I don't think it's right

[Ben]

I was just sittin here thinking of how my boss is currently out of town at a big car show where he is entering his show winning 37 ford. All he did was pay for the car. He didn't build it, he doesn't even clean and maintain it! The guys in the shop do!

I guess if I was a billionaire, I could have the best car builders in the world build me a show winning car and then go all over snagging up all the best of show trophies?!?!

I would think it would matter when dealing with such high end subjects that the true builder should be the only person to deserve any awards or recognition!

Just thinkin.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Ben

[Mr. Moparman]

It not right. It's called taking credit for someone elses work!

[Longbox55]

Well, if that were the case, that only owner built show cars, rods, and customs were recognized at shows with awards, trophies, and magazine coverage, we would never have heard of many of the custom cars and the builders we all know and love. Guys like Barris, Winfeild, Cushenberry, Bailon, Hines, and probsbly many others I don't recall off the top of my head didn't build for themselves only, they built cars for others, and got paid very well for doing it. This is something that's gone on since the beginning of the car customization.

I don't see a problem with someone showing a car they didn't build, and even acceptimg awards for it, so long as they give proper credit to those that did the work.

[Jon Cole]

Hasn't it been that way... all along? I mean, if we excluded cars not built by the current owner, there wouldn't be much left.

[Jordan White]

If they claim to have done the work themselves, then I consider them dishonest and don't think they deserve an award. However, if they say that someone else built it (either for them or it was the previous owner) then it's not a big deal.

[Terry Sumner]

Would ya feel the same way about a model car show? I know that most shows have a rule stating that the model must be built by the person entering it, but what if that rule were not there?

[Harry P.]

Is it the car itself that gets the award? Or is it the builder who's being recognized?

You could make a good argument saying that the car is what's being judged, not the builder. In other words, it's not who built it, but the actual end result that's getting the award for "Best This" or "Best That."

On the other hand you can make an equally good argument saying that the builder and his talent is what's really being judged, and it's the person who created the car that's being recognized, not the car.

Tough question, and one with two good answers!

[Jordan White]

Would ya feel the same way about a model car show? I know that most shows have a rule stating that the model must be built by the person entering it, but what if that rule were not there?

I feel that's different. Building a custom 1:1 show car is a large commitment, both in time and money. Building a show model on the other hand doesn't need as much. It may take a while to build, but it can be easily stored away when not being worked on unlike a 1:1. It usually doesn't take much money unless you're using a lot of aftermarket parts, in which case it's good to at least give credit. Plus, 1:1 car shows are usually more advertised and attended, and may offer cash prizes. Model shows are smaller, may not offer a prize, and shouldn't have a real reason to want to buy a completed winner unless the person just is seeking acceptance.

[Harry P.]

I agree with Jordan, It's like comparing apples & hand grenades.

Actually competing in "real" car shows and in a model car show is exactly the same. Sure, it takes more money, time, etc. to build a full-scale car, but the basic idea–showing the finished product and competing with other entrants for awards–is the same identical concept for both. It's not apples and hand grenades, it's the same thing.

[Longbox55]

I agree with Jordan, It's like comparing apples & hand grenades.

Hand Grenades?

[MikeMc]

On my prize winning 1953 Harley FL, I did a lot of the work...but I could not split the cases on the rebuild, nor did I do the paint...by choice. I had a beautiful display board giving credit where it was due(and paid for)...I had the vision...and I keep the trophys....

[Jordan White]

True, but building a model and building a 1:1 is a completely different ball game. Anyone can buy a kit and build it right out of the box (the quality may not be the same however ). Not anyone can just buy a real car and build it up. There's also the deal that a real car can, you know, be driven around whereas a model can either be shown at a show, or put on a shelf. Thus having a person that knows what they're doing building the car makes sense. You of course get people in both sets that have someone else do the work so they can just claim it as their own, but for the most part they are two different areas. 1:1 car owners want their dream car but may not have the skills to pay the bills, whereas a model builder will want to do the work themselves so they can make it their own way and show off their skills.

Any more and I feel like I'll be talking in circles!

[Ben]

If the entrant gives full credit to the designer, builder and painter, I can understand that, but I think my boss just puts the car in the show and takes all the credit for it.

I personally would be ashamed to enter a winning vehicle that I had no part in creating while others in the show that built their whole vehicle and may have even painted it themselves, get no awards.

[Harry P.]

Like I said, the question is: Is it the car being judged/awarded? Or the builder?

Jordan, you point out that it's different building a 1:1 car and a model. Of course it's different, but that's not the point. The initial question was: is it fair for a car in a show to win an award if the car is being shown by someone other than the person who built it. And that gets back to my question: Is the car being judged? Or the builder?

Let's consider an analogy: If you take an apple pie your grandma baked and entered "Grandma's Apple Pie" in the county fair, and the judges taste it and award it a blue ribbon, who (or what) was the recipient of the award?

You? The pie? Or grandma?

See my point?

[samdiego]

That's a little bit of why I stepped away from competitive building years ago.

[Jordan White]

Alright, then I think it's the car that is being judged. There may be some cases of crooked judges voting for the owner, but I think it's usually the car. I can see what you're saying about company built cars vs. owner built cars, but I still think it doesn't matter. They are people too, and for all they know they are the best, which of course may not be true (just look at the cars West Coast Customs churns out!) Of course, people should know that their car may not win and just enjoy the show for what it is. Heck, the car doesn't even have to be insanely custom to win, which means an average Joe could build a winning car.

[Chuck Most]

As long as he isn't passing someone else's work off as his own, what's the big deal. I don't see why this continues to be such an issue. Yeah, he 'bought' the car, but it's still his! I don't see why people think if you hire a pro, you're not a 'real hot rodder'. Why does it matter? Follow that logic- If you didn't build the house you own, wouldn't that mean you're not really a homeowner? I just don't get why people get so wrapped up about who built the car (owner vs. shop or other party), and totally ignore the car.

[Harry P.]

I just don't get why people get so wrapped up about who built the car (owner vs. shop or other party), and totally ignore the car.

Because it's often unclear what's being given the award: the car or the builder?

A guy who uses his own money and time and talent to build a car and enter it in a show, and then sees a guy who bought a finished car win the Best of Show with that car, is obviously going to feel cheated. But the guy who bought and entered the finished car probably has a whole different idea... after all, it was the car that he entered, and it was the car that was judged and won.

It all depends on how you look at it. Like I said, a good argument can be made for both sides.

[Eric Stone]

What bugs me is when someone wins a small local weekend car show with a brand new car, sometimes still wearing paper tags, with absolutely nothing done to the car. You can't place the blame on any one party, since the owner enters it, the show organizers allow it, and the judges or people (depending on the format of the show) vote on it. Part of the problem lies in how they're judged- just going by the criteria on the judge's sheet, the car scores well, and beats out other cars. It's silly, IMO.

Back on the original topic, I think the car is ultimately what gets judged- To judge the builder, you'd need more than one car's worth of work. You can't judge the owner- he's just the guy who has to accept the trophies and preps/cleans the car, which can also be a BIG job sometimes, but nothing compared to building/painting the thing if it's resto'd or heavily cusomized.

[Eric Stone]

Because it's often unclear what's being given the award: the car or the builder?

A guy who uses his own money and time and talent to build a car and enter it in a show, and then sees a guy who bought a finished car win the Best of Show with that car, is obviously going to feel cheated. ...

Cheated by who? SOMEbody built the car, even if he's not the one who entered the show. The current owner didn't magically wave his checkbook and make things appear out of the ether- there was some guy spending hours in a shop somewhere to make it happen. The result (the car) is what is judged. The winning car beat the rest of the cars according to whoever judged.

[ra7c7er]

Most of the time I think people are honest about others doing the work. It's the few people that are not that bug me. You have the money they have the talent very rarely does anyone have both.

[Aaronw]

So I suppose only some guy on an assembly line in Detroit or Italy could enter a factory stock Ferrari or Corvette?

With 1-1 cars I think there is a much broader acceptance for someone else doing the work, as few owners really have the skill to do all of the work themselves.

I really doubt most of the people participating at the Concours D' Elegance did any work on thier cars.

Other than the connection of the car theme I don't think a model car show and a real car show have much in common.

I do agree it would be dishonest to imply you have done work that you didn't do in either case.

[Guest Johnny]

What bugs me is when someone wins a small local weekend car show with a brand new car, sometimes still wearing paper tags, with absolutely nothing done to the car. You can't place the blame on any one party, since the owner enters it, the show organizers allow it, and the judges or people (depending on the format of the show) vote on it. Part of the problem lies in how they're judged- just going by the criteria on the judge's sheet, the car scores well, and beats out other cars. It's silly, IMO.

Back on the original topic, I think the car is ultimately what gets judged- To judge the builder, you'd need more than one car's worth of work. You can't judge the owner- he's just the guy who has to accept the trophies and preps/cleans the car, which can also be a BIG job sometimes, but nothing compared to building/painting the thing if it's resto'd or heavily cusomized.

This happened here locally at a small show! Top award went to a new Shelby Mustang. Had a little over 100 miles on the clock.

The guy took top honors and when he got ready to leave he pulled the FORD plates off and there were dealer plates underneath!

The argument of who built...........comes upall the time!

Some people have the talent and the place and the tools to build their own car. Others don't but have the money to have what they want built or to just buy a finished car that fits what their dream car may be!

When the car is judged it should have no bearing on what car wins as it is the car that is judged.

I have found that the majority will tell you they didn't build the car and will give credit to whom ever did!

Yes, there will always be those few that will try and take credit but as I have found someone always knows andthey will be outed!

[Ben]

I hadn't realized that this subject had been discussed before. After reading some of the replies, I think some may have missed what I was trying to imply. The ONLY thing my boss did or does with the car is buy it and drive it. One of our shop guys cleans and polishes every square inch of it. Even putting it up on the lift and polishing everything underneath. We joke with him and tell him not to forget the inside of the tires and the exhaust. The shop guys (myself included) have built everything for his fancy trailer to haul it. We even have to load and unload it for him!!! Then, when he brings it back to the shop, it takes up one of our three inside bays to where we are forced to work out in the cold but that's beside the point. It just irks me that he does nothing and reaps the rewards!

[LDO]

I agree with the OP, which is why I subscribe to Rolling Pile of Dog Poop Monthly.

Next month's cover car:

I'm kidding, of course. This is why "checkbook hot rodding" doesn't bother me at all. How many builders have used an idea they saw on a car built with a check book? Plenty.