Harry P. Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 http://cars.chicagotribune.com/fuel-efficient/news/chi-tesla-confirms-affordable-model-3-for-2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestang Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Even though I think it's neat, there is no replacement for displacement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Even though I think it's neat, there is no replacement for displacement! Oh yes there is. And it's coming... Electric... hydrogen... natural gas...the sun... who knows what will be powering our cars 10-20 years from now? I think the gas-powered vehicles' market share will continue to shrink as technology evolves and other alternatives become more affordable and available. It's inevitable that gas-powered vehicles will one day disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Which brings up a question I've wondered about. If science knows how to make synthetic oil, why can't they make synthetic gasoline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Which brings up a question I've wondered about. If science knows how to make synthetic oil, why can't they make synthetic gasoline? They may. But, is economically practical? Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91blaze Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Which brings up a question I've wondered about. If science knows how to make synthetic oil, why can't they make synthetic gasoline? They do make synthetic fuels however they are not economical. As far as I'm concerned electricity is the future of transportation. There are many more ways of creating electricity than we have now and even things such as solar and wind power are becoming more and more efficient and reliable. Sure right now they may not be too great but technology is improving at a dramatic rate. While I may be a fan of older cars, I know gasoline is on its way out and am willing to accept that fact. Who knows, maybe one day I will convert my Corvair to electric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragcarz Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Maybe I'm cheap, but since when is $35,000.00 affordable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91blaze Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Have you seen new car prices? I don't know the specifics of this model, but Telsa's current model has 0-60 of 3.7 seconds, 250 mile range, and is very luxurious both inside and out. For what you get, I would say it's very affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Maybe I'm cheap, but since when is $35,000.00 affordable? Compared to their other cars, it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Maybe I'm cheap, but since when is $35,000.00 affordable? By today's standards, that's pretty reasonable. It's pretty easy to price something as mainstream as a Malibu or Fusion up to that level. IIRC, the average transaction price of a new car is just over $30k today.. Edited July 27, 2014 by Rob Hall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DynoMight Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 They may. But, is economically practical? Scott Ethanol is basically a "synthetic gas" but for every gallon of ethanol made it takes 2 gallons. So it's not really economically practical. Ever notice how low the ethanol prices are? They're (the gas and ethanol companies) trying to get people to switch over to ethanol because "it's cheaper" at least right now, and then boom, ethanol prices are double that of gasoline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 But I'm talking about a purely synthetic "gasoline," not ethanol or some sort of blend. Gas made in a lab without any dinosaur juice involved. In other words, a "gas" that doesn't rely on the supply of oil and can be manufactured in unlimited quantities. With all the advances science has made, I'm kind of surprised that we don't yet know how to make a totally synthetic fuel that a typical gasoline engine can run on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabrux Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think all-electric cars are cute. Really, they are. Great for moving people around in urban areas and what not. The cross-country trip Elon Musk did recently shows promise as well. But, for what I need vehicles, for, currently electric vehicles are pretty much useless. Call me crass, old-fashioned, whatever you will. I need an all-electric half-ton pickup truck. I haul stuff around a fair bit. I have a camping trailer. I'd like to be able to load all my gear and my family in the truck, hook up to the camper, and drive to my campsite and back without having to stop halfway and charge. I want to be able to hook up to a float and tow home a project car if I want to. The technology just isn't at that level yet, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinfan5 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think its great that they are going to be offering a "more affordable" model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumi Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) But I'm talking about a purely synthetic "gasoline," not ethanol or some sort of blend. Gas made in a lab without any dinosaur juice involved. In other words, a "gas" that doesn't rely on the supply of oil and can be manufactured in unlimited quantities. With all the advances science has made, I'm kind of surprised that we don't yet know how to make a totally synthetic fuel that a typical gasoline engine can run on.Not exactly synthetic, but biodiesel has been in use for quite a while. Edited July 28, 2014 by fumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 But I'm talking about a purely synthetic "gasoline," not ethanol or some sort of blend. Gas made in a lab without any dinosaur juice involved. In other words, a "gas" that doesn't rely on the supply of oil and can be manufactured in unlimited quantities. With all the advances science has made, I'm kind of surprised that we don't yet know how to make a totally synthetic fuel that a typical gasoline engine can run on. There is coal liquifaction, turning coal into a liquid fuel that can be burned in diesel engines, but instead of using dino juice, it's turning compressed dinos into liquid fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 There is coal liquifaction, turning coal into a liquid fuel that can be burned in diesel engines, but instead of using dino juice, it's turning compressed dinos into liquid fuel. I'm talking about synthetic gas. No oil... no coal... nothing dug out of the ground. I'm talking about making "gas" from scratch in the lab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Ok, but what would be made out of? Products made in a lab start from some base elements that are of reality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Ok, but what would be made out of? Products made in a lab start from some base elements that are of reality... From 2011... UK-based Cella Energy has developed a synthetic fuel that could lead to US$1.50 per gallon gasoline. Apart from promising a future transportation fuel with a stable price regardless of oil prices, the fuel is hydrogen based and produces no carbon emissions when burned. The technology is based on complex hydrides, and has been developed over a four year top secret program at the prestigious Rutherford Appleton Laboratory near Oxford. Early indications are that the fuel can be used in existing internal combustion engined vehicles without engine modification. According to Stephen Voller CEO at Cella Energy, the technology was developed using advanced materials science, taking high energy materials and encapsulating them using a nanostructuring technique called coaxial electrospraying. “We have developed new micro-beads that can be used in an existing gasoline or petrol vehicle to replace oil-based fuels,” said Voller. “Early indications are that the micro-beads can be used in existing vehicles without engine modification.” “The materials are hydrogen-based, and so when used produce no carbon emissions at the point of use, in a similar way to electric vehicles”, said Voller. The technology has been developed over a four-year top secret programme at the prestigious Rutherford Appleton Laboratory near Oxford, UK. The development team is led by Professor Stephen Bennington in collaboration with scientists from University College London and Oxford University. Professor Bennington, Chief Scientific Officer at Cella Energy said, “our technology is based on materials called complex hydrides that contain hydrogen. When encapsulated using our unique patented process, they are safer to handle than regular gasoline.” The problem is, all of these types of articles I've found are old. No new news or progress that I have found. Seems like they are close, but not there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Ethanol is basically a "synthetic gas" but for every gallon of ethanol made it takes 2 gallons. So it's not really economically practical. Ever notice how low the ethanol prices are? They're (the gas and ethanol companies) trying to get people to switch over to ethanol because "it's cheaper" at least right now, and then boom, ethanol prices are double that of gasoline. It's old info, but this is an interesting read.http://www.extension.iastate.edu/agdm/articles/hof/hofjuly07.html Edited July 28, 2014 by Joe Handley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Doan Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Price, driving range and re-charge times (and building recharge stations) all need to improve for electric cars to really catch on. As technology marches on, it will be interesting when Nascar and Formula 1 cars are all electric and self-driving...."Drivers start your engines" will be completely obsolete! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Barrow Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 But I'm talking about a purely synthetic "gasoline," not ethanol or some sort of blend. Gas made in a lab without any dinosaur juice involved. In other words, a "gas" that doesn't rely on the supply of oil and can be manufactured in unlimited quantities. With all the advances science has made, I'm kind of surprised that we don't yet know how to make a totally synthetic fuel that a typical gasoline engine can run on. 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics probably have something to do with it. You'll never get more out of a fuel than it took to make it, so making one from scratch is pointless. Fossil fuels work because it's all the stored energy from living plants and animals that died millions of years ago. And they were converted to a fuel through natural processes But they don't come close to equaling the energy those living things took to make it, all the energy from the sun and the things they ate, or all the energy exerted from the earth (heat & pressure) that took millions of years to turn that material into fuel. We only get a fraction of all that energy back by burning it. Let's say you can turn natural gas into a fuel that a gasoline engine can burn (and you can). The new "gas" would have less energy than the natural gas it was made from had, that's the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics (in lay terms, "you can't win, and you can't break even"). Would be better to just convert the engine to run on natural gas. Just like fuel cells require more energy to convert water into hydrogen than the resulting hydrogen has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Price, driving range and re-charge times (and building recharge stations) all need to improve for electric cars to really catch on. As technology marches on, it will be interesting when Nascar and Formula 1 cars are all electric and self-driving...."Drivers start your engines" will be completely obsolete! Price will get better as the parts availability, production techniques, and numbers improve, just like with anything else, it just has to get there. Range will improve as new forms of efficeny are discovered and added, plus with improvements in battery and charging tech too. From my experience with owning a flex fuel vehicle, charging stations will likely be the biggest obstical. You have to have people interested in building places (I give Musk lots of credit for that!), as well as taking efforts to deal with opposing parties (oil companies for example) on the construction of such places. If I had the money or knew the people, I would look into doing an alternative fuel "gas station" that covered the biofuels, ev charging, and alternaive petrolium fuels. I number of those along the major corridors and in urban centers could go a long way to countering those issues for all of us that own these sorts of vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91blaze Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Sorry Harry, unfortunately fuel can't be made out of thin air. Most all synthetic fuels came from coal, crude oil, or natural gas. As stated previously, you lose energy when you take one substance and change it to another so synthetic fuels as an alternative to gasoline is really not practical. In regards to electric cars, the one major hurdle to overcome is that of batteries. Currently they are quite expensive and made of limited resource materials, however I believe it is only a matter of time before we find a better way. As far as recharging stations, I believe Tesla may have the right idea, though being able to charge anywhere with an outlet is quite convenient. Perhaps workplaces can find ways to implement charging stations that work like parking meters so you can simply put "x" amount of dollars into a meter and let your car charge while you shop, eat, or go to work. There would be problems to work around though. Just food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Sorry Harry, unfortunately fuel can't be made out of thin air. Nobody ever said it can. Did you read the story about that British university that I posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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