What an axle bearing on a railroad freight car does when it fails...

[Ace-Garageguy]

This has been in the news lately, and these things happen fairly frequently...though usually without the dramatic consequences of the Palestine, Ohio event.

If these big roller bearings run dry and overheat, they fail catastrophically pretty quick even at low speeds because the loading is so high.

When you consider that cheap cars now often come with four wireless sensors that report tire pressures to the vehicle's computer to display dash warnings, you'd think (at least I would) that similar low-cost technology would be implemented to monitor bearing temps on railroad cars...especially when the potential costs from a failure are so high.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[espo]

Only source of info that I have heard on the 10pm news, but something they mentioned that sounded interesting. The talking head was telling about the rails have temperature sensors at different points along the rails that would sense the wheel temperature and depending on how hot the rails sensed the wheels being they would transmit to the train's engineer a warning if the temperature was over a preset amount. The story line was that the sensors had warned of a high temp situation, but the final warning was at a point where it was impassable for the engineer to stop the train in time. My thought is that if these sensors are adjustable as the talking head stated, why are they not set at a temperature that would allow them to stop the train?

[Dave Van]

The OHIO derailment started with a hot box detector going off. (from the reading I've done) The NS crew decided to try and make it to PA before inspecting and/or setting out the rail car with the bad bearing.  If that is true, that they did not even stop and inspect the Hot Box report......it's all on the NS crew. Sounds like they violated a number of rules and laws. 

I have a number of family and friends in the rail industry. Our family has been in the biz in many form for over 100 years. It is a VERY hard job. I understand it better than many of the 'Experts' making calls today. But if this crew did as it is being reported.......100% negligence on the part of NS and that crew. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, espo said:

...My thought is that if these sensors are adjustable as the talking head stated, why are they not set at a temperature that would allow them to stop the train?

The reason I posted this particular video...if you actually watch it and pay attention, the fella who made the video works for a small short-line railroad. They apparently are such a small railroad, their length of trackage only justifies having ONE "hot box" detector. 

The guy comments that there was a hot-box signal, still well within safe limits, but in just a few miles, the bearing had overheated to total failure, as shown, taking out the axle and derailing the car. And the train in the video here was running SLOW, on old recycled rail, as short-line trackage often is.

What these two incidents are saying to me, having a whole lot of experience with various types of bearing failures, is that it looks like there aren't enough detectors, or the detectors may not be close enough together. Once a bearing is "dry", its temperature can rise so fast that a catastrophic failure can occur between one detector reporting "slightly elevated" temperatures and the next one...which would leave the crew thinking they had time to get to a siding to do a physical inspection or set the bad-order car out.

My point is that, if I were a senior engineer or official in the railroad industry (or regulatory agency), I'd be commissioning a study to look into the viability of developing cheap bearing temperature monitors ATTACHED TO EACH RAILROAD CAR to monitor EVERY BEARING, ON EVERY RAILROAD CAR, CONTINUOUSLY.

As I wrote above, relatively inexpensive wireless tire pressure sensors come on most road vehicles now, and configuring a wireless sensor to monitor temperature rather than pressure is easy...especially when the sensors could be statically mounted to the frame of a freight car. It's a lot trickier to have a sensor as part of a road-car valve stem that rotates with the tire. Sonic detectors are another option, as a bearing failing most likely makes an easily identifiable sound...and computers are very very good at sorting through random "noise" to pinpoint a particular frequency range and amplitude.

We already have sufficient technology available to fast-track a continuous bearing temp monitoring system (with fail-safe redundancy) from mostly off-the-shelf parts, with the on-train system reporting to a simple engineer's phone app in the cab of the lead locomotive, or patched into the existing locomotive control software.

If mass-produced, I'd think a continuous bearing temp (or sonic) monitoring system could be developed to come in at a few hundred dollars per rail car...and if implemented system-wide, it would probably be cheaper than the ultimate cost of the single Ohio derailment will end up being to NS, the shippers, the insurance companies, and the affected residents.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Dave Van said:

Our family has been in the biz in many form for over 100 years. It is a VERY hard job. I understand it better than many of the 'Experts' making calls today. But if this crew did as it is being reported.......100% negligence on the part of NS and that crew. 

I respect that.

I have no family or close friends in the business, but I've been a rail enthusiast longer than I've been into cars, still read a good bit about the industry, and understand the workings of the equipment and systems.

A short-line railroad operated by Patriot Rail runs past my current house, about 60 feet from my door, and seeing the frequent movements tends to keep me interested in the railroad industry, the machinery, and the technology.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I agree with you Bill. But if they spent money ln frivolous things like that they wouldn't be able to do things like a 6.5 billion dollar stock buyback and the stock holders wouldn't be very happy! 

Edited February 27, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

More info about detectors...

 

[Brian Austin]

This page has a fun picture of an old-fashioned friction-bearing hotbox.  Shows you the origin of the term.  🙂

http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2015/02/friction-bearings.html

[Dave Van]

If you watch any of the Youtube 'train watching'  videos, most of them run the railroads radio traffic and you can hear the robot voice announce the number of axles it detected and weather any were HOT. The crew knows how many axles they are pulling and all this must match to each Hot Box announcement. It's pretty automated and fool proof. When the final NTSB report comes out I'd not want to be that crew. 

[espo]

19 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

More info about detectors...

 

Thank you for the additional information on the sensors. This has given me a far better understanding of how exactly the systems work as well as the possibility of false readings. I do like your idea of having a system on board the train to possibly alert the operator when there is an issue. 

[Little Timmy]

Train derailment caused Monogram moulds to dissapear...

I vote for MORE Safty equipment, and maybe a little more common sense on the part played by the crew.

 

[OldTrucker]

According to a friend with a major rail carrier, dispatch gets the signal and makes the deciscision and radios the crew.

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

I'll wait for the official report before I pass judgement. Too much speculation going around. Plus the official report has access to all the facts. When that air show crash happen a while back the cause wasn't what everyone thought happened.

[Mike 1017]

My grandfather worked for the railroad back in 1930. His job was inspecting the whole carriage assembly doing repairs and inspections. The job that he hated the most was greasing the wheel bearings. Go figure. I wonder what he would have to say about the accident and the railroad industry today.

My grandmother received Railroad Union Pension checks to the day that she died. 

Mike

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Mike 1017 said:

My grandfather worked for the railroad back in 1930. His job was inspecting the whole carriage assembly doing repairs and inspections. The job that he hated the most was greasing the wheel bearings...

Very interesting.

Railroads and bearing manufacturers have been working to reduce required maintenance, and even the expense of bearing lubricants, for many decades.

Roller bearings were a great improvement, dramatically reducing the incidence of "hot box" problems.

The fairly recent trend to permanently sealed roller bearings further reduces maintenance and amount of lubricant required.

One unfortunate side effect of sealed axle bearings we see on cars is that, as there's not much lube inside the sealed housing to start with, if the seal fails, it doesn't take much time for the bearing to run dry, overheat, and fail completely.

The old-school tapered roller bearings on older road vehicles will last many hundreds of thousands of miles if they're cleaned and re-greased at appropriate intervals, while those on older live rear axles receive plenty of lubrication from the gear oil in the housing, and tend to last almost forever as well.

But on later model cars with sealed-for-life axle bearings, we often see failures well before 100,000 miles, sometimes as early as 30,000 miles, and depending on the source, aftermarket bearings frequently don't even last that long.

(One project I consulted on was the aftermarket conversion of the DeTomaso Pantera rear hubs from failure-prone sealed-for-life ball bearings to serviceable Timken and SKF tapered rollers. One thing I really enjoyed about working as an engineering "consultant" was the frequent exposure to problems I wasn't very familiar with, and the opportunity to learn about a wide variety of mechanical and electronic subjects.)

Back to trains...with the push to constantly reduce railroad operating costs by cutting personnel and maintenance, it would be good to have more capable bearing temperature monitoring systems than are apparently the norm, as it could be argued that a railcar axle bearing is the single most mission-critical part of the entire train from a safety standpoint.

But hey...I'm just an old know-it-all.  

https://evolution.skf.com/the-evolution-of-railway-axlebox-technology/

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

Unfortunately as long as the cost to clean up a mess is cheaper than preventing it we will continue to have the problem. That's the current mentality unfortunely.

[Ace-Garageguy]

46 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Unfortunately as long as the cost to clean up a mess is cheaper than preventing it we will continue to have the problem.

The cost of preventing it doesn't have to be all that high.

But endless dithering, "studies", "committee investigations", and new regulations that "increase oversight" by people and agencies who know nothing about physical hardware...well, you get the point.

And the final cost of the recent Ohio mess will likely run pretty damm high...especially if there end up being long-term health effects (dioxin exposure, etc.) and related lawsuits.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/03/03/ohio-train-derailment-toxic-dioxin-test-east-palestine/11389432002/

Edited March 5, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

I agree. However that's not how those in charge think regarding the cost of a disaster cleanup.

It's bad enough that there is less people and time for inspections but when you compound that with longer trains you are increasing the risk of disaster.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I see that  the same railroad had another derailment in Ohio. However there were no hazardous cars and the impact was less catastrophic.  Obviously the system is broken.

 

[OldTrucker]

Cutting back on crews plays a lot into this along with poor maintenance practices.

Time to return human eyes at the end of a train and physical checks while stopped.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Another derailment (the third in last month) for Norfolk. Fortunately no hazardous materials however will the next one be so lucky.

Edited March 10, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy
Added thought

[meoirosiosi]

This Ohio derailment got me sweating like a greased axle in July. Bearings seizing like popcorn kernels? Yeah, not cool. We're talking about metal behemoths careening off the tracks, spewing fire, and leaving scars on the land! And  click this with cars sporting fancy tire pressure sensors, you'd think these giants on steel could get some basic temp monitoring, too.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, meoirosiosi said:

This Ohio derailment got me sweating like a greased axle in July. Bearings seizing like popcorn kernels? Yeah, not cool. We're talking about metal behemoths careening off the tracks, spewing fire, and leaving scars on the land! And  click this with cars sporting fancy tire pressure sensors, you'd think these giants on steel could get some basic temp monitoring, too.

A quote from that article: 

"The main observation when inspecting the head of the rivet is that the position is not correct. Welding quality. There is no welding or there is no welding, but the problem is caused by a solid ball card. Bearing testing is a process that requires extra attention. Several other issues need to be addressed.

"I would like to share my experience of many years in bearing testing locally. First, the bearing should be inspected in an environment that is bright and has good astigmatism. This will allow the bearing to be observed better and ensure the surface of the bearing does not have any cracks or other abnormalities. The bearing equipment can be displaced by cloud-like wear, scratches and touch pressure. This will lead to poor positioning of the equipment, which results in a flat bearing shape, stress and load concentration and reduced accuracy.

Rust is not only a result of pollutants in the water or working environment, but also leads to poor bearing installation and premature wear. It will eventually lead to serious scrap. Special attention should be given to the water’s moisturizing properties."

Gibberish translation, almost random "technical sounding" words, not very inspiring.

Anyway, yes, the tech exists to do relatively cheap every-RR-bearing-temperature-monitored-24-7.

But going into why it hasn't been done already is verboten.

Edited January 24 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobss396]

My son works for the NYC MTA, in the Coney Island Brooklyn yard. He works on wheels and axles for passenger trains and subways, these axles are very heavy duty. They have something around a 6000-ton press they use all the time. It recently broke and his group had to be reassigned while it was under repair, waiting on parts.

[NYLIBUD]

Love trains since i’m a kid,but dam they can scare the hell outta you.