1/24th-1/25th scale, why is it a big deal

[martinfan5]

The inverse of that question is how many Ferrari kits does Revell sell here, compared with the rest of the world? It has to be relatively significant to demand re-boxing the majority of Revell AG kits into our North American boxes and casting them in white plastic rather than whatever color they were molded in, in Germany (errr Poland).

Those kits are all 1:24 and I don't believe I've ever heard complaint one about that fact from anyone. I've seen a fair share of Audi R8s built here and not a single person lamented the fact it isn't just a wee bit smaller. But mold a '70 Plymouth in 1:24 and the world is going to cease it's rotational axis.

Think large scale (no pun intended), does the average person who might but a dozen kits a year actually care about the scale difference? Do the people who threaten to but a case of something ever really do it anyway? I can only think of a handfull of members here I've ever seen post in the "What did I get today" thread more than 2 of any kit.

Again, well said

[niteowl7710]

Think of the hobby first? O.K., please let me know when the pitchfork & torch brigade us going to march on Hobbico and demand the abolition of those deformed monstrosities they are re-issuing like the one run only Buick GNX. Or more that they bought Revell AG I expect all of the 1:25 indigents to demand all of their kits from now on be done how us Mericans do 'em!

I don't believe the reality of the situation bears out a 50% sales reduction or even a 5% one. They might lose a few hundred sales of those people who REALLY absolutely refuse to buy it cause it's the "wrong scale", but I bet that is easily covered by those who really want an accurate '70 Cuda or the car holds a significant spot within their building niche.

[martinfan5]

Think of the hobby first? O.K., please let me know when the pitchfork & torch brigade us going to march on Hobbico and demand the abolition of those deformed monstrosities they are re-issuing like the one run only Buick GNX. Or more that they bought Revell AG I expect all of the 1:25 indigents to demand all of their kits from now on be done how us Mericans do 'em!

I don't believe the reality of the situation bears out a 50% sales reduction or even a 5% one. They might lose a few hundred sales of those people who REALLY absolutely refuse to buy it cause it's the "wrong scale", but I bet that is easily covered by those who really want an accurate '70 Cuda or the car holds a significant spot within their building niche.

All those lost sales of case's that people say they will buy if it was done in 1/24th instead of 1/25th

So let get this straight, if a kit gets released that has be sought after to be done more accurate then ones already released, or a new tooled up that was another sought after subject was tooled in 1/24th, no one would buy it?

I doubt that and call BS, I think that a accurate kit will sell regardless if its 1/24th/25 scale, but what do I know

So lets say if the Hudson Hornet was tooled up in 1/24th, no one would of bought it?

Edited August 30, 2012 by martinfan5

[62rebel]

i don't have a calibrated eyeball, but in my own opinion (and it's worth only 1/1000th of an internet dollar) i've never been impressed by the detail i've seen in most 1/24th kits THAT I'VE BUILT compared to 1/25th.... that disclaimer to take account of the fact that i've not built nearly as many 1/24th as i have 1/25th.... and of the 1/25th, a great many had questionable scale issues, fidelity and accuracy issues and fitment troubles that i've either glossed over or simply accepted as normal for building.

as far as why i have a preference for 1/25th TODAY, it's simply because very few 1/24th kits offer anywhere NEAR as many optional parts for customizing as 1/25th kits do. more parts, more choices, more value for my dollar. if any manufacturer decided to put out a line of cars and trucks in military bi-scale, i'd be open to seeing that option open up.

[LoneWolf15]

If we broke out the pitchforks and torches for every perceived " abomination " that's been produced , there wouldn't be a kit left on the planet .

From what I've gathered after reading both threads , the majority lie in two camps . One doesn't care what scale it's produced in , the other says 1/25th scale . Pretty plain to me that the verdict is in .

You can rail at the machine all day long , it's not going to change . I gave Dan the best advice I could give on the subject , based on thought and past experience as did others . Where it leads , is any body's guess .

You build 1/24th scale models , I don't . That is your niche , as you put it , but it's not mine . I don't begrudge you this , your cars are all about you , and well they should be . Afford me the same courtesy and we'll just agree to disagree .

[Junkman]

So lets say if the Hudson Hornet was tooled up in 1/24th, no one would of bought it?

Don't get me started...

On a more serious note:

There are many nuances between black and white.

"if the Hudson Hornet was tooled up in 1/24th, no one would of bought it?"

No, not no one would have bought it. All the people who don't care what scale it is in would have bought it.

But numerous people who do care about scale would not have bought it, which translates to less sales over all.

If I'd run the biz, I'd fight for each and every customer, so to maximise sales, satisfying the people who do care about scale does seem to be such a no-brainer to me.

[dieseldog1970]

Only way this would bother me is if I was building a diorama, with more choices for vehicles, figures, buildings and equipment...it is a no brainer....1/25th!!!! But I am not doing that, so I would be happy to be able to buy whatever MOPAR model is available....in whichever scale. Those Chevy and Ford fans have alot more to pick from...with the different years and models, so I will build both scales. The difference is more noticable with cars and trucks, not so much with the tractor trailers...but maybe I have not really paid that much attention to them,I think it is easier to mix scales with the latter.

[Harry P.]

If I'd run the biz, I'd fight for each and every customer, so to maximise sales, satisfying the people who do care about scale does seem to be such a no-brainer to me.

Ah, but the flaw in your logic is that you assume that there are far more buyers who "care" about scale and will pass on a 1/24 kit than there are buyers who have no problem with a kit being in 1/24 scale... so you assume that to appease the greatest number of buyers and maximize sales, the kit must be done in 1/25.

That's a pretty broad assumption.

Just what sort of hard-number, real-world data do you base your assumption on? What market research are you privy to that the rest of us don't know about? And don't point to the reaction here in this thread as "proof" that most builders want 1/25 over 1/24, because the sample here is hardly large enough to even remotely qualify as statistically valid and representative of the "average" kit builder worldwide.

[martinfan5]

So it sounds like if the American model company's were to switch to 1/24th scale, they would all go out of business.

[Junkman]

Ah, but the flaw in your logic is that you assume that there are far more buyers who "care" about scale and will pass on a 1/24 kit than there are buyers who have no problem with a kit being in 1/24 scale... so you assume that to appease the greatest number of buyers and maximize sales, the kit must be done in 1/25.

That's a pretty broad assumption.

Just what sort of hard-number, real-world data do you base your assumption on? What market research are you privy to that the rest of us don't know about? And don't point to the reaction here in this thread as "proof" that most builders want 1/25 over 1/24, because the sample here is hardly large enough to even remotely qualify as statistically valid and representative of the "average" kit builder worldwide.

One. If I'd lose one single customer, it'd be too many for me.

So it sounds like if the American model company's were to switch to 1/24th scale, they would all go out of business.

They go out of business on a regular basis without such doing anyway.

[TooOld]

I must be slow at this, are those different scales ? Shouldn't a funny car measure out different from a production body ?

I've honestly never gave much thought to the 24/25 interchange. Maybe I should pay more attention to stuff.... Do you guys work in well ventilated areas like the tube says too ???

One more time with two " stock " bodies . On the left is a 1/25 scale MPC 'cuda , on the right is Revell's 1/24th scale "cuda . Quite a difference !

[niteowl7710]

One more time with two " stock " bodies . On the left is a 1/25 scale MPC 'cuda , on the right is Revell's 1/24th scale "cuda . Quite a difference !

Sure I can see the difference, but it's no so epic as to act as if in addition to being slightly larger they also came and shot your dog too...

Someone please correct me but isn't the problem with the current 1:24 Cudas the fact that Monogram based the tooling of the longer wheelbase Challenger kit which is why they have such wonky proportions to begun with? I'd like to set a 3D scanned 1:24 one and see if it's really offensively obvious....

Edited August 31, 2012 by niteowl7710

[Fat Brian]

The difference in wheelbase is only two inches, I don't think just over 1/16th of an inch could wreck a kit.

[martinfan5]

The difference in wheelbase is only two inches, I don't think just over 1/16th of an inch could wreck a kit.

Thats not what the bean counters think :lol:

[Fat Brian]

The monogram cuda has always looked too wide to me but I've never had a problem with the wheelbase.

[moparmagiclives]

You have established the difference, now which one is correct ? Is the smaller 1/25 too small? Is the 1/24 to large ? Had you taken a picture of a 1/24 cuda and a 1/25 Chevell, complete on a shelf together, would the average model builder be able to tell the diff? Or would they just see two great muscle cars ?

[Ace-Garageguy]

I'm kind of particular when it comes to 'scale' and 'proportion'. There's something sloppy going on there...look CAREFULLY (I know that's asking a lot for some folks...it's not fun to be careful) and notice please the difference in SHAPE of the windshield and back glass. That's NOT a SCALE issue. The shapes should be identical, just a little smaller in 1/25. Also, please to notice the SIZE of the back window. It's actually apparently SMALLER in 1/24 than in 1/25.....the opposite of what it SHOULD be.

Imagine what other liberties have been taken by incompetent people doing a rather mediocre job of "scaling". If both models were tooled by COMPETENT PEOPLE, the proportions would be IDENTICAL. They clearly are not. I rest my case.

[niteowl7710]

Regardless if scale in this day and age of 3D scanning and 4 & 5 axis CAD/CAMs we should be getting nothing but the most accurate, most correct, easiest to assemble (with next to no fit or finish issues) kits ever.

Clearly that's not the case, and I wonder if we're to cheap to pay the associated "freight" when it comes to kit cost, model companies are too stuck on the past and ergo "lazy", or it's a nice symbiotic combination of the two.

Edited August 31, 2012 by niteowl7710

[niteowl7710]

Tonight's "Things I ponder while driving" is when Revell AG does THEIR reboxing of our American kits for their markets (things like the recent Mustangs, the ZR-1 and others have been repacked into their flat boxes) do the Germans and other Europeans throw hissy fits about the fact they're 1:25 or what? I mean it's the wrong scale to them, but it's not like Heller is ever going to tool up a ZR-1.

Likewise if Revell decided to stop remaking the entirety of Tamiya's 80's Masterpiece Series, and instead decided that with the purchase of the AG division they wanted to really blaze a new trail into Japan, but sell them domestically as well, and they tooled up a full detail kit of an iconic Japanese car. Would they be expected to kit it in 1:24 despite it being of US "origin" because Japanese cars are made in that scale, and always have been. Or would the first non-curbside version of a particular car be well received there even in "our" scale if it was well executed?

I guess it's a long way around to asking our overseas friends here, does scale matter to YOU when you get our kits?

[John Goschke]

I keep coming back to the fact that the majority of models and kits of American cars are 1/25th scale and have been since the early '50s. A builder of American car models in Europe, Asia or anywhere else in the world is going to be building those models from the same 1/25th scale kits we're building here in the U.S. and would rather have a new kit of an early '70s Mopar to be in scale with their other models of Chrysler products from that period.

[John Goschke]

I'm kind of particular when it comes to 'scale' and 'proportion'. There's something sloppy going on there...look CAREFULLY (I know that's asking a lot for some folks...it's not fun to be careful) and notice please the difference in SHAPE of the windshield and back glass. That's NOT a SCALE issue. The shapes should be identical, just a little smaller in 1/25. Also, please to notice the SIZE of the back window. It's actually apparently SMALLER in 1/24 than in 1/25.....the opposite of what it SHOULD be.

Imagine what other liberties have been taken by incompetent people doing a rather mediocre job of "scaling". If both models were tooled by COMPETENT PEOPLE, the proportions would be IDENTICAL. They clearly are not. I rest my case.

I wonder if the reason most car modelers don't seem to be fazed by such discrepancies in the shape and contour between two different kits of basically the same subject (and the flaming that occurs when inaccuracies are pointed out in new kit releases) is related to the thinking that consistent scale in new kit releases is not important, comes down to this — many, if not most, car modelers don't care about scale fidelity, consistency, or accuracy.

Edited August 31, 2012 by John Goschke

[Art Anderson]

Ah, but the flaw in your logic is that you assume that there are far more buyers who "care" about scale and will pass on a 1/24 kit than there are buyers who have no problem with a kit being in 1/24 scale... so you assume that to appease the greatest number of buyers and maximize sales, the kit must be done in 1/25.

That's a pretty broad assumption.

Just what sort of hard-number, real-world data do you base your assumption on? What market research are you privy to that the rest of us don't know about? And don't point to the reaction here in this thread as "proof" that most builders want 1/25 over 1/24, because the sample here is hardly large enough to even remotely qualify as statistically valid and representative of the "average" kit builder worldwide.

Harry, on one point from the person whom you answered here, with certain "categories" of model car kits, 1/25 scale is pretty much proven to be what the vast majority of builders want. Just look back 20 years ago, when Monogram brought out their first new tool of a factory stock US car in 1/25 scale--sales of that '59 Cadillac Eldorado convertible took off like a rocket, compared to many of their 1/24 scale US street automobiles. I suspect the same holds true for drag racing cars and street rod kits. However, due to their popularity having been established in 1/24 scale kits, such as Nascar, Foreign sports and passenger cars--it has never made any sense to try and market those in 1/25 scale--their category as model kits was largely established in 1/24 scale (not dissing 1/43rd here, but a comparison between 24th and 25th scales), long before Revell Monogram decided to make the change to 25th scale for Detroit iron. I owned The Modelmaker Hobby Shop here from 1984-1992, and if only I'd collected at least 50-cents for every lament I heard "Why don't they make (such and such) in 1/25 scale>

Art

[Harry P.]

Just look back 20 years ago, when Monogram brought out their first new tool of a factory stock US car in 1/25 scale--sales of that '59 Cadillac Eldorado convertible took off like a rocket, compared to many of their 1/24 scale US street automobiles.

Art

My guess would be that sales of that kit were strong due more to the subject matter than the scale.

[Casey]

Regardless if scale in this day and age of 3D scanning and 4 & 5 axis CAD/CAMs we should be getting nothing but the most accurate, most correct, easiest to assemble (with next to no fit or finish issues) kits ever.

Clearly that's not the case, and I wonder if we're to cheap to pay the associated "freight" when it comes to kit cost, model companies are too stuck on the past and ergo "lazy", or it's a nice symbiotic combination of the two.

In the interview Ed Sexton did, he pretty much confirmed that- American buyers expect a kit in the $10-$30 range, and Revell bases their kits' parts count and complexity based on established sales data they have. American model car kit buyers think $45 for a kit is way too much to pay for a kit, and simply are unwilling to do so, and Revell has fine-tuned its products to the majority of its customers desires and buying patterns.

[Casey]

You have established the difference, now which one is correct ? Is the smaller 1/25 too small? Is the 1/24 to large?

Exactly. Both may be accurate, and they shouldn't be the same size, as they are each a different scale.

We should also note that there are two distinct 1/24 scale '70/'71 'Cuda bodies from (now) Revell- the (originally) Monogram 1/24 '71 Hemi 'Cuda and the later Revell 1/24 '70 AAR kit, which was based on Monogram's '70 Dodge Challenger T/A kit.

What I find interesting is the person the O.P. has mentioned, who is in charge of making the decision to create an all-new '70 'Cuda kit doesn't seem to understand the U.S. market and how U.S. buyers and their habits are different from those in the European and Asian markets, and that's why the 1/24 vs. 1/25 scale difference matters.