For those of you who compete......

[Scott Colmer]

I have to agree with Mr. Jones on all his points.

NNLs are suposed to be a show. A popular vote for best is in show is OK, but thats about it. Maybe some promoters or celebrity picks too.

I have asked a judge to tell me why a model did not place higher at a show. I knew the judge and respected him. We also did this exchange on line. He posted a very detailed list of the flaws that knocked my model out of a top spot. I was surprised he actually caught them all - which means - Yes, I knew they were there. I built the model and I knew every time I decided to let a flaw go and take a chance.

Good thread.

ps Once me and a treckie friend had a very serious discussion about who is a bigger nerd - Model geeks or treckies. We both thought it was the other. How 'bout a hooters treckie?

Scott

Edited April 23, 2010 by Scott Colmer

[Alyn]

ps Once me and a treckie friend had a very serious discussion about who is a bigger nerd - Model geeks or treckies. We both thought it was the other. How 'bout a hooters treckie?

Scott

Well, at least we (modelers) don't dress up in costume

... unless you consider "Rat Fink", "Monster Truck" or tie-died T-shirts, long hair and beer bellys as constumes.

[Scale-Master]

Pete’s comments are valid and descriptive of the way many shows go. But my point was more to accountability on the part of the promoters, organizers and judges.

It can outwardly look really bad if a judge for example wins an award; especially in a close call and even if he honestly earned it.

So rather than let it become a case of an entrant feeling slighted, it should be protocol to have as many of the judges on hand as possible after the awards have been announced to alleviate these situations. If it can be explained to the entrants, many if not most of them will understand. And certainly it goes a long way to cultivate a positive inclusive environment, not one of “us and them†between the judges and entrants.

I have been to contests where the judges are anonymous and have been to shows that the judges are conspicuously absent after the awards presentation. When questions regarding the outcome were asked of the staff, no one would come forth that had any knowledge of that part of the contest. By those actions it appeared they did not want to deal with the aftermath. Were they not willing to stand up for their decisions publicly? Something done they would not want to be held accountable for? Yes, supposition, I know, but see how it looks?

If the judges are true to their convictions of what they chose to be winners, why not stick around? Explain the reasoning? Why one was chosen over another… I’ve had entrants who entered two models in the same category in my shows want to know why the one they thought was better was judged less than the one we chose. It goes to show that the builder often does not use the same criteria the judges do for comparison. That is good info to impart to the contestants don’t you think?

I think if there was more of that “clean-up†and “stand-up†by the judges after the awards, there would be less negativity among the entrants who feel slighted. And maybe a few improvements in everyone’s skills to boot… (Anyone who has attended one of my shows should know most if not all the judges hang around until the end for just those reasons.)

[David G.]

What does that say for those of us who are both?

So, you're a woman and a Trekkie?

No, that would be my wife. I'm a car modeler and Trekker (only uncooth outsiders use "Trekkie.")

[Ramcharger]

Ron...why can't a member of the host club get some 'gold'??

The APPEARANCEof impropriety. I.E. to other it looks like the show is self serving, if you're giving an award to yourself. It has nothing to do with what is the best model on the table. The host club should not even compete in their own show, it looks like they're buying themselves trophies. No matter how good their stuff is and no matter how bad the other stuff is, it looks bad. Would I walk out in a huff if I was at a show where they did that? No, but others do. Again, if I get beat I just build better! This is a problem of perception, not reality. Lots of people, when their stuff gets beat they look to blame others, poor judging, fixed results, the club only gave trophies to themselves, etc., etc. Why would a club want their show to get that reputation? It is waaay to easy to avoid, have a display table for club members to show off their stuff and be as fair when judging as humanly possible. That's how I see it from this side of the keyboard, anyway!

[weasel]

The APPEARANCEof impropriety. I.E. to other it looks like the show is self serving, if you're giving an award to yourself. It has nothing to do with what is the best model on the table. The host club should not even compete in their own show, it looks like they're buying themselves trophies. No matter how good their stuff is and no matter how bad the other stuff is, it looks bad. Would I walk out in a huff if I was at a show where they did that? No, but others do. Again, if I get beat I just build better! This is a problem of perception, not reality. Lots of people, when their stuff gets beat they look to blame others, poor judging, fixed results, the club only gave trophies to themselves, etc., etc. Why would a club want their show to get that reputation? It is waaay to easy to avoid, have a display table for club members to show off their stuff and be as fair when judging as humanly possible. That's how I see it from this side of the keyboard, anyway!

well, i've always been under the assumption that the best stuff wins the prizes..not to be flipent[sp?]

as for the host club members, some, no, a LOT of club members [everywhere] don't go out of town to shows...they may only go to 1-2 contest/swaps LOCALLY, why deny them the chance for some gold?? that is what i don't get...

i agree that you judge the class/s that you aren't competing in, totally understand... i will say, as ex dual term prez, my model club judged the models not the entrants and may the best MODEL win...

[Karmodeler2]

Thanks guys for all the input and some of it is stuff I had not thought of (that's why the thread!!!).

I tried to edit my first post in the thread and I could not accomplish that successfully.

I left out what I like about one of my favorite shows and that was the style of awards handed out. I know that Mark Jones will not mind me sharing this so I will.

At his show on the west coast (if you are there, you definitely need to attend!!) that is held in conjunction with a real car show ( which gets about 3000 1:1 cars....you can't see them all in the one day show and see all the models too!!!), you really are on sensory overload all day.

When it's done, and the awards start, that's when I think one of the coolest thing happens. When you place, either 1st, 2nd, 3rd, you get a trophy but you also receive a model kit of the subject matter of the class you entered. And the closer you get to 1st, the nicer the kit. For instance, the 1st place for OOB was a Tamiya Enzo kit, which lends itself to a nice OOB. The best motorcycle was a Tamiya motorcycle kit. The best paint award was a Chezoom which lends itself to showing off a really nice paint job. Best of show was a Tamiya 1/20 scale race car that sells for about $500. I know not every show can do this, but I just thought it was a cool idea. And some of the models were donated, still sealed, for the prizes to go with the trophy.

I just thought the whole concept of give a modeler a model (and a trophy) was a better solution than give a modeler a trophy that does nothing to advance the skills of the modeler.

Just my 2 cents.

I will address some of you individually so I don't post one long paragraph.

David

[weasel]

speaking of cool... having a pic of the winning models on a screen behind the table/podium as the awards are handed out don't they do that at GSL's?? never been yet, on the bucket list tho...

Edited April 24, 2010 by weasel

[Karmodeler2]

While I'm really in it for the chicks, what I look for is competition, the more the better. I want to go up against the good stuff, competition improves the breed and all that stuff. As far as judging, it's all good. I've been to shows with good judges and bad, but if your stuff is good, I mean really good, it wins no matter what. My buddies and I have a saying, " if you are not winning, build better." My only complaints are about down time, waiting for judging to be finished and guys taking it too seriously. It's just little plastic cars! I like a well organized, well run show. Easy registration and quick but fair judging, that's what makes a good show. Awards that are appealing to display and not cheap looking are good, too. I wouldn't change much about most shows, they all seem pretty well done to me. Oh, by the way, don't give awards to the members of the host club, it has the appearance of impropriety.

Hey Ron,

I read your post and thought that I might have written that same thing in my sleep under your name. I wish ALL members of this board would read what you posted. You make some ABSOLUTELY awesome, and truthful comments that I find myself telling people all the time.

If you are not winning, build better!!

Well said. Most try to get the rules changed so they can win. Little do they realize that it has done NOTHING to improve their skills of building. It's only given them an award that basically means nothing.

Oh, by the way, don't give awards to the members of the host club, it has the appearance of impropriety.

I agree. Even if it was fairly judged, and the award was deserved, it still has the appearance of impropriety. Even if it's just a glimpse, it leaves a bad taste in the minds of the entrants.

Thanks for you input!!

David

[Karmodeler2]

To address Junior classes with too nicely finished models by 6 year old kids who don’t know anything about the subject, kit, techniques, (“Daddy, what color did you paint this…?†“What kind of car is this?â€).

Note to these parents: You building a model for the kid does not earn either one of you a legitimate award, but it does steal one away from a kid who did their own work. Well done cheaters, great lesson and ethics to instill in your kids. Shame on you! Is an ill gotten little plastic trophy worth all the deception?

Thanks Mark.

Great words and I agree with you. Nicely put.

And your other words were good as well, just thought these rang home for me.

David

[Karmodeler2]

Here's the ""Degrees Of Difficulty" judging system:

First Degree: Models are built out of the box and are limited to using only the kit supplied parts, with the following exceptions: Decals may be added/substituted, & paint, foil & flocking may be used to finish the models. Basically the same as the "Box Stock"/"Out Of Box" category.

Second Degree: Similar to First Degree, but minor kit parts swapping, (wheels, tires, seats, engine parts, etc.), is permitted as well.

Third Degree: Similar to Second Degree, but engine, interior & chassis detailing are permitted with the use of aftermarket parts, (resin, photoetch, turned aluminum, etc.), & minor scratchbuilding permitted as well.

Fourth Degree: Similar to Third Degree, but major body/chassis kitbashing is permitted as well.

Fifth Degree: No holds barred. Major body modifications such as chopping, channeling, sectioning, etc. are allowed, & completely scratchbuilt models are also permitted.

You'll note that there are no categories based on type of car, (Pro Street, Street Rod, Custom, Oval Track, Drag Racing, etc,), or on scale. With this system, like really does compete against like, not as to genre, but as to the level of the build. This way, it's not the "wow" factor of a street rod that commands the judges attention , (for just one example), but the way it was built that matters the most.

I've never seen this type of judging applied, but I have read about it, & it seems like a logical way to break down various categories & hopefully encourage builders of less attention getting modeling styles to participate.

Of course if one had a diorama category or slots for "Best Engine, Best Interior", "Best Of Show", etc., as well as Kid/Junior categories, keeping those would be a good idea, but you could eliminate all the different classifications based on the type of car or the genre.

So, what do y'all think?

Great Ideas Mark.

I have seen a perfect (well, almost, but judged that way) OOB take 4 awards including BOS because it had no flaws (IPMS event, their rules). There were several, more detailed, "more skilled required to build them", etc, etc...than the OOB. So would your point system eliminate this?

David

[weasel]

doesn't IPMS have their own set of 'rules' for judging??

[Jordan White]

RE: host club members

What about having a category for the club members only? Since they are providing the trophies, they could choose the sort of trophy, or "trophy", that would be for the club winner. They could either go with a huge trophy, a small trophy, or just something completely random for fun. Since the members would know each other well, it would be more interesting to compete against each other.

[Karmodeler2]

doesn't IPMS have their own set of 'rules' for judging??

Hey Dick,

IPMS does have their own set of rules, and to answer another question, yes GSL does do pics of the winning models. They have several hours (when the contest is closed from 5pm to 4 am) to do this and they know the results.

At a one day show, it is hard to know which cars will win and you would have to photograph each model (ATL had 700 last year or so), and then organize them all in a short time while votes are being counted so that you could have them on the screen. While I would like to see this, I don't know if a one day show could pull it off.

David

[Karmodeler2]

RE: host club members

What about having a category for the club members only? Since they are providing the trophies, they could choose the sort of trophy, or "trophy", that would be for the club winner. They could either go with a huge trophy, a small trophy, or just something completely random for fun. Since the members would know each other well, it would be more interesting to compete against each other.

Good point. Even have a popular vote for that class where the judges can't pick their own, and the people pick what they think is the best.

David

[randx0]

Absolutely. "Everyone is special" means nobody is. Real achievement needs to be honored,and our youth are rapidly losing an understanding of that, along with many child-rearing "experts." All it does is blunt peoples' drive and competitive edges, while the rest of the world laughs at us and their kids eat our kids' lunch.

That said, I don't have a problem with a nice "certificate of participation" for the younger modelers so they do have something tangible to hold onto or display with their model if they so wish. But keep the trophies for actual quality builds.

Charlie Larkin

I said Not a trophy for every kid but rather items to help them improve and continue building and come back the following year . The more you teach the kids the better they get and that would make the stage mom dads less of a problem.

[1320wayne]

So many valid points to review. Basically it's a matter of persepctive from each individual surveyed as to what the best format is for a show. I have personally competed in so many different formats, I can't really put one above the other. I like competition so the fully classified shows appeal. Publicly voted shows are also good to attend because all of the work is done by the participants. I don't neccesarily care for any public voted shows where the general public is allowed to chime in because that's when you get a sway in the results simply because someone liked purple over green or Camaros over Cudas. In these cases the "Best" models don't always come out on top. I have attended a few of these formatted shows from South Carolina to Seattle and the best part is that most participants go away happy, regardless of the results, as long as they have mentally prepared themselves to understand how the results came about.

Judged shows are good so long as the judging crews are fair, impartial and know what they are looking at. I know that the topic has come up regarding shows that have had less than stellar judges and somone states that if you wanted better results you should have stepped up to help out yourself. That's great and all until the topic of those involved in the show shouldn't compete arises. Then that defeats your whole purpose of being there.

I also like the degree of difficulty and understand the breakdown in categories but some of the feedback that I have heard people use about this format in the past is that competitors don't neccesarily like having to pit their street rod up against a drag subject or their commercial vehicle against a custom. It is hard to seperate one from the other. Especially if you consider that you may be able to go further with one subject matter as opposed to another.

I also think that the awards themselves can be a big part of the draw for the show. I attended am IPMS show in Atlanta a few years back and they had an entire table of custom created awards that were part of their "best of's" awards. And there were plenty of them. I also attended a first year show in British Columbia Canada back in 2007 which had master categories (6 of them, i believe) with cash awards attached to them. That was a pretty good draw as this show attracted a lot of highly skilled builders from around the Pacific Northwest. The show was organized to near perfection, which was also a bonus. Unfortunately, something happened in the planning for the next year and the show never happened again.

So, that is my 2 cents in the matter. These are my personal opinions and I definately don't speak for anyone else on the matter. The bottom line is (to me) that when you attend any show, regardless of it's format, go to have fun, go to meet other interesting, creative people, see some awesome builds and have a good time. If you happen to win an award in the process that is just a bonus.

Edited April 24, 2010 by 1320wayne

[Terry Love]

Great thread. A lot of good responses. I could write a short novel on my thoughts about judging at contests but I'm only going to address the idea of the host club not competing. At our clubs contest, if the club members didn't enter, we would not have enough entrants to have a contest. Here in the great city of Dallas, Texas, we just don't get the people out to contests. Either judged or NNL. A couple years ago, one of our members, who was the contest coordinator, won best of show. A particluar person that use to live on the east coast and was a member of MAMA ( I'm not going to mention Larry Booths name) and now lives in Kileen, said he didn't think it that was right. I took it on myself to contact the majority of the non club members who entered and asked them their thoughts about the situation. None of them had a problem with the club competing and a couple mentioned that they wanted to compete with the club members because it wouldn't mean anything to win and not compete with the quality builders in the club. So I guess with larger contests it works but not for some smaller shows.

[Modelmartin]

There are a lot of good thoughts on this thread. Some of them jogged my memory banks and I thought I would present a few more.

At our NNL North show we always make sure each Junior who participates gets a kit from the door prize stash. They get a 1st through third trophies and we are pretty confrontational about "stage mom" dads and their models. There isn't much of a problem with it at NNL shows. It is more of a contest issue.

I have noticed that some shows have a negative approach to judging and some have a positive approach. Basically that means some look for what's wrong and some look for what was done well. I way prefer the positive approach.

I HATE judging systems that ignore what the builder started with. If you have equal models but one started as a Tamiya and the other started as a Pyro kit it is obvious to me that the one starting as a Pyro had more work done and it was a greater accomplishment. Most smaller IPMS shows I have gone to use what I call the "County Fair" judging where they hand out so many gold, silver, and bronze awards. I don't like it. It is a contest so award the best. Spreading the gold is ultimately unproductive. It annoys the better builders and I don't know that the people who pick up some of the spread-out gold are really that pleased with it. I know that when I bring some table filler to a show and get a plaque for it, I could not care less about it.

I don't care for the idea of the degree of difficulty judging system. It opens up a whole new can of worms and to me it almost negates the idea of a competition to see which model is best. Most contests have an out of box category anyway. The competition in that is almost as hot as the regular categories. I say simplify, not complicate.

The best judging I have ever seen in an almost impossible situation was in the early 80s in Milwaukee. At one of the late Mike Dunn's Milwaukee Miniature Motors swap meets, he decided to have a contest. He advertised in the flyers and ads and lined up John Ostrenga and Dan Jansen to be judges. John and Dan showed up at the appointed time and were presented with a table full of models from 1/43rd to 1/12, all types of subjects, from trucks, customs, oval track, drag racing, GP moto, etc....and...trophies and plaques for 1st through 10th place with no category breakdowns!!! When they were done judging and the awards were handed out everyone was unaminous that it was judged perfectly. I could not have disagreed about any of the placings. I think I was 3rd or 4th with my Tamiya Kwakasaki GP bike. It was amazing. Dan and John are both outstanding model builders and were very fair and knowledgable. This shows how critical good judges are in the process.

I was at GSL #2(I think) and Mark G. was competing with "The Merc". The judging system had some organisational flaws in it and many of Mark's fellow club members were judging too(as was I). When it was all said and done Mark won almost everything that could be won by a custom. He was quite embarassed about it and I believe that was the last time he competed at GSL. In all fairness, most of the awards he won were deserved. Best engine was not, however(GRRR!) GSL has had some quirky things happen occassionally over the years but by and large it is well run and well judged.

The thing that most people should know if they are competing and want to win is what the contest is like, who judges it, and then build for that contest!

My parting thought here is that contests are activities run by humans and we all know how perfectly humans do everything, RIGHT!!!!

[Pete J.]

Just a couple of more comments. First on banning the host club from competing. I really don't see that as a viable option. I don't know what it is like on the east coast but out here, with some of the distance issues, if you were to ban the host club you would cut out about 60% to 70% of the models on the table and then you wouldn't have much of a contest. On top of that, it reduces the incentive of a club to host a show. That is like giving a party and not being allowed out of the kitchen. We have few enough contests as it is. I think this would reduce the number of contests significantly to ban the host club.

Second, on the subject of improprieties of judging. Every contest I have been involved with excludes someone from judging a category in which they have an entry. Also if a judge's model up for a "best of" they are not allowed into the discussion or the vote.

The best way to eliminate the appearance of club favoritism is to get judges from other clubs to volunteer. Unfortunately this can be quite difficult. Often it takes a lot of arm twisting to get a non-club member to join a judging crew. It would be ideal to have an entirely non-club judging crew, but my experience is that there are just not a lot of people who are willing to judge period, much less drive a long distance to spend several hours working hard at judging.

Also, I disagree with those who want great prizes to go along with the trophies. Frankly, competing for anything other than bragging rights tends to bring out the worst in people. There are enough rumors of cheating(Not all the work was done by the entrant)and large cash or prizes only exacerbates the problem. I know of at least one situation at a contest with a huge prize that one entrant brought in a model that was built buy one of the show assistants(who had sold the model). The model was immediately recognized, because the actual builder was helping with model check in. Nothing was ever said to the entrant, but that model was not judged. Not all modelers have a good perspective on why they build and what contests are about. Yes it is nice to have great prizes, but that lead to another group of improprieties.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Pete J.

[Scale-Master]

Very good discussion, thanks again David for starting it and everyone for sharing.

One point (observation) regarding the general public and modelers voting on the contest versus a panel of judges:

At the first of the Crusin' For A Cure model car contests we had a Peoples Choice award in addition to the formal judging. From the beginning it was apparent what would likely win that award. The biggest red car. While it was a decent build, it was not the best model at the show. But it was the largest and a bright red and caught the attention of anyone walking by.

The next two years we tried Builders Choice instead of Peoples Choice in addition to the judging. One ballot per entrant, not entry. I figured those who built and entered would have a closer perspective to what makes a quality model, substance over flash if you will. Care to guess how that went? It probably is no surprise that we received ballots that created a 40 way tie, one vote each.

The next year somebody apparently spent their vote on someone else's model, it won by a landslide, twice as many as any other entry, two votes.

There is no builders choice award at that show now, all the judging is done by a panel I chose for their building skills, knowledge of the modeling and real automotive worlds and fearless accountability. (And David, it was a 1/12 scale F1 car...)

[Karmodeler2]

(And David, it was a 1/12 scale F1 car...)

Sorry Mark, I could not remember the scale!!!

And thanks for the wonderful responses to this thread. I appreciate you and the others that have taken the time to respond. We sorta got off on the "hooters" tangent, but I think we have made some great progress.

Thanks to you all!!!

David

[Ramcharger]

Hey Ron,

I read your post and thought that I might have written that same thing in my sleep under your name. I wish ALL members of this board would read what you posted. You make some ABSOLUTELY awesome, and truthful comments that I find myself telling people all the time.

Thanks for you input!!

David

Wow, David! Thanks! I'm not used to such praise and flattery! I really appreciate it, Thanks!

[Karmodeler2]

Wow, David! Thanks! I'm not used to such praise and flattery! I really appreciate it, Thanks!

You are welcome.

I always thought that if you didn't win awards with your models, you should build better models. To hear someone else say the same thing is music to my ears.

Thanks for the input.

David

[1320wayne]

Sorry Mark, I could not remember the scale!!!

And thanks for the wonderful responses to this thread. I appreciate you and the others that have taken the time to respond. We sorta got off on the "hooters" tangent, but I think we have made some great progress.

Thanks to you all!!!

David

I forgot to add this in my response above. The closest relative topic that I could come up with regarding the Hooters girl piece was that at the last Portland Roadster Show model contest that I attended before moving back to Florida in 2007, we were lucky enough to enlist the services of the then reigning Miss Oregon. She was more than gratious to be the "trophy girl" and did a great job handing out the awards. And I was able to catch it all on camera. If interested, check out the link. Go to the last two pages for the awards pics..

http://public.fotki.com/1320wayne/model_shows/2007-shows/2007-portland-class/

Edited April 25, 2010 by 1320wayne