Bennyg Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I'm working on a Moebius International ProStar, and so far, I've had to correct the door windows, a couple panel lines that are not on the actual truck, filled in 2 marker lights on the body, and completely redo the front bumper. I have to agree with Harry that it would be a lot more enjoyable if the kit was correctly designed to match the vehicle we try to model. Even though I've had to make the corrections on this kit, I'm still excited to build a copy of the last truck I ever got to drive... I'm surprised about the prostar. We don't have Prostars in Australia so I'm going of pictures. Ben
1930fordpickup Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 No excuse for modern tools to have such problems. Things are so cheap to have built over seas one would think money would not be the problem. That being said you have to start with the good information. Garbage in garbage out says a lot. It also takes time to get things right . If everyone is in a hurry, things will get the close enough nod to many times.
charlie8575 Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 And this attitude is why we get $25 misshapen lumps that "look good enough for the shelf I run with", and the IPMS crowd gets $100, 667 part armored vehicles in a smaller scale with a ridiculously robust aftermarket support. Because automotive modelers are seen as over-grown temperamental children who play with their TOYS, whereas the IPMS crowd is trying to REPLICATE something. Priorities are important, blah blah blah, but acting like fixing a bunch of things that SHOULDN'T have been wrong with a kit had anyone taken 60 seconds just to glance at what was going on before punching the "MOLD" button is in any way, shape, or form "entertaining" is ridiculous. I accept there is an entry level amount of work to clean up the "flaws" that are inherent with injecting molding - mold lines, flash, seams, etc - but raising roofs, creating new glass because of that, having to file off exaggerated fender flares and reshape character lines... So, after reading some of the replies, we as "paying" customers should be just happy to have "model kits" and should be thankful that the model companys are producing model kits?, is that my understanding? So I ask you this, the ones that feel that we should bend over and take it up the rear end with half arsed inaccurate mode kits, would be ok if you bought a house that was half arsed built?, would you be ok with buying a car that was half arsed built? would you be ok ordering a meal and getting it halfed arsed cook?, why should we as paying customers accept model kits that are inaccurate when we live in the year 2014 , when model kits were more accurate two/three decades ago vs what we are getting now, again, why should we ? I am not asking for perfect model kits, but sheesh, a little bit more effort on the "their" part would be nice, I mean when you make a stock version of a car with a custom chopped roof, something is wrong with that, and there is no excuse for that, and it clearly shows that its all about the bottom line and to heck with the customers and giving them accurate kits Disclaimer, I am talking about all model kit companys James and Jonathan both have very valid points, and I agree with them greatly. Yes, as pointed out by Tom and George alike, whose points I also agree with to a great degree, they are little plastic cars, although I like to think of them as more than toys. But, here's my problem. They've become expensive little plastic cars, and with engineering and computer science at the point it is now, there are no more excuses for gross negligence. Frankly, with some of the mash-ups we've had (the '90 Mustang being the perfect example,) and given the interest of "protecting branding and corporate identity" so many companies (especially car companies) have now, I'm surprised some of this stuff is even approved by the manufacturer of the 1:1. Yes, errors will happen. Any product of the mind of man, no matter how well done it is, will have errors. We are imperfect beings and created as such. But sloppiness, sloth, gross negligence, and poor quality control are not acceptable, especially at the retail prices now asked for a box of unfinished styrene with a little vinyl or other elastomeric compound. Boycotting an entire company won't do any good; it very rarely gets demands met, and sometimes even backfire (see www.fee.org/files/docLib/perspective0703.pdf, please note this is a .pdf and may download, depending on how your computer is set.) Letter campaigns seem to have little effect as well, and verbally beating up on people at shows and so forth- well, your mom did tell you to be nice to people, right? There's a reason for that. Similarly, passively accepting junk isn't going to work, either. The answer then, is to express our concerns on forums like this. It's pretty well-known the manufacturers read these forums, so continuing to call out their mistakes, politely, professionally, and reasonably, may start to get them to realize that "hey, these guys are serious." Might prices go up a little? I'm sure most manufacturers will look for any excuse possible to pad their surpluses ("profit,") but, as we have also demonstrated, there is a breaking point, and when it hits that, they'll feel the backlash, and find a way to do better for less cost to the consumer, they'll have to to stay in business, and if that means thinning the margins again, so be it. A lower margin with more units sold beats the risk of bankruptcy. Charlie Larkin
charlie8575 Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) No excuse for modern tools to have such problems. Things are so cheap to have built over seas one would think money would not be the problem. Remember, Andy, the manufacturer is getting their money's worth. That doesn't necessarily mean the consumer (us) are. That being said you have to start with the good information. Garbage in garbage out says a lot. It also takes time to get things right . If everyone is in a hurry, things will get the close enough nod to many times. Agreed. Again, I don't ask for perfect, but at least make something passable. A minor goof I can live with, especially if it doesn't detract from the model overall or is very easy to correct. Major flaws, however, are no longer acceptable- they never were, really, but in this day and age, there are very few no excuses. Charlie Larkin Edited February 22, 2014 by charlie8575
Deano Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 And we still have no idea what kit Harry is talking about........ But the thread heats up, and I think that's was the whole point; DRAMA! Need More Drama!
Agent G Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 When discussing this topic realize it prevails throughout the genres of modelling. Why do you think we "IPMS" guys have all the aftermarket anyway? In some cases the inaccuricies are traceable to the R and D staff that began the process. A few years back team was dispatched from Japan to the armor museum in Latrun, Israel. There they spent weeks examining and cataloguing an icon, an Israeli Sherman from the 1967 war. When the kit was made public it was quite apparent the team performed too well. They replicated the cast steel hull as they saw it, heavily pitted, extreme texture and misshapen details. It was an outdoor display that had been there for two decades. and had been damaged and repainted many times hence the "texture" of the cast armor. A Japanese team once examined a US, M 48 Patton which was displayed at Ft Knox. The display had no engine so the finished kit sat just like the original, too high. In the kits case, 2-3mm too high...... We IPMS guys always caution to beware the "museum piece" as reference. So put this in perspective. What prototype was examined as part of the process? Did the examiners do their job too well or did they just blow it off with a "good enough" attitude? Heller was mentioned. The body was fine, interior details were a guess. I'll guess the body was all that was examined, for what ever reason. I whole heartedly agree that automotve subjects deserve the same attention, support and respect. G
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 So, after reading some of the replies, we as "paying" customers should be just happy to have "model kits" and should be thankful that the model companys are producing model kits?, is that my understanding? So I ask you this, the ones that feel that we should bend over and take it up the rear end with half arsed inaccurate mode kits, would be ok if you bought a house that was half arsed built?, would you be ok with buying a car that was half arsed built? would you be ok ordering a meal and getting it halfed arsed cook?, why should we as paying customers accept model kits that are inaccurate when we live in the year 2014 , when model kits were more accurate two/three decades ago vs what we are getting now, again, why should we ? I am not asking for perfect model kits, but sheesh, a little bit more effort on the "their" part would be nice, I mean when you make a stock version of a car with a custom chopped roof, something is wrong with that, and there is no excuse for that, and it clearly shows that its all about the bottom line and to heck with the customers and giving them accurate kits Disclaimer, I am talking about all model kit companys Exactly. We are PAYING for SCALE MODELS, that are being marketed as SCALE MODELS. Therefor, they should be SCALE MODELS. TOYS usually have deficiencies in scale and realism that are entirely excusable, as the target market, children, don't know or care (for the most part) if their TOYS are accurate. Adults, who are buying SCALE MODELS have the right to expect to get SCALE MODELS. If YOU choose to identify what YOU do with models as "playing with toys", that's fine. Personally, when I buy a box of stuff labeled "SCALE MODEL", I think it's fair to expect to get a SCALE MODEL. Every company employee in the chain from concept to production is being paid to produce SCALE MODELS. People getting paid should do the job they're getting paid for...making SCALE MODELS. Otherwise, label the damm box "A sorta accurate, more-or-less-kinda-scale rendition of a particular car, with artistic license taken due to some misguided perception of proportions, laziness or incompetence on the part of the people who developed and marketed it". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm always fascinated by how quick so many folks are to excuse half-arsed work. Why is that? Doing the work you're PAID to do, or ANY work for that matter, should be done to the best of your ability. Otherwise, just don't bother. Let someone who actually gives a damm do it.
Modelmartin Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I think half of the fun of building models is making them more accurate and correcting mistakes. Perfect model kits are SO boring. Where is the challenge? Not tongue in cheek. I am serious.
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I think half of the fun of building models is making them more accurate and correcting mistakes. Perfect model kits are SO boring. Where is the challenge? With all due respect, NOBODY IS ASKING FOR PERFECTION. This always comes up, steering the topic away from what we're entitled to get for our hard-earned...in my case anyway...modeling dollars. It's reasonable to expect ACCURATELY SCALED and CORRECTLY REPRESENTED components included in a box of parts sold as a "SCALE MODEL". Why should much of the model building process be correcting FOR FREE, work SOMEONE ELSE WAS PAID TO DO CORRECTLY, AND DIDN'T DO CORRECTLY ?? I build heavily modified model cars...as if I were starting with a real one and modifying it to reflect MY OWN vision. Why should I have to waste MY OWN TIME making it represent CORRECTLY the subject matter, BEFORE I can begin modifications to reflect MY OWN vision and taste?
Cato Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) What the heck??? I would have ignored this post except for the major slam on Revell, who is doing a pretty good job of putting out new subjects that we all are glad to get. I look at whoever Mr Cato may be and wonder what his credentials are? Looking at his posting history, he's contributed no in progress builds, no photos that exhibit that his work is so good that it demands perfect models from Revell, and no photos of finished models at all. In short you haven't contributed anything positive or constructive, so I do take offense to your rant. Well you should have ignored my post Uncle Tom. Disagreeing with an opinion can be done without bashing the credentials of the writer-especially when you're talking through your 6 hole. Your research into what allows me to make my observations is nicely painted to be a slam and not based anywhere near fact. You can see some background on me in Virgil's book 'Styrene Stars' or the cover story in MCM #156. In the book, starting on page 118, you can look at the pictures on those six pages or have someone read it to you. I see I have 1000+ posts here and not one 'lookin' good' 'attaboy' or entertainment post. My contributions and questions are in all the major forums. So here's what else you missed; you and George can enjoy your 'just toy cars' side of this hobby without the trite 'panties in a wad' bashes. Others of us strive to get more out of it. You don't understand that Harry's original point (and mine, Nightowl's, Charlie Larkin's and others) was NOT a bash on guys like you-it's the MANUFACTURERS. So your childlike 'what's with you guys' is totally clueless. I would never question you model credentials because I never cared to look, based on the drivel you've 'contributed' here. Stupidity WITH arrogance is apparently your expertise. Edited February 22, 2014 by Cato
george 53 Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Name calling is even more immature. Maybe its time for Casey to do his thing and dump this thread. jus sayin.......
SteveG Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I can think of two good reasons. First the lack of support from the big automakers. Without a dealer promo market all the big guys really care about is collecting licensing fees. Accurately depicting there products is a distant second thought at best.The real issue is the dependency on the Asian market for tooling and manufacturing. Sure there are communication and deadlines issues but I think the real culprit is lack of subject knowledge. I don't care how good the photos or drawings are. How are you supposed to really duplicate something you've never seen with your own eyes. I can't say I have any idea about the life of a Chinese toolmaker but I doubt they have a Muscle Car in their garage and take vacations to the Woodward Dream cruise. I'll bet they've never been to drag strip or circle track. I doubt they've drooled over their Father's or Grandfather's new Detroit Iron that they saw for the first time as a kid.Those are the kind of experiences many of us have had so that when we open up a new kit we know what looks right.
pharoah Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I don't have this problem. I don't expect perfection. Like it was stated earlier, these are still considered by many people to be toys. Some people would look at those $100+ FM or DM diecasts and find errors. As far as the cost,when I started building,like a lot of you,kits were $1.50 or so. About an hour's pay back then. Now they're $20 - $25. A lot of people (not me ,lol) make that an hour. I guess all you can do is let the model makers know you're unhappy with their product,otherwise they will keep making them. We could go back to the days before injection molding- a block of wood and 4 wheels. My .02.
Harry P. Posted February 22, 2014 Author Posted February 22, 2014 Come on, you guys. Let's keep the conversation at a level above 12 years olds, huh? The reason I didn't mention the specific kit is that there are many kits by many manufacturers that have the same problems. It's not any one specific kit or any one specific manufacturer. It's a pervasive "good enough" attitude that seems to be common across the board when it comes to model car kits. Not always. But often enough that it bugs me. You don't see this "good enough" attitude nearly as much with military models. I know that for years, "good enough" was good enough with model cars, because the majority of kit builders were kids who didn't know any better, or more likely, couldn't care less. But the hobby has shifted to a consumer base comprised mostly of adults now. That "good enough" mentality, however, seems to linger on. And to the guys who insist it's all irrelevant and we're just playing with plastic toys... hey, if that's your take on it, fine. Everyone puts their own level of importance on things. For the "plastic toy" guys, plastic toys it is. I realize that an inaccurate model kit isn't at the same level of importance in your life as other things. But my point is, if the real car has a square widget, and the model is supposed to represent the real car in scale, it's just as easy to tool up a square widget as it is a round one. No extra cost or effort required to get the basics more or less correct. Not perfect. Nobody expects perfection. Perfection is impossible. But I do expect that people who are paid to design and engineer model kits to get the basics correct. Again, I'm not talking about whether the slope of the fender is a quarter of a millimeter off... I'm not talking about a seat that has maybe an incorrect upholstery pattern engraved into it... I'm talking about obvious, basic, very visible mistakes that are caused by carelessness. A kit with an automatic trans and a clutch pedal. A kit with an engine that the real car never came with. A kit with no battery. Stuff like that. I didn't mean to cause a problem... I guess I just wanted to vent. I pay real money for the kits I buy, not Monopoly money or beads. I expect the product to be reasonably accurate. I can accept minor things. I understand flash and ejector pin marks and mold seams. I don't accept obvious mistakes due to carelessness or a "good enough" attitude. I don't like to have to re-engineer most of a kit and correct the mistakes made by people who were paid to create the kit. Like I said... it's just as easy to tool up a round widget as it is a square one. So why not just do it right??? I'm not expecting an answer, because none of us really know the answer. Or if there even is an answer.
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Bravo Harry. The point, well made and stated clearly. Amen.
Brett Barrow Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 The simple answer: Humans. As long as humans are involved in the design and manufacturing of model kits, there will be mistakes. They're human, what do you expect? As for the military and aircraft modelers getting better and more accurate kits, believe me, for the most part, they're not. Take a look at HobbyBoss' horribly misshapen new 1/48 P-80 and you won't think the 90 Mustang is so bad. Or Dragon's new M103A1 Heavy Tank which has none of the modifications (canvas mantlet cover, exhaust deflectors, etc...) which were fitted to the tanks during trials. So you can't build an actual in-service tank with what's in the box. As was mentioned before there is an aftermarket for military/aircraft kits, a lot of which is devoted to fixing mistakes in the kits. The difference is there really isn't a correction-based aftermarket for car models.
sjordan2 Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Just a note for those who haven't seen Cato's work -- it's superb, mostly in larger scale. And you should see the 1:1 Cobra kit car he built himself.
ToyLvr Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Inquiring minds still want to know what the offending kit is....
Harry P. Posted February 22, 2014 Author Posted February 22, 2014 Inquiring minds still want to know what the offending kit is.... Like I said, it's not any one kit. It's many kits from many manufacturers. I don't want to call out any one specific kit or manufacturer. It's an across-the-board, industry-wide problem. Yes, one particular kit I'm working on now is what set me off... but the problem is widespread and definitely not limited to that one specific kit/manufacturer.
Modelmartin Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 This thread has been fascinating. It truly illustrates how some people get really bent about stuff and other people prefer to enjoy life.
Guest Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Not everyone wants to rework kits Andy. It's got NOTHING to do with enjoying or NOT enjoying life. Edited February 22, 2014 by midnightprowler
Bruno Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I am an auto body tech, and when I fix a car, I do my best to do it right, if I notice something is wrong when sanding the final primer, I will take the time and fix it, not just send it to the paint booth as it is thinking "it's good enough"... I take pride in what I do, how the final product looks and the quality of the work I have done. But that's just me...
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