I don't really know what to call this rant!

[Tony T]

Drew - Thanks for the "rant" that begins this thread. Ignorance is bliss for some I guess!! Many people who rail against something usually don't know enough about what they are blathering on about. It bugs me, too!

Okay, here's a few of my thoughts, for what they are worth!

I was ticked that I could not watch the last two races of the chase. TSN in Canada showed the coverage of most of the last half of the season, and all the chase races except the last two, which they did show on TSN2, the premium channel (i.e. PAY MORE). I don't get SPEED anymore, due it being moved up into the premium channels as well a few years ago. I'm paying enough for cable, and just will not pay more to get more of nothing. The first half of the season was on one network, I forget which, and the second half was another network, and TSN carried the coverage, and I watched nearly every race...except for the last two races of the season. Ticked me off.

Bottom line is that I am a car nut. I love motorsports in most of it's forms. I do watch NASCAR when I can. I enjoy watching it. Yes the cars look alike, and are close in performance. I think this is good, as it makes it a crew and driver ability race. There are several drivers I pull for for different reasons.

Being that I live in Canada, motorsports coverage had been spotty at best. ABCs Wide World of Sports was where I first saw NASCAR racing. Later, when SPEED came along, they ran the old Bud Lindaman series Car and Track. That's where I got to see more of the older cars racing. The internet and YouTube has filled in a lot of races missed over the years. Now, I do watch F1 at times, but have found the last couple of years rather boring for the most part, with few real bright moments. Rally racing is something that I watch at times, too. I've not followed INDY/CART whatever they are called now the last several years, probably since Greg Moore was killed, though I have tried to at least keep up with the Canadians, which it is also great to cheer for Canadian drivers when they are racing in NASCAR races nowadays.

I think they need to look at rain racing in NASCAR, and more road courses. Did you see the Montreal Nationwide Series race a couple of years ago that ran in the rain? That was an exciting race to watch with those big cars on that track!

I watched several of the Australian V8 Super Car races when I did get SPEED. Awesome racing. I did feel that many aspects around the cars and how much they looked like the street versions could be transferred to NASCAR

NASCAR=North American Sedan Crashing And Racing was what I thought it meant! (I think I read that in SAE years ago!)

I think I hit all of the points I wanted to make...thanks for reading if you got this far!!

[slantasaurus]

That's why I brought up the salary cap example. If there was no salary cap in baseball, the Yankees would win the World Series every year because their whole team would be comprised of big buck superstar players, while teams like KC and Cincinnati and Pittsburgh might as well not even bother fielding a team. Having some teams at a huge financial advantage knocks the whole element of "competition" out of whack. Same thing is happening with NASCAR. That's why I proposed some sort of "spending cap"... or maybe an "equipment cap" where no team can field more than say, two cars, or have more than X number of people. Obviously the details would have to be worked out, but if you level the playing field as far as $ goes (or at least make things more balanced), maybe Team Little Guy could actually compete with Team Big Bucks.

Harry, the Yankees blow through the salary cap every year, they pay a fine to the leauge and that does little to stop them. Nascar along with the start and park rule implemented last season also put a new rule into place that limits the number of crew members allowed at the track per team. While a salary cap works in a franchise sport like baseball, football, or basketball, Nascar is NOT a franchise sport, there is no union (Big Bill France saw to that.....).

If you don't like Nascar, don't watch. Nobody is forcing you to watch. I don't like football but I don't go around telling the NFL how they should run things.

BTW, the Cubs are usually in the top 5 teams salary every year, how much good does it do them ???

Edited January 9, 2011 by slantasaurus

[Harry P.]

If you don't like Nascar, don't watch. Nobody is forcing you to watch. I don't like football but I don't go around telling the NFL how they should run things.

BTW, the Cubs are usually in the top 5 teams salary every year, how much good does it do them ???

Of course nobody forces me to watch. That's not the point. We're talking about NASCAR here, pro and con. It's a forum... remember??? A forum. Where the members post their opinions on the topic at hand.

And by the way, I couldn't care less what the Cubs do, I'm a Sox fan.

[slantasaurus]

@ Harry, nobody with any sense is a Cubs fan.......

@ Ken, baseball does have a salary cap, it's not a hard cap like NFL or NBA, but above a certin amount of team payroll the teams are fined by the league.

[Joe Handley]

@ Harry, nobody with any sense is a Cubs fan.......

That explains a lot of Cubs fans that I know...........................

[highway]

Oh, I know the 210-n-change for Bill is correct, I'm just not sure about the 177mph "average qualifying speed" as it seems low...

Ok, I see what you meant now, I misunderstood.

[slantasaurus]

What you're referring to, I think, is the so-called "luxury tax." I'm not sure that really counts as a cap because teams are still free to spend as much as they want, and teams like the Yankees that have gazillions to spend simply pay the tax and go on.

If you had read my previous post you would have seen that I pointed out the the Yankees ignore the cap and pay the fine year after year........

[Harry P.]

Good analogy, wrong sport. Baseball doesn't have a salary cap...

Yep, my mistake, baseball has a "luxury tax," the NFL and the NBA (and the NHL?) have actual salary caps (well, the NFL had one). But whether it's a luxury tax or a salary cap, the theory is the same... to create more balanced competition between teams. It doesn't always work, but the intent is there.

Might it work in NASCAR?

[slantasaurus]

Yep, my mistake, baseball has a "luxury tax," the NFL and the NBA (and the NHL?) have actual salary caps (well, the NFL had one). But whether it's a luxury tax or a salary cap, the theory is the same... to create more balanced competition between teams. It doesn't always work, but the intent is there.

Might it work in NASCAR?

Again, I refer you to post #143. In it I started to explain why a cap would not work in Nascar. Nascar is not a franchise sport, it is open to anyone who wants to field a car. Lets say you just won several hundred million in the Powerball, you can buy or build a car, hire a crew, and show up in Daytona in a few weeks and attempt to qualify for one of the open slots in the field. You can't start your own MLB, NFL, or NBA team the same way, you would have to buy an existing franchise. There is no owners association or union to bargin with to set a spending cap. This is how Nascar has tried to level the playing field by equalizing the cars (as much as possible). Nascar thought about going to a franchise system but instead went to the current system of locking in the top 35 cars in points for exactly this reason, to keep it open to anyone who wants to compete. If you want to debate the top 35 rule, it is in place to give the owners some sort of guarantee on their investment in place of a franchise. An example, no matter how bad the Pitsburg Pirates are (sorry Pirates fans.......if there are any....) they are guaranteed to play 162 games

this year, if they win enough of those games (HA !!!) they will make the playoffs (LMAO !!!). In Nascar, the top 35 are locked into the race because they are the teams spending the money and making the effort to be in the show every week. How many fans would be upset if Dale Jr missed the race because his engine blows up in qualifing. The top 35 is their safety net in these cases (and keeps the fans from storming the Nascar trailer like the Bastille ). Nascar considered going to a franchise system, but that would give the owners too much power (again see Big Bill Frances' influence...) and could/ would pave the way for an owners association or drivers union. Is it a perfect system ??? Not really but it's the best option and keeps the game open to everyone who wants to play.

Edited January 9, 2011 by slantasaurus

[Harold]

If NASCAR is supposedly not racing, how come its attracting drivers from different continents?

[CAL]

If NASCAR is supposedly not racing, how come its attracting drivers from different continents?

They haven't got anywhere else to go and don't know how to do anything else

[highway]

They haven't got anywhere else to go and don't know how to do anything else

So this has dropped to the level where now you're calling drivers like Juan Pablo Montoya and Marcos Ambrose no talent hacks?

[CAL]

So this has dropped to the level where now you're calling drivers like Juan Pablo Montoya and Marcos Ambrose no talent hacks?

JPM pretty much built a name for himself as having a bad attitude.

Usually talent has nothing to do with it.

Edited January 10, 2011 by CAL

[CAL]

I didn't see where Cal made any such statement. Seems more an assumption based on rather innocuous comments than anything else.

Harold & Cal do bring up a valid point however. Many drivers have attempted to move into Nascar of late, after their open wheel rides have dried up, & I guess they think it's going to be a "walk in the park" given their "amazing talents", (& just for the record I like JPM, Ambrose too), only to find out it's much harder to adapt to than they thought. Of those drivers, (JPM, Hornish, Ambrose, et al), only JPM has shown any real flashes of brilliance consistently in Nascar outside of the road courses, (Hornish hasn't even shown that much), which appears to me that it takes some talent to turn left in those boxy old sedans.

Adapting to one form of racing from another isn't that easy, especially on a consistent basis, no matter how fans of one form of racing may view another form.

I think it's the money and fame factory.

Look at Danica. She could have gone to Europe and did the lower lever open-wheel stuff in hopes of getting an F-1 ride. However, she wanted the limelight and pretty much came out and said it: There is just more money and limelight in NASCAR than anywhere else she could have gone... at least in the short term... and she did have options.

As far as JPM, I am sure he took a pay cut from F-1, but it's better than nothing. There is only one reason he gets to go to the 24 of Daytona. Nobody else would probably want to share a car with him. It's not that he is a bad driver, but he does have a bad attitude, big ego, and it was really shinning through his last year at Mclaren. It is why he lost his ride.

[Harry P.]

I love this thread!

[Mark Brown]

Since we've gotten completely off track..........

Speaking of Dale Jr, it's intersting how few father/son settings have amounted to much. For example:

Dale Sr. and Dale Jr

Richard Petty and Kyle Petty

David Pearson and Larry Pearson

and the list goes on. Not that some sons didn't have some success, but rarely anywhere near the father's. And in most cases, the sons had access to top level equipment, too.

What would be the most successful pairing? Maybe Buck and Buddy Baker? Keselowski shows some promise and his dad was one of the greats. Not sure about Rusty and Steve Wallace.....the kid tears up a bunch of racecars.

[slantasaurus]

Since we've gotten completely off track..........

Speaking of Dale Jr, it's intersting how few father/son settings have amounted to much. For example:

Dale Sr. and Dale Jr

Richard Petty and Kyle Petty

David Pearson and Larry Pearson

and the list goes on. Not that some sons didn't have some success, but rarely anywhere near the father's. And in most cases, the sons had access to top level equipment, too.

What would be the most successful pairing? Maybe Buck and Buddy Baker? Keselowski shows some promise and his dad was one of the greats. Not sure about Rusty and Steve Wallace.....the kid tears up a bunch of racecars.

The best father / sons ???

How about Lee and Richard Petty, both Nascar champions ???

Maybe Bobby and Davey Allison ??? They both did pretty good.

....And don't forget, Dale Jr actually seems like a good drive when you remember Kerry Earnhardt.....

Edited January 11, 2011 by slantasaurus

[Mark Brown]

I don't know how I overlooked Bobby and Davey - two of my all time favorites. I knew I'd leave out someone but that's a real senior moment! Lee/Richard is a good exception, for sure. We didn't really get enough time with Adam to see if he would have been big.

[Harry P.]

We didn't really get enough time with Adam to see if he would have been big.

Sort of the same situation with Andy Gibb...

[CAL]

Howard, Brent, Tim and Bud Kaeding

Mario and Michael Andretti probably the best father son success story.

Swindell's

How about Father Daughter

Ashley and John Force.

[Harry P.]

Harry you are evil............. ;)

[Chuck Most]

Say what you want about Kyle Petty's career, but you must admit that man has a great ponytail.

[ra7c7er]

Kyle never had a chance with a good team and when Adam died Kyle never recovered from it he lost what little competitive fire he had. Racing because just a thing to do after that. Kyle seems much more at home in the booth.

What happened to Adam was really tragic he hit the wall really hard but it wasn't anything that so many others hadn't survived before. I do believe Adam would have been the next coming of the Petty name. He was a very good racer for his age.

[Danno]

Then there's Al and Little Al. Surprisingly, Mini-Al has done nothing. ?

Or, Bobby and Bobby, Jr. ! Bobby Jr. just never had the desire ~~~ but he gave racing the good ol' college try, after all, it was a family tradition. He's one of the very nicest Unsers ever, but not a great driver. Now, Robby ... well, that's a whole 'nother thing. He's a better driver than his stats reflect.

And, a pair of the best ever ~~~ if you're into hillclimbing: Leonard Vahsholtz and son Clint Vahsholtz - 32 Pikes Peak Championships between them!

[slantasaurus]

Nobody has mentioned the Hamiltons, Bobby Sr won a Nascar Truck championship and a few Cup races, Bobby Jr won a Busch championship. Or the Reutimanns, Buzzy is still racing and David has won at the Cup level.