Model car parts on eBay

[Ace-Garageguy]

I assume you're being sarcastic. Obviously that statement isn't true.

As far as the ebay seller's morals, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

Ummm. OK.

[Harry P.]

In general, I define something as "immoral" if the intent is to deceive or take advantage of someone by misrepresenting oneself or misrepresenting the product or service you sell as something other than what it is.

Selling a ratty old '85 Cutlass for $20,000 after turning back the odometer and claiming the car is a "low mileage creampuff" when the buyer asks about the mileage is immoral.

Selling a ratty old '85 Cutlass for $20,000 without lying about anything and answering all the buyer's questions honestly is perfectly moral.

Is the car "worth" the price it sold for? Of course not. But that's on the buyer, not the seller.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Good question! Anyone have an answer?

To copy someone else's work without giving credit for it to the original creator is morally wrong. From what I've seen of the Modelhaus listings, the original kit sources are mentioned in the product description. I don't KNOW, but judging by the quality of the parts and the overall reputation and 'feel' of the Modelhaus operation, I'm inclined to think that IF licensing fees need to be paid lo LEGALIZE the MORALITY of selling copied parts, they probably ARE being paid.

[Tom Geiger]

So in your world, taking advantage of a sucker is morally okay? You feel no obligation to help out someone who may not be as smart or as knowledgeable as you?

I just kinda think if a few more of us treated other folks, even suckers, like WE'D like to be treated (even when WE were being suckers) the world might be a little nicer place to live.

Who says PJ's customers are suckers? Look through his feedback. It's not zero feedback newbies, but people with hundreds to thousands of transactions. The feedback on his overpriced kits and parts is glowing. People were happy. He made money. That's what business is about. He has something like 7,000 current listings so he must be doing something right.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Tom Geiger

[Ace-Garageguy]

In general, I define something as "immoral" if the intent is to deceive or take advantage of someone by misrepresenting oneself or misrepresenting the product or service you sell as something other than what it is.

Agreed, but again, to price things so ridiculously high that it would be patently obvious TO THE SELLER that anyone paying said prices is lacking in good judgement or correct information is by implication 'taking advantage' of someone's DIS-advantage. Only the individual can decide how much screwing of his fellow man is okay, but we tend to set the limits pretty low.

[bill_rules]

To copy someone else's work without giving credit for it to the original creator is morally wrong. From what I've seen of the Modelhaus listings, the original kit sources are mentioned in the product description. I don't KNOW, but judging by the quality of the parts and the overall reputation and 'feel' of the Modelhaus operation, I'm inclined to think that IF licensing fees need to be paid lo LEGALIZE the MORALITY of selling copied parts, they probably ARE being paid.

So if legal is moral, what's wrong with him parting out the kits at the price he wants?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Who says PJ's customers are suckers? Look through his feedback. It's not zero feedback newbies, but people with hundreds to thousands of transactions. The feedback on his overpriced kits and parts is glowing. People were happy. He made money. That's what business is about. He has something like 7,000 current listings so he must be doing something right.

Ummm...I didn't define his customers as suckers...several others here did that. Maybe some happy guys who paid $20 bucks (plus shipping) for a part are just all warm and fuzzy. All I know is that if I paid $20 for that same part, I'd be a frigging idiot.

[Danno]

[Ace-Garageguy]

So if legal is moral, what's wrong with him parting out the kits at the price he wants?

You miss the point entirely. Legal isn't ALWAYS moral, and moral isn't ALWAYS legal. But most of us define either as "what happens if I get caught" and leave it at that to determine behavior.

[bill_rules]

Ummm...I didn't define his customers as suckers...several others here did that. Maybe some happy guys who paid $20 bucks (plus shipping) for a part are just all warm and fuzzy. All I know is that if I paid $20 for that same part, I'd be a frigging idiot.

Correct. You called them idiots and boobs.

[sjordan2]

To copy someone else's work without giving credit for it to the original creator is morally wrong. From what I've seen of the Modelhaus listings, the original kit sources are mentioned in the product description. I don't KNOW, but judging by the quality of the parts and the overall reputation and 'feel' of the Modelhaus operation, I'm inclined to think that IF licensing fees need to be paid lo LEGALIZE the MORALITY of selling copied parts, they probably ARE being paid.

I think that's quite an assumption. Consider that 1:1 auto replica makers have been hunted down by the original manufacturer and made to stop or to destroy their copies (Tom McBurnie's Ferraris were stopped by Ferrari, and last year Mercedes made a replica Gullwing maker destroy the bodies -- interesting YouTube video). The boat industry is notorious for upstart companies "splashing" hulls (making duplicate molds) from other manufacturers, creating a low price of entry into the industry and unfair competition.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Correct. You called them idiots and boobs.

Okay...let me rephrase that. If I paid as much for anything as he's asking, I WOULD BE AN IDIOT BOOB. The folks paying his prices are obviously smart, informed and savvy parts buyers, in some parallel universe I'm not familiar with.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I think that's quite an assumption. Consider that 1:1 auto replica makers have been hunted down by the original manufacturer and made to stop or to destroy their copies (Tom McBurnie's Ferraris were stopped by Ferrari, and last year Mercedes made a replica Gullwing maker destroy the bodies -- interesting YouTube video). The boat industry is notorious for upstart companies "splashing" hulls (making duplicate molds) from other manufacturers, creating a low price of entry into the industry and unfair competition.

My own work has been shamelessly copied without my permission. I KNOW what it feels like to be ripped and to be unable to fund a significant legal defense. Copyrights and patents are close to useless if there isn't money to hire attorneys and prosecute infringement in the courts. So much for legality versus morality.

Some copies are legit with the original-creator's blessing...like the Beck 550 Spyder. Some aren't.

I simply stated that I have faith in Modelhaus to be 'doing the right thing'. Blind faith at that.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

I simply stated that I have faith in Modelhaus to be 'doing the right thing'. Blind faith at that.

Let me make it clear that I have no idea what, if any, relationship Modelhaus has with kit manufacturers. But now that the subject has been brought up, I sure would like to know how an aftermarket company can afford all the various licensing fees to produce so many different models. Assuming they actually do pay licensing fees.

And if they don't... how are they getting away with that?

Not bashing them. I have absolutely no issue with them. Just very curious.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Let me make it clear that I have no idea what, if any, relationship Modelhaus has with kit manufacturers. But now that the subject has been brought up, I sure would like to know how an aftermarket company can afford all the various licensing fees to produce so many different models. Assuming they actually do pay licensing fees.

And if they don't... how are they getting away with that?

Not bashing them. I have absolutely no issue with them. Just very curious.

My assumption is that any model (or 1:1 car company, for that matter) company seeing what Modelhaus produces as being helpful to the hobby in general and therefor good for business, and realizing that Modelhaus isn't costing them a nickel in lost sales, would have the good sense to either charge nothing for a license to produce small runs of out-of-production parts, or to charge a nominal fee to make the lawyers all happy...maybe a few pennies per part actually sold.

That would be a reasonable and fair solution (to my somewhat warped mind anyway).

There is also the fact that Modelhaus puts their mold-parting lines in different places than many kit parts, and to do this (and make parts with no mold parting lines as noted in a post above) requires that new or significantly altered masters be produced. This can have an effect on the exact interpretation of "copy", and if design patents have lapsed and copyrights are not enforced, it all becomes non-issue.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Tom Geiger]

Ummm...I didn't define his customers as suckers...several others here did that. Maybe some happy guys who paid $20 bucks (plus shipping) for a part are just all warm and fuzzy. All I know is that if I paid $20 for that same part, I'd be a frigging idiot.

Ah, but there are still enough people who will pay that price for a part they want or need. He doesn't need the blessing of everyone in the hobby, only the agreement from a small percentage of modelers to make his business model work!

For instance, when Chrysler brought out the original Ram pickup, it was a radical design that looked like a big rig. Their intent was to capture 10% of the pickup market in the first year of that design. And that made the project financially feasible. So they intentionally built a product that 90% of truck buyers would dislike. Same here. That 10% of modelers who will pay his prices are his customers.

There is a model dealer here on the East Coast who vends at shows with this huge wall of amazing old kits and annuals. He has everything! His prices are enormous. $200-300 for a prize kit. When he was vending at NNL East, modelers literally hounded me that I needed to 'make him sell them cheaper'. Like that was in my abilities. But at the end of every show, I'd see guys lovingly going through the boxes of the kits they bought from him. I'd ask and they'd say things like, "This is my holy grail, I looked for it for years so I bit down hard and paid the $300." So this vendor was selling kits. If he wasn't he wouldn't be able to travel around to shows and pay table fees.

So this vendor's business model was to sell a few kits at say, $100 profit each, rather than sell a bunch at $5-10 each profit. That means that if he sold 10 kits at a show, he made his $1000. These are all rare, hard to find kits, so if he put them all on sale for $50 each, there would be a stampede and he would be completely sold out, (Never mind that many of the buyers would be popping them on eBay for their own profit) and he wouldn't be able to replace that large inventory easily. Instead, he just needs to find 10 rare kits to fill the holes in his inventory. You don't have to buy kits from him, but enough people do to make his business viable. And if you want that rare old kit, you know he has it. Perfect business model.

PJ pretty much works the same way. All in the laws of supply and demand. Note that if he reduced his prices to half, his results would probably result in the same number of sales. There are many auctions for parts for $1 that expire without a bid. So it's all in the chance that someone will need that part, at that time, and be willing to pay the asking price.

[Harry P.]

What about the fact that they are producing kits of "Dodges" and "Chevies" and "Fords," etc? Are they too small... too much a "mom and pop" operation for the 1/1 carmakers to even bother with?

[southpier]

if I give something away, could I consider myself a genus ?

(sic)

[Maindrian Pace]

Wow, longest pj-toys thread ever, and in just a day at that. It seems he's getting more polarizing by the week. A while back, I saw that he wanted $40.00 plus shipping for the wheels and tires from a dually kit. So I bought the whole kit from another seller for $35.00 shipped. Vote with your mouse, and click elsewhere.

-MJS

[Ace-Garageguy]

Ah, but there are still enough people who will pay that price for a part they want or need. He doesn't need the blessing of everyone in the hobby, only the agreement from a small percentage of modelers to make his business model work!... All in the laws of supply and demand. Note that if he reduced his prices to half, his results would probably result in the same number of sales. There are many auctions for parts for $1 that expire without a bid. So it's all in the chance that someone will need that part, at that time, and be willing to pay the asking price.

Everything you say is true, and he has every right to sell whatever he can for whatever he can get.

But he'll never get a penny from me. I'll find a complete kit or a gluebomb if I need something he's got, and pass on the rest to someone else who needs it, as I said. Different perspective.

[Ace-Garageguy]

if I give something away, could I consider myself a genus ?

(sic)

Maybe just a species...generositicus southpieriticus perhaps?

Edited September 22, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Tom Geiger]

Everything you say is true, and he has every right to sell whatever he can for whatever he can get.

But he'll never get a penny from me. I'll find a complete kit or a gluebomb if I need something he's got, and pass on the rest to someone else who needs it, as I said. Different perspective.

Great Bill. We agree. I won't be buying anything from him either. I just like analyzing business models.

[Rob McKee]

The only thing I have against it is how many pages it takes up that I have to weed through to get to something good! It is almost like SPAM on ebay to me.

Caveat Emptor!

I agree.

[Lunajammer]

There's no law against pig-greedy sellers with no love for the hobby preying on anyone stupid enough to pay ridiculously inflated prices, and there's no law against being stupid enough to pay them. But there IS a moral darkness about someone who thinks it's really okay to intentionally exploit the uninformed, the noobs, and the just plain ignorant.

WOW! This is by far the most concisely stated, insightful, meaningful and eloquent post in this thread. I need not read more.

[slusher]

l wonder if he pays taxes on what he sells????