MicroNitro Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Harry if you have never been to the 500 museum It is worth the drive. I have been there dozens of times and have never gotten tired of it. Oh by the way look at the mid picture you posted that is not the wasp. It even has head lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Is it possible the same car is just shown in different displays in those photos? Same car, different cameras, different lighting conditions. And I agree that the second picrure is not the original car. Edited February 29, 2012 by sjordan2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Harry if you have never been to the 500 museum It is worth the drive. I have been there dozens of times and have never gotten tired of it. Oh by the way look at the mid picture you posted that is not the wasp. It even has head lights. Yeah, you're right. So what is it? Someone's "interpretation?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Harry, it's great to hear you getting excited about building this model. Hope you line up all your ducks in a row and start shootin' soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The car is what it is, the way it is now. Good luck on finding someone who was there who can tell you the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 The car is what it is, the way it is now. Good luck on finding someone who was there who can tell you the difference. Yeah, I'm guessing the number of people who actually saw the car race in 1911 must be pretty small, seeing as how it's 101 years later now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Everythings on youtube Harry...keep looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Everythings on youtube Harry...keep looking. Oh yeah... I'll be doing a thorough internet search for references. BTW... I checked out the blueprint.com like you suggested. All they had on this car is one single side view. I downloaded it, but the search for references goes on. But thanks for that source! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Yeah, I'm guessing the number of people who actually saw the car race in 1911 must be pretty small, seeing as how it's 101 years later now! I thought Art was there!!! Sorry, Art, had to throw that one in. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In building antique and vintage car models, you will find many interested people who are happy to help you at the Antique Automobile Club of America website at www.aaca.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In addition to the Joe Henning article in Rod & Custom, keep an eye open for issue #23 of Motor Racing Replica News; it contains an article on the Marmon Wasp. 1/25 scale dimensional line drawings are included. This article leaves parts sources "open" but mentions a couple of model airplane items as starting points for the tires. Like the R&C article, engine detail is ignored. The MRRN article breaks some of the parts down into shapes. A passable 1/25 scale shelf model could be constructed from the articles alone. Anything larger would demand a greater level of detail (including access to the engine), which would require a first-hand look at the 1:1 car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jas1957 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Harry please take the time to drive down to see that museum, you will not be disapointed. Your comment about school bus yellow is about right. As Art has said it is painted the correct color now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Reading the title & all, if you want to build the first Indy winner, you've got a bigger task in front of you than anyone has realized. You do know that in order to accomplish building the first Indy winner, you're going to have to build a time machine first, then go back in time to 1910/1911, design & build a car according to the rules of that first 500, hire a driver & a crew, get the car qualified & then hope the car holds together for 500 miles & beats the other cars & drivers in the race, don't you? Ahh, you want to build a model of the first Indy winner, I read that wrong. Never mind. Still, if you really want to get technical about it, the first event ever held at the speedway was a helium filled balloon competition on Saturday, June 5, 1909, more than two months before the oval was completed, so building a replica helium filled ballon might be more appropriate. The first motorized competiton was motorcycle racing on 8/14/09 & the first auto race was on 8/19/09, so the first Indy winner is a bit hazy & open to debate if one chooses. For the humor impaired among us, the above comments were meant in jest, or as Foghorn Leghorn says, "It's a joke son!! A joke!!" I know Harry means a model of the first winner of the Indy 500. I think it sounds very interesting Harry & will present quite a challenge, I do agree with one poster that in the scale you're looking at, the two Lindberg kits mentioned, while not accurate representations for any Indy car known of, can provide some basic fodder to start with, if for nothing else to give you some perspective as to wheelbase, dimensions etc. Also IIRC one of those kits had replicas of the wooden artillery style wheels & the tires in it. At the very least those kits should provide a basic starting point. Good luck with this project. Edited March 1, 2012 by Bob Turner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Turner Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 This site may be of some help. It seems to have a lot of contemporary articles on the firswt Indy 500, so there may be some technical information in them that could be of use. http://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroNitro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If you do get to the track talk to Donald Davidson the track historian. He knows more about every car there than any of us ever will. I am sure he could set you straight with what is correct and what is not on the current configuration of the car. He is also a nice guy who happens to be good friends with my sister in law. Also go upstairs to the photo shop. They have 100,000's of photos from all the races (including the 1909 balloon race Bob) That they will make copy's of for you. The coolest photo I have seen of the car is from a few years ago. They pulled it out in the morning light in the snow right in front timing tower. My son got a large print made of that on. If you can not tell you have hit on one of my favorite subjects the Indy 500. My father worked on the cars in the sixty's, My brother was on a few teams in the ninety's and I even built steering wheels for a few of the cars in the 2002 race. I still have a lot of friends on teams. I have been to every race from 1968 but the first one I remember is 1970 and the Johny Lightning car. Like I said I have pictures of under, over, inside and anywhere you can think of of this car so just let me know if I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroNitro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If you wait until May 10 thru 13 to come down to the Museum they car having a very cool car show. Here is a link http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/indy500/eventinfo/39708-Celebration-of-Automobiles/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I also found photos of the car ranging from a bright lemon yellow to a very "orangey" dark yellow, which is what the real color probably was (not "orange" as we might imagine "orange" to be, but more of a "schoolbus yellow" color). Yes. The problem is that so many pictures have been taken of the Marmon Wasp over the years, certainly in the days of film camera's, and print reproduction in magazines, etc., have not always been true to color. The actual color is a few shades darker than "Yukon Yellow" which is the time-tested USDOT "School Bus Yellow" (itself a GM Truck color dating back to 1935). Even the color film of the 1946 Indianapolis 500, produced for Firestone Tire & Rubber, which has the filmed conversation between Wilbur Shaw (Indy winner 1837, 1939-40, and President of the Speedway 1946-54) and Ray Harroun (who sat in the seat of the Wasp throughout that segment of the race film) appears to show the Wasp in a lighter shade of yellow. However that might not be poor color reproduction as much as it might have been fading of the original paint, which was a brushed-on paint job (that's how cars got painted back in 1911, folks!); but in any event, the paintwork on the Wasp the day that conversation was filmed was DEFINITELY very weathered, cracks and peeling clearly visible. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If you wait until May 10 thru 13 to come down to the Museum they car having a very cool car show. Here is a link http://www.indianapo...of-Automobiles/ If the 2011 Concours was any indicator, this should be a FABULOUS gathering again this year--I don't believe anyone who attended last year's event went away disappointed. Harry, you listening? Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroNitro Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If the 2011 Concours was any indicator, this should be a FABULOUS gathering again this year--I don't believe anyone who attended last year's event went away disappointed. Harry, you listening? Art Yes 2011 was great. I am very glad to Live so close to the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr moto Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Harry, There were the Lindberg Mercedes & Stutz Indy cars in 1/16 a couple years ago. Might be a place to start for frames-wheels- tires & such. If you can find a copy of the Rod & Custom from I think about 1965 with 1/25 plans for the car & blow them up to a larger scale. I agree that the Lindberg Stutz might provide a starting point and it's still in the catalog. http://www.lindberg-models.com/land_model72337.html At least the radiator and hood are fairly similar but there would still be a lot of scratch building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 I agree that the Lindberg Stutz might provide a starting point and it's still in the catalog. http://www.lindberg-...model72337.html At least the radiator and hood are fairly similar but there would still be a lot of scratch building. I have that kit. I'll take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I have that kit. I'll take a look. I'm afraid there would be a TON of scratchbuilding if starting with that kit: For starters, the Marmon was a much larger car than the Stutz (and yes, the very first Stutz was entered in the 1911 Indianapolis 500 mile race--becoming the prototype for the Stutz Bearcat -- it's high finish earning it the slogan "The Car That Made Good In A Day!"). Stutz was a 4-cylinder car, where the Marmon Wasp had a very large 6-cylinder engine, although in basic planform, the two engines are VERY similar: Aluminum crankcase, cylinders cast in pairs (note: in 1911, Ford was still just about the only car whose engine had a detachable cylinder head, large engines such as Stutz, Marmon, Packard and the like were built with "blind-bore" cylinders, the "head" cast enbloc with the cylinder and waterjacket). Both engines were T-head in design, exhaust valves and pushrods on the left side of the blocks (valve stems and valve springs exposed) and "atmospheric" intake vavles on the right side (atmospheric valves used the suction of the intake stroke to open, were closed by fairly soft springs). Intake and carburetion were both very similar, simple log manifold, cast in aluminum, with a single Shebler updraft carburetor (Shebler Carburetors were quite popular, and like both Marmon and Stutz, were produced in Indianapolis). A major difference is in the clutch and driveline! Marmon used an open, cone-shaped clutch, as did Stutz (these were lined with oil impregnated leather, very common back then; but there is where the similarity ends. Marmon had a 3-speed transmission mounted in the chassis, behind the clutch, with a torque tube going back to a HUGE rear axle (by huge, I mean a rear axle larger than any 1.5/2-ton truck built as late as the early 50's. This rear axle was suspended by full elliptic rear springs (this is two leaf springs, one above, one below, joined by dovetailing the eyelet ends into each other around a common bolt at each end (or double that of a semi-elliptic leaf spring we all know about). Stutz used semi-elliptic rear springs, but the driveline was totally unique to Stutz: Harry C Stutz apparently knew nothing about low "unsprung weight", as Stutz automobiles for several years had their transmissions bolted to the FRONT SIDE OF THE DIFFERENTIAL, which I understand made for some interesting handling characteristics. Frankly, if you want to build this car in 1/16 scale, I would still start with a Stutz, but I'd seriously consider starting with one of the rather rare Aurora 1/16 scale 1913 Stutz Bearcat kits, simply for the fact that it's a lot better kit than anything Lindberg ever did, but be prepared for some serious mods, even some kitbashing. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 As an addendum here: In November 1995, on the occasion of the 50th Anniversary of Anton Hulman Jr's purchase of IMS, the management of the Speedway Museum opened the facility one evening, for 4 hours, exclusively for model car clubs to tour to our heart's content. Docents were on hand to open hoods, aid us in photographing cockpits and engine bays. Somewhere in perhaps 200 envelopes of developed color pics, I have prolly a dozen detail shots of the Marmon Wasp, including the engine, and detail shots of the cockpit, including the monopost steering setup, which was done by a set of 3 or 4 spur gears, for reduction. Hmmmm! Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 One thing about the Aurora Stutz Bearcat, which I have, is that it's a curbside kit with no engine and not much in the way of a chassis. My plan was to combine it with the Lindberg racer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 This topic is right up my alley! I have nothing. (Humor) Seriously, I'd go with Art and Jim. What a great pair of resources on this vehicle! Actual pictures of the real deal. Doesn't get any better than that! B) = Way big Approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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