General Concern About Kit Leaf Springs

[Skydime]

I got to looking at a couple rear wheel drive kits that I have and I am really starting to come to an annoying conclusion about leaf spring replication. I know there are a couple kits out there that don't fall under this catagory. But as a general rule, I've noticed that most leaf sprung kits mount the leaves by a locator pin or a slat mounted into a groove on the frame. Why don't more kits have leaf spring hangers as a prominent intergration to their design? It doesn't bother me to the point that I won't buy a kit because of it. But it sure does make me wonder about things.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Skydime

[SSNJim]

I think it's a mechanical thing. I'm not sure that scale thickness plastic hangers could support the car especially if handled. Quarter-inch thick spring hangers would be about .010" in 1/25 scale. The way the kits do it is secure, positive and durable.

Of course, there is one way to find out - convert a kit rear to proper hangers and see what happens. It would be worth trying with both plastic and brass.

Edited March 18, 2014 by SSNJim

[Skydime]

I think it's a mechanical thing. I'm not sure that scale thickness plastic hangers could support the car especially if handled. Quarter-inch thick spring hangers would be about .010" in 1/25 scale. The way the kits do it is secure, positive and durable.

Of course, there is one way to find out - convert a kit rear to proper hangers and see what happens. It would be worth trying with both plastic and brass.

I have seen kits with the hangers. They do not mount with them but, they are there. I've seen a lot of people make their own on here and they actually look pretty good. But I do see your reasoning but, it has been done properly with no ill affect on durability.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skydime

[Ace-Garageguy]

My guess is that, as appears to happen a lot, the kit-part designer really had no idea of the function of the full-scale part, so getting a realistic representation that looks right but is still strong enough eluded him.

[Harry P.]

Leaf spring hangers are pretty easy to scratchbuild out of sheet styrene. Give it a shot. No problem with the sheet plastic hangers being able to support the model. What does a 1/24 scale plastic model weigh? A few ounces, maybe.

[Skydime]

Leaf spring hangers are pretty easy to scratchbuild out of sheet styrene. Give it a shot. No problem with the sheet plastic hangers being able to support the model. What does a 1/24 scale plastic model weigh? A few ounces, maybe.

True, they are pretty easy to make. I just wonder what the reasoning is for commonly incorrectly designing the springs. I understand that there are one off issues like the Mustang roof and others. However, this seems to be a pretty common issue with kit design. I can't imagine that those who do the research can look at so many vehicles without saying, "You know what? We're screwing up on all these leaf spring mounting hangers."

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skydime

[Harry P.]

True, they are pretty easy to make. I just wonder what the reasoning is for commonly incorrectly designing the springs.

Same reason as the "magic floating alternator" and wipers and door handles molded onto the body... the corner-cutting "good enough" mentality.

[Belugawrx]

Yep all of the above

And you cant lower them as easily ,... and make your own!!

[Casey]

Same reason as the "magic floating alternator" and wipers and door handles molded onto the body... the corner-cutting "good enough" mentality.

I don't think it's strictly due to cost. Complexity is an issue, too, as once you decide to mold four additional pieces (one leaf spring shackle bracket per side, per leaf spring), you then have to decide if you should mold each spring leaf, both front leaf spring eye brackets, both shock plates, leaf spring clamps, etc. separately. Someone has to decide "we're molding all five spring leaves as one piece with the front leaf spring eye bracket and the rear shackles," and while I'm sure cost is a factor to some degree, I also thin it has a complex relationship with parts count/skill level of the target builder, the physical size of each part, as well as the ability of the part to withstand the target customer's, um, finesse and dexterity.

Sure, two .010" thick leaf spring shackles would probably be able to support a model without collapsing, but would those shackles survive the assembly phase without being bent, damaged or lost altogether? A one-piece molded leaf spring and shackle loses some detail and scale fidelity no question, but is that loss is countered by easier assembly and a sturdier finished model, so where's the balance point?

I'm sure Ken is familiar with the Monogram 1/25 S-10 kit, which includes both a locating pin and semi-independent leaf spring shackles for each rear leaf spring end, like so:

How exactly would a mass produced kit manufacturer ensure that those two tiny shackle pieces, if molded separately, align perfectly and without fuss, and what would the kit manufacturer supply with the kit for use as the leaf spring eye and shackle bushing bolts? Metal pins?

Leaf springs in any mass produced 1/25 scale kit are going to be a compromise. To get true, accurate shapes for each leaf you need to make them yourself to capture all the details.

[Rob Hall]

IIRC, there have been some kits w/ separate shackles for leaf springs..I seem to recall building a couple of older kits with separate shackles, they may have been chromed parts. Some kits have also had blocks of different heights that fit under the tip of the leaf spring to raise or lower the rear..

[Harry P.]

I don't think it's strictly due to cost.

Where did I say anything about cost?

It's all about cutting corners–because they know that most model car kit buyers are willing to accept sub-par kits.

It's like the Chicago Cubs. As long as Cub fans continue to fill every seat at Wrigley Field, no matter how bad the team is... why bother to field a competent team? In the end, the consumer gets what he's willing to accept.

[Skydime]

I don't think it's strictly due to cost. Complexity is an issue, too, as once you decide to mold four additional pieces (one leaf spring shackle bracket per side, per leaf spring), you then have to decide if you should mold each spring leaf, both front leaf spring eye brackets, both shock plates, leaf spring clamps, etc. separately. Someone has to decide "we're molding all five spring leaves as one piece with the front leaf spring eye bracket and the rear shackles," and while I'm sure cost is a factor to some degree, I also thin it has a complex relationship with parts count/skill level of the target builder, the physical size of each part, as well as the ability of the part to withstand the target customer's, um, finesse and dexterity.

Sure, two .010" thick leaf spring shackles would probably be able to support a model without collapsing, but would those shackles survive the assembly phase without being bent, damaged or lost altogether? A one-piece molded leaf spring and shackle loses some detail and scale fidelity no question, but is that loss is countered by easier assembly and a sturdier finished model, so where's the balance point?

I'm sure Ken is familiar with the Monogram 1/25 S-10 kit, which includes both a locating pin and semi-independent leaf spring shackles for each rear leaf spring end, like so:

How exactly would a mass produced kit manufacturer ensure that those two tiny shackle pieces, if molded separately, align perfectly and without fuss, and what would the kit manufacturer supply with the kit for use as the leaf spring eye and shackle bushing bolts? Metal pins?

Leaf springs in any mass produced 1/25 scale kit are going to be a compromise. To get true, accurate shapes for each leaf you need to make them yourself to capture all the details.

This is one of the kits I was talking about getting it right with the shackles. Most kits just have that little tip and a hole in the frame to locate it. But on the old school S10, Monogram decided to go ahead and throw in some shackles for accuracy. And, as a bonus, you could drill out the frame if you wanted to bring those leaves a little closer for a subtle ride height difference. Actually, let me make that SUBTLE as it wouldn't be much. That is close enough for me but, it also gives a little something for those who would just like to add a bit more detail instead of having to start all over again.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skydime

[Skydime]

Side note...since we have mods involved in this discussion, can one of you add "About Leaf Springs" so the title of the thread isn't so vague?

Edited March 19, 2014 by Skydime

[Casey]

Where did I say anything about cost?

You didn't. Sorry, "corner-cutting" didn't translated to "cost cutting" after I read it.

Side note...since we have mods involved in this discussion, can one of you add "About Leaf Springs" so the title of the thread isn't so vague?

Yes, but you can choose the "Use full editor" option and change the title of any post you created, too.

[Skydime]

Thanks Casey. For some reason my computer skills eluded me there. LOL

[Harry P.]

Call it "Great Chocolate Chip Cookie Recipe" and really confuse people!

[High octane]

You seem to forget that the leaf springs are on the "bottom" of the model and can rarely be seen unless the car is turned over or displayed over a mirror.

[DirtModeler]

I had thought there were a few Photoetched leaf spring kits out there, but i only see a shackle kit by MCG for $8 alone...

Hmm.. maybe i'll look into it.

Edited March 19, 2014 by DirtModeler

[Art Anderson]

Same reason as the "magic floating alternator" and wipers and door handles molded onto the body... the corner-cutting "good enough" mentality.

Of course, unless one is looking at say, a Pocher kit, or a very high-end 1:43 scaler, most of the model car kits we buy and build are created down to a certain common denominator. That can, and often is, price, or as most kits I've ever experienced, designed to appeal to the greatest number of pairs of hands. The latter practically dictates some compromises, so correctly scaled miniature spring shackles fall right in there or so it seems to me.

Art

[DirtModeler]

Of course, unless one is looking at say, a Pocher kit, or a very high-end 1:43 scaler, most of the model car kits we buy and build are created down to a certain common denominator. That can, and often is, price, or as most kits I've ever experienced, designed to appeal to the greatest number of pairs of hands. The latter practically dictates some compromises, so correctly scaled miniature spring shackles fall right in there or so it seems to me.

Art

Funny you should mention Pocher, i was just looking at theirs. Holy Cow, they are nice.. and only $140

http://www.scaleautoworks.com/mmAlfaSprings.html

[cartpix]

High octane, you beat me to it. Possibly, they think that shackle are pretty easy to scratch build & leave it up to the builder. Model car chassis have been evolving, through the years. They have gone from molded in front / rear suspension & exhaust, with metal axles, to molded front suspension, rear end with springs & exhaust molded to it with metal axles, to all separate parts, including front suspension.

Molded in shackles would be out of scale, to make it sturdy enough, & avoid warpage. I think, that the lack of in scale shackles out weighs a flimsy, fragile, misaligned suspension, & the possibility that all 4 tires don't touch the ground. I'm thinking there would be more complaining about that, then there would be, for a small detail that would seen, only if the model were displayed, upside down.

It hard to second guess model companies.

[jaydar]

Where did I say anything about cost?

It's all about cutting cornersbecause they know that most model car kit buyers are willing to accept sub-par kits.

It's like the Chicago Cubs. As long as Cub fans continue to fill every seat at Wrigley Field, no matter how bad the team is... why bother to field a competent team? In the end, the consumer gets what he's willing to accept.

Please Harry not a Cubs analogy. Winter has been bad enough but now looking forward to Spring brings with it mounds of dog poop covered for months by snow and the Cubs.....

Joe.

[Erik Smith]

Chassis details are interesting. Really, once a model is built, nobody ever sees the bottom of a model. Even if it's displayed on a mirror, the top steals the show. I "waste" a lot of time on chassis details and painting - even though nobody ever sees it. So it's not so surprising model kit manufacturers spend time in other areas...

I remember throwing things like shocks away when I built models as a kid. "Why are there so many separate parts?!?!"

[Harry P.]

I agree that the bottom of the model will rarely, if ever, be seen once its built. But some modelers want more accuracy than the manufacturers provide. But like Art said, mainstream 1/24-25 kits are manufactured to appeal to a "lowest common denominator"... to appeal to the widest range of customers. So simplification is usually the answer... the "good enough" theory. That's why wipers and door handles are usually not separate parts, but just molded as part of the body, and why usually the radio antenna is missing, the inside rearview mirror is missing, the brakes are missing, the suspension systems are simplified, etc.

There is no reason why the manufacturers couldn't make better, more accurate and detailed models. They could. But they don't, because most car model kit buyers are perfectly happy with kits as they are and aren't pushing for anything better. Status quo. Like the Cubs!

[Ace-Garageguy]

It would be nice to have something other than plastic blobs at the ends to replicate hangers for sure.

This is really the salient point. The spring hangers on the blue example Casey posted would be entirely adequate, but they are FAR, FAR from the norm.

i don't think anyone realistically thinks separate shackles are required from the kit makers.

Again, it's obvious from the blue example Casey posted that that particular part designer had an understanding of the function, and so was able to translate the real part into a perfectly acceptable model part.

It doesn't really take much more time to design a spring like that than it does to just put a shapeless blob on the end of a spring. In the old days, we'd be talking a few extra pencil strokes on paper, and maybe an hour or two for the prototype model maker.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy