A simple illustration of differences in automotive engineering philosophies...

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[lucky 130]

Engineers, design things, they don't have to work on or repair what ever you can think of. I'm not just refering to automotive products.

[Ace-Garageguy]

4 minutes ago, lucky 130 said:

Engineers, design things, they don't have to work on or repair what ever you can think of. I'm not just refering to automotive products.

Did you see how the Toyota cabin filter is so easy to access?

GOOD engineers design in serviceability. 

That, however, seems to be an idea that's become obsolete almost everywhere.

[1972coronet]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

GOOD engineers design in serviceability.

I haven't watched & listened to the video yet ; however, I felt compelled to share my thoughts. 

I believe that it's the (dreaded) bean counters who have the final say in the proposals. Engineers can submit many proposals - some good, some awful - and have their best works rejected due to cost. 
Certainly, there are assembly line concessions ( look at replacement hoses - seldom do they resemble the factory routing... an assembly concession ), but that can't be the only consideration. 

In regard to my current whip - that "blah-blah-blah" plastic composite intake manifold is the weakest link on an otherwise fantastic engine ( 4,6 Modular V8 ). The aluminium-cast intakes are so expensive , as they were produced only for the Bullitt edition, and maybe the Cobra and GT 40 , though I believe that the latter two are the 5,4 engine - different heads.
I have to replace that P.O.S. intake soon, as 21 years of heat-cool cycles have taken their toll - presuming that it hasn't already been replaced a time or seven already. I already have the intake which is sold through Summit ; a made in the USA "rebranded" OEM intake.

But, I digress...

Bean counters are the death knell. 

[PappyD340]

Ridiculous!!

[johnyrotten]

Six hours labor for a twenty dollar filter, plus the possibility of damaged panels/parts. That's how they get ya. My 2012 gmc doesn't even have a cabin filter, you gotta mod the heater box for the previous generations filter. Pay more for less in that situation. 

[Jim N]

The profit center of a car dealership is the service center.  I firmly believe that many cars are designed so that the consumer is almost required to take the car to the dealer for the most basic of repairs or maintenance.

[espo]

Same issue on my wife's Jeep Cherokee. Not has difficult as the Toyota in the video but you still have to disassemble the side of the consol just to find the filter and the clips that hold it in place are very susceptible to breakage and the edges of the interior panels and the latches will cause physical injury to your hands. Wish the mentioned so-called engineers were sitting on a feather and I had their money instead. 

[mcs1056]

Cursing engineers is nothing new. 

If you ever had to rig the flap cables on an old LearJet...two hands AND a tensiometer through a tiny access panel in the wing...then trying to get that tool onto the cable properly...then trying to flip the tool lever to take the tension reading...then seeing that the only way to get the tool on the cable was to put it on upside-down SO YOU CAN'T READ THE TENSION. At least your hands came out bleeding. 

Oh well. Lears were fast and cool-looking.

[Ace-Garageguy]

14 hours ago, espo said:

Same issue on my wife's Jeep Cherokee. Not has difficult as the Toyota in the video but you still have to disassemble the side of the consol just to find the filter and the clips that hold it in place are very susceptible to breakage and the edges of the interior panels and the latches will cause physical injury to your hands. Wish the mentioned so-called engineers were sitting on a feather and I had their money instead. 

The poorly designed car that takes significant disassembly to change a cabin filter in the video is a Lincoln.

The car that allows the filter to be changed in seconds is a Toyota.

[Carmak]

On 6/8/2025 at 1:50 PM, 1972coronet said:

 I believe that it's the (dreaded) bean counters who have the final say in the proposals. Engineers can submit many proposals - some good, some awful - and have their best works rejected due to cost. 
Certainly, there are assembly line concessions ( look at replacement hoses - seldom do they resemble the factory routing... an assembly concession ), but that can't be the only consideration. 

So, I am a design engineer at a medical device company. While I would never say engineers should be without blame, I would say you need to walk a mile in our shoes to appreciate the world we work in.

Just some of our typical challenges are: Component cost, Assembly cost, Weight, Component interaction, External and internal envelopes (the space available), Fastener visibility, Serviceability, Lifecycle.

Toyotas are designed to be serviced by car owners (who are frugal). Lincolns are designed to be serviced by technicians for customers that are perceived to be affluent. The Lincoln air filter is not bad engineering, it is an intentional decision by management.

On the topic of the Ford plastic intake manifold, Ford might be the best at designing vehicles that last to the third owner and then fail on multiple levels. They study the market carefully, so their cars satisfy the original buyer and are reliable enough to command good prices as a late model used car. Once they get to a third or fourth owner there is no value to Ford if the vehicle is reliable.

[1972coronet]

8 hours ago, Carmak said:

On the topic of the Ford plastic intake manifold, Ford might be the best at designing vehicles that last to the third owner and then fail on multiple levels. They study the market carefully, so their cars satisfy the original buyer and are reliable enough to command good prices as a late model used car. Once they get to a third or fourth owner there is no value to Ford if the vehicle is reliable.

Thank you, firstly, for your input in your reply.

Well, I guess that I'm at least the 3rd or 4th owner of my Crown Victoria ( haha ). First was the California Highway Patrol ; then it went to Inglewood , Ca. , P.D. for a couple of years; then to the guy I'd purchased it from ; then to yours truly. 
129,165 hard miles on it when I bought it four years ago - 153,000 on it now (well-maintained miles in my hands), and zero big problems ( honestly, I don't consider the intake manifold to be a big problem).

[Carmak]

12 hours ago, 1972coronet said:

Thank you, firstly, for your input in your reply.

Well, I guess that I'm at least the 3rd or 4th owner of my Crown Victoria ( haha ). First was the California Highway Patrol ; then it went to Inglewood , Ca. , P.D. for a couple of years; then to the guy I'd purchased it from ; then to yours truly. 
129,165 hard miles on it when I bought it four years ago - 153,000 on it now (well-maintained miles in my hands), and zero big problems ( honestly, I don't consider the intake manifold to be a big problem).

I would say Fords big cars and specifically commercial cars are an exception. I am speaking of car like the Focus and Escape. I know someone with a very high mile Escape so there are exceptions to that as well.

[dmthamade]

Have to say, the big Ford/Lincoln/Mercury boats of the era were pretty nice cars. Didn't see a lot of problems with them, just typical stuff. The intakes were a problem, splitting open on the coolant  crossover and puking coolant all over. 

 

Don

[tim boyd]

Interesting thread. 

Car engineers are faced with many competing priorities much the same as those characterized by Craig above. 

But on top of those they must contain many competing priorities from governmental legislation, and not just single governments but political entities across the world. Then add on NGOs like the insurance, safety and anti-petroleum lobbies and their agendas.  Some of the resulting requirements are exceedingly poorly envisioned and driven by political considerations rather than what is truly best for the customer and the world.  They often overlap and compete against each other and require sub-optimal results.  So much of what people complain about automobiles today is the result of factors the automakers have little or no control over.  

Automotive engineering in particular is a series of tradeoffs.  Ease of repair is almost always a consideration in design of autos but when placed up against the many other issues auto design must contain these days, it does not always end up at the top of the decision matrix. 

Just a comment from the sidelines from someone who worked in the regional (US) and later global automobile industry in sales and marketing and later on in design, with about half of my 35-year career in executive level assignments....TB     

[dmthamade]

On 6/15/2025 at 9:00 AM, tim boyd said:

Interesting thread. 

Car engineers are faced with many competing priorities much the same as those characterized by Craig above. 

But on top of those they must contain many competing priorities from governmental legislation, and not just single governments but political entities across the world. Then add on NGOs like the insurance, safety and anti-petroleum lobbies and their agendas.  Some of the resulting requirements are exceedingly poorly envisioned and driven by political considerations rather than what is truly best for the customer and the world.  They often overlap and compete against each other and require sub-optimal results.  So much of what people complain about automobiles today is the result of factors the automakers have little or no control over.  

Automotive engineering in particular is a series of tradeoffs.  Ease of repair is almost always a consideration in design of autos but when placed up against the many other issues auto design must contain these days, it does not always end up at the top of the decision matrix. 

Just a comment from the sidelines from someone who worked in the regional (US) and later global automobile industry in sales and marketing and later on in design, with about half of my 35-year career in executive level assignments....TB     

Pretty much says it all. Lots of people you could point your finger at, but not knowing how it got to that point you're probably going to be wrong with who the culprit is. Probably not one individual but a "committee" decision.  I don't even worry how the vehicle got to the end product now. It's what we have to fix, it's what the customer bought so i'll take the work order/keys, and fix the car.

Don

Don

[sfhess]

When you have to remove an intake manifold to replace a starter, or a drive axle to change out an alternator, something is wrong.

[stavanzer]

The old story is that a Camel was a Horse, designed by a committee.

 

[Dragline]

Funny, I watch this kind of content often. But this cabin filter is straight out of a nightmare. It is almost as if the engineers and dealerships are in collision to pork you. When contrasted to the Asian vehicle it makes you truly wonder.

I have been a South Main Auto subscriber for about 9 years. I was an early sub er because the man has always said it like it is. And his "torquing to factory specs" always gives me a chuckle. While I am certain that when it's required for safety he absolutely does it. There are times when an overflow bottle or some such minor items gets "torqued to factory specs" is a direct poke at ( insert corporate moron here). As a former Benz mechanic I can appreciate his candor, and his humor is in line with my own. Not just that, the guy is a true master at what he does. There is NO gremlin that guy cannot find. And Mrs O is a gem as well.

Edited 11 hours ago by Dragline

[ksnow]

10 hours ago, sfhess said:

When you have to remove an intake manifold to replace a starter, or a drive axle to change out an alternator, something is wrong.

As a roadside Cadillac tech, I didn't mind the starter under the intake on NothStar's. I could do them in a garage with no jack. Now, the huge battery under the back seat? I didn't like that near as much.

The worst for me was an alternator on a mid 90s Olds cutlass with the 3.6L DOHC. Have to disassemble the entire right front suspension to replace it. 4ish hours and a front end alignment for an alternator.

[Mark]

Plastic parts and wet belts don't belong anywhere near an automobile engine.

[stavanzer]

43 minutes ago, Mark said:

Plastic parts and wet belts don't belong anywhere near an automobile engine.

This is very true.

This is a deliberate engineering choice, made to reduce the overall service life of the engine.(and by that extent, the whole car).

It is done with Malice Aforethought, meant to force you to use only the dealer as a service facility, and to make the whole car a shorter, more expensive life.

 

[heyjohnxx]

I bought some Sylvania Silverstar bulbs for my folk's 2000 Concorde. When I found out that I needed to remove both front wheels and the bumper and the whole process was multiple hours, the bulbs are still in the package. The car has long since gone to the crusher, but the bulbs are still waiting.

[Lunajammer]

It makes me wonder if the guy in the video is doing it right. The headlight in my PT Cruiser is changed by popping open a door in the fender well. I was charged an hour labor once by a mechanic who tore half the front end apart to get at the bulb.

[stitchdup]

its a 12 hour job to replace the bulbs in a renault laguna. the front bumper and a load of bottles, pipes and cables have to come off just to get to the headlight bolts and they put the computer behind the front offside bumper grille to be sure all the dirt hits it. just swapping one of the hard plastic air intake pipes for a removable hose would make it a 10 minute job