful in resurrecting incomplete kits in their inventory, on a small scale. " I'm saying start up a "Kat's Korner", Blueprinter Club, Prestige Builder club or whatever you want to call it. For small parts or custom color molded in bodies and other specialty parts. Give the Advanced modeler of either kind some recognition from AMT. Put out the hotrod frames by themselves. Model T or 32 Ford. Dragster frames. Funny car frames. Just takes the okay from them. But the being carried in special section of Autoworld would be good. Advaced builder that can modify parts or make them and Advanced builder that does super nice job building kit. Edited November 9, 2018 by regular guy
Dave Darby Posted November 9, 2018 Posted November 9, 2018 On 11/7/2018 at 2:40 PM, Justin Porter said: I'm honestly a little confounded as to why someone would want the AMT Deuce back in production as opposed to the Revell given its "sectioned from the factory" body proportions and archaic suspension detail. That it is, but it's a blast from the past to build, gives you multiple building options, and the oh so cool retro factor.
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