Foil under clear *rant*

[Pete J.]

I will not weigh in on the "over foil" issue but just about all the issues mentioned here have more to do with the application of clear and the type of clear than what you are putting it over. What I mean is that you can clear everything if done correctly. First is the color change issue. The best thing you can do is look at the paint you are using. If you look into a quart of House of Color or DuPont lacquer, it looks as clear as water all the way to the bottom. No color change. Do the same with decanted Testors and it has a yellow hew to it.

Having said that the thinner the coats the better. Some people just haven't got their techniques down and add way to much paint and you get that dipped look. That is partially due to too much paint and partially because they don't finish sand the paint. Paint by it's nature tends to build up around seams and edges and is slightly raised. You can see this on real cars but it is so small that you don't notice it. By the way if you put the paint job on your models that most real cars have it would look horrible. To get a realistic paint job the surface has to be absolutely level with no dips or high points. You do this with a sanding stick(AKA a long board for models) and then polish the paint to a high gloss. This takes effort and time but it yields the best paint job by far.

Choose your clear. Lacquer, enamel, acrylic, catalyzed, water bourn, floor polish, all have different uses and different things they work on well. You will only find out what works for your techniques by trying them. Right or wrong depends on you, not the product or what someone else does.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Pete J.

[Snake45]

Pete J, I agree with all your points 100%. I had to figure these things out for myself starting about 30 or so years ago.

I am looking for a good clear enamel that's affordable and commonly available here in Dickberg. All I ask of it, aside from its clarity, is that it stand up to rubbing alcohol (which is useful for foil adhesive cleanup and other cleanup) as well as that amber-colored Testor clear enamel topcoat does. I've got several different cans of wonderful, clear, shiny stuff (including Testor One-Coat Wet Look) but all of it is lacquer and therefore won't stand up to rubbing alcohol. Model Master Metalizer Sealer is the best stuff I've ever used but it's hard to find in my area. I'm sure I could buy a pint of this stuff at Home Depot or Lowe's for what Testor asks for a half-ounce, if I knew what it was, but the MSDS isn't a great deal of help.

[Pete J.]

Not a real solution, but I keep a small squirt bottle of half 91% alcohol and half distilled water around for cleanup. You can use it on lacquer but you have to be quick. Just a bit on a Q-tip or a piece of t-shirt cotton and work quickly. This works really well for white glues like Krystal Klear and Formula 560.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Pete J, I agree with all your points 100%. I had to figure these things out for myself starting about 30 or so years ago.

I am looking for a good clear enamel that's affordable and commonly available here in Dickberg. All I ask of it, aside from its clarity, is that it stand up to rubbing alcohol (which is useful for foil adhesive cleanup and other cleanup) as well as that amber-colored Testor clear enamel topcoat does. I've got several different cans of wonderful, clear, shiny stuff (including Testor One-Coat Wet Look) but all of it is lacquer and therefore won't stand up to rubbing alcohol. Model Master Metalizer Sealer is the best stuff I've ever used but it's hard to find in my area. I'm sure I could buy a pint of this stuff at Home Depot or Lowe's for what Testor asks for a half-ounce, if I knew what it was, but the MSDS isn't a great deal of help.

If you're looking for something for cleaning up things like foil adhesive residue that won't harm your paint, I suggest WD-40. A dab on a q-tip will remove it instantly. Just don't go crazy with it or you'll end up removing the adhesive from under the foil too! Steve

[Guest]

[url=http://s135.photobucket.com/user/mr68gts/media/57%20ford%20gasser/DSC_0363_zps47f4c9d6.jpg.html]You tell me if it looks dipped in suryp. This is actually the first one I've cleared over the foil. I did not care for it so I will be going back to my usual way of foil last. At least I tried it and formulated my own opinion of it. I can see some advantages of it but with todays foil not being as good as the original it tends to mess up the clear a bit. Part of the reason peole do it I think is the automotive clears are so slick the foil has nothing to adhear to so it tends to slide around with just a bit of handeling. I have had this happen to me before and I am carefull with how I handle my models. However judges may not be as carefull and such. Also one of the problems with clearing with automotive clear is that is tends to be thicker so it fills in the crevices that would be used as your foil lines. However if properly applied it is not an issue. I thin my clear down a bit so it doesn't do that. I didn't like it because it took away some of the shine of the foil.Paul

I say if you found a system that works for you, go with it. Here's one of my finished builds with lots of foil trim. Can you tell if I foiled it last or did I clear over it ? I'll post the answer after some guesses ..... for those that know my technique don't give it away

Both look like clear is over them, the 57 more so, the clear has made the foil look like silver paint.

[Pete J.]

If you're looking for something for cleaning up things like foil adhesive residue that won't harm your paint, I suggest WD-40. A dab on a q-tip will remove it instantly. Just don't go crazy with it or you'll end up removing the adhesive from under the foil too! Steve

Caution- Be very carful with WD-40 around a model work bench. It has a bunch of silicon in it and if you get it on the surface of an unpainted model and don't do some crazy clean up before you paint, you will get fisheyes in you paint so bad you will not believe it. I am so paranoid about it that I have band it from the same room I model in. The stuff really can screw up a paint job in a hurry!

Edited September 7, 2014 by Pete J.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Caution- Be very carful with WD-40 around a model work bench. It has a bunch of silicon in it and if you get it on the surface of an unpainted model and don't do some crazy clean up before you paint, you will get fisheyes in you paint so bad you will not believe it. I am so paranoid about it that I have band it from the same room I model in. The stuff really can screw up a paint job in a hurry!

Oh I know that Pete! Any type of oil will destroy your paint job. Even oil from your fingers can be an issue. I keep a small plastic paint container with about a half a teaspoon of "uncanted" WD in it. And I make sure I only use it in the final stages of the build when painting is done. I just like it for cleaning adhesive residue after foiling because it's so effortless to use. Takes me seconds to clean all of the foil residue from a body. Steve

[Snake45]

Thanks for the WD-40 idea. I'm going to try that on the Micro Metal Foil adhesive that I use. If it works, it could change my entire building style!

[StevenGuthmiller]

Thanks for the WD-40 idea. I'm going to try that on the Micro Metal Foil adhesive that I use. If it works, it could change my entire building style!

Not gonna guarentee anything with that. I'm refering to the adhesive used for BMF. But it's surely worth a try. Won't hurt anything. Just don't try to paint over it as Pete said. Another product that's good for removing those type of things is the old Avon product called "Skin So Soft". If you can find any. Steve

[Harry P.]

Another product that's good for removing those type of things is the old Avon product called "Skin So Soft". If you can find any.

Man, that stuff really has 1,001 uses! My wife used to use it as bug repellant on the kids!

[Mike_G]

Caution- Be very carful with WD-40 around a model work bench. It has a bunch of silicon in it and if you get it on the surface of an unpainted model and don't do some crazy clean up before you paint, you will get fisheyes in you paint so bad you will not believe it. I am so paranoid about it that I have band it from the same room I model in. The stuff really can screw up a paint job in a hurry!

There is no silicone in WD-40, it's mostly stoddard solvent with a little light petroleum oil

[Snake45]

I've thought of some other things to try taking adhesive off lacquer without removing the lacquer:

Goo Gone

Lighter fluid

Paint thinner

Kroil

Tape of some kind--masking tape, scotch tape, duck tape?

I'll try to do some experiments and report back.

Also, would something like Dawn dishwashing liquid be good for removing WD-40 residue?

[StevenGuthmiller]

Man, that stuff really has 1,001 uses! My wife used to use it as bug repellant on the kids!

I remember that too Harry! It's a little disturbing to think hat a product that was used as a skin softener & insect repellent was also such a wonderful solvent. Being in the drywall/painting business, we used it to remove masking tape residue. I've also used it to remove stickers from everything from new dishware to motorcycle windshields. Only problem is, I haven't seen the stuff in 20 years. Come to think of it, I haven't seen an Avon lady for that long. Is there such thing as Avon products any more? Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

I've thought of some other things to try taking adhesive off lacquer without removing the lacquer:

Goo Gone

Lighter fluid

Paint thinner

Kroil

Tape of some kind--masking tape, scotch tape, duck tape?

I'll try to do some experiments and report back.

Also, would something like Dawn dishwashing liquid be good for removing WD-40 residue?

I've used WD-40 & then just washed it off with dish detergent. It's not that hard to remove. Although I would still wait until your sure you're done painting before I used it, just to be on the safe side. Steve

[David G.]

I keep reading about the "dipped in syrup look".

How much clear do you guys put on?

David G.

[Tom Geiger]

I like to do my fine scripts with the foil under paint technique, in which case it's pretty hard to do without clear coating over the foil. All of the rest of my foiling I do after clear. This technique is the best I've found for foiling scripts & I can guarantee you one thing.......I'm not going back!!

It's not the end of the world if you've cleared over the scripts for the reasons stated. Perfectly reasonable. and not that noticeable on something that small.

and an aside... I've noticed a lot of guys don't understand the foil under paint technique. The aim is to foil the scripts as if you were foiling them on top of your final paint coat... that is perfectly trimmed around the letters. I see too many models where the builder just put a jagged large piece of BMF over the scripts, some how thinking that the entire huge piece of foil would disappear under the paint.

[Snake45]

I'm talking about the residue from Micro Metal Foil Adhesive, which is some pretty serious stuff...VERY sticky (or it wouldn't be any good) but it comes right off with rubbing alcohol...unfortunately so does all the new Testors lacquers, which I otherwise like VERY much.

Oh, BTW, I'm finding that many of the Krylon and Rustoleum "fast dry enamels" must be lacquers, too, because they also come off with rubbing alcohol. Nearly ruined a great rubbed out paint job on a GTO discovering THAT little fact.

[StevenGuthmiller]

I've never had a problem with BMF leaving residue. But, then I never burnish past the edge of the trim I'm covering either. If I polish a body, I polish the trim right along with it. If I don't polish, I go over the trim with 2000 then 4000 grit before I foil it. The smoother the surface you're covering is, the smoother your foil will be.

I burnish the hell out of the trim when I'm foiling & a lot of times the hard rubbing will take off any residue it leaves, but most of the time I'll still find black smudges here & there that is leftover adhesive that didn't get rubbed off. More buffing will generally remove that but the WD is much quicker. I do all of my paint polishing before foiling. That will help polish the trim you're about to foil so it's nice & smooth. Areas such as windshield frames & vent windows as well as larger areas such as rocker trim, I'll sand as well. You're correct, the smoother the surface & the more you burnish, the smoother the foil job. Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

It's not the end of the world if you've cleared over the scripts for the reasons stated. Perfectly reasonable. and not that noticeable on something that small.

and an aside... I've noticed a lot of guys don't understand the foil under paint technique. The aim is to foil the scripts as if you were foiling them on top of your final paint coat... that is perfectly trimmed around the letters. I see too many models where the builder just put a jagged large piece of BMF over the scripts, some how thinking that the entire huge piece of foil would disappear under the paint.

I found out about that big piece of foil under the paint the hard way a long time ago Tom. Not only may it leave an edge that's noticeable, I also found that the color of the paint over the foil may differ from the rest of the body. Yes.....I agree, cut you're foil as close as possible to the script. Another good thing to try is if you don't like the way your scripts look after clear coats, (ie. not shiny enough) you could always use the same technique & clean the clear off of the script with some thinner. Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

I'm talking about the residue from Micro Metal Foil Adhesive, which is some pretty serious stuff...VERY sticky (or it wouldn't be any good) but it comes right off with rubbing alcohol...unfortunately so does all the new Testors lacquers, which I otherwise like VERY much.

Oh, BTW, I'm finding that many of the Krylon and Rustoleum "fast dry enamels" must be lacquers, too, because they also come off with rubbing alcohol. Nearly ruined a great rubbed out paint job on a GTO discovering THAT little fact.

I would definately at least try the WD-40. It might be the answer you're looking for. Steve

[Pete J.]

There is no silicone in WD-40, it's mostly stoddard solvent with a little light petroleum oil

Ok, I learned something about WD-40, but it is still one of the best things for screwing up a paint job and after it had done it's worst, you need to take all the paint off down to bare plastic and soak it in a good degreaser like super clean. As I said, it just the devil incarnate in a model shop.

[StevenGuthmiller]

I've got a million different things in my shop that would screw up a paint job Pete, including Super clean, oven cleaner, paint thinners, airbrush cleaners, brake fluid, a hundred different kinds of solvents & cleaners etc. I just refrain from spraying down my work bench with them before I paint. I never discriminate against a useful tool because of what it might do. I just use precautions. Steve

[Pete J.]

Steve, your right. I also have a lot of things just like you, but in the last 25 years(I got back into building when my son was little) I have found the WD-40 travels when you spray it as an aerosol. Lubricating anything with it fills the air with very tiny particles and they seem to be attracted to the surface of plastic. I am not sure if they have a static charge or what. The droplets are so small that to spot them on the surface of a model seems to be impossible until they show up as a giant fisheye. Unfortunately, my model bench has to share the room with my general shop, so a lot of things go on in the room(it is actually a one car garage) so I try to limit what gets in the air. Spray lubricants of any type just don't get used in that area but I have has far too many issues with WD-40 to even allow a can of it in the room.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Steve, your right. I also have a lot of things just like you, but in the last 25 years(I got back into building when my son was little) I have found the WD-40 travels when you spray it as an aerosol. Lubricating anything with it fills the air with very tiny particles and they seem to be attracted to the surface of plastic. I am not sure if they have a static charge or what. The droplets are so small that to spot them on the surface of a model seems to be impossible until they show up as a giant fisheye. Unfortunately, my model bench has to share the room with my general shop, so a lot of things go on in the room(it is actually a one car garage) so I try to limit what gets in the air. Spray lubricants of any type just don't get used in that area but I have has far too many issues with WD-40 to even allow a can of it in the room.

Understandible Pete. I don't keep WD in the aerosol can in my shop either. I keep a small container for cleaning with a q-tip. The only thing that I spray in my shop is primer & paint. Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

The point I was making is if you don't burnish the foil where you don't want it to be, there won't be any residue to clean up. As soon as I have the edge of the trim established and burnished, I trim the excess off. Then, I give the foil a final burnish and polish with a cotton cloth. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you don't allow the residue to get on the paint in the first place, you don't have to worry about getting it off. There's no way I'll risk using WD-40 or anything else on a paint job after I have it polished and foiled.

I got ya Roger. I do the same thing. I get the foil layed down just tight enough to trim it before I start burnishing. But I still get a little adhesive surounding it. Any place that the foil makes contact with the paint it will leave a tiny amount of adhesive behind. Then as you rub it down, it will gather in corners, recessed areas around scripts etc. Depending on paint color, you'll never see it, but I always find a few areas on pretty much every build. Maybe I'm rubbing more or I could be just getting foil with too much adhesive on it, but either way, it needs to be cleaned off & the WD-40 has always worked well for me. Steve