The Why's Of Scale Modelling My Opinion on Stuff

[raildogg]

Yes, we all want stuff to be made, but. IMHO, It will never be done. We keep buying the same old kits over and over and over, and they never stop re issuing them, right. Just how many Mustangs do you really need. Does one in every color satisfy you? Aren't there enough 57' Chevy's out, or Jr's NASCAR edition, what about a "new" General Lee, It's much less expensive to do this for the manufacturers, but they don't even update or upgrade the molds, I mean really. I am of the opinion that this is why we don't get interesting kits. Printed kits or parts aren't the answer either, have you noticed the surface quality!! I myself have got a filament printer almost ready to go that I intend to use for prototyping of model parts.

Resin cottage makers address some of this but still they're just 32'Fords or 36' Chevy's. I want to see more modern and correct tire and wheel sets, better trucks, both pickups and big rigs. More odd items, construction equipment, front end loaders, road graders, dump trucks. Why won't they re issue those kits, they sold once they'll sell again. I know, it's just my rant but, many of us have echoed these issues before and we still go out and buy another Ford Model T or Chevy Sedan.

[w451973]

Be careful. I just learned we are not saposed to question these things. I personally don't understand continuously reissuing the same kits over and over again myself when there are still so many varients of the same kits easily available on the market. Such as the 72 GTO, 68-69 Camaro's and 57 Chevies. I see craploads of these things set day in and day out on store shelves. And almost everybody has internet capabillities and knows about ebay. Yet reissues are still being made. There seems to be money for that yet I mention tooling up new tires and I get pounced on.

[southpier]

someone should start a "wish-list" thread and then it could be forwarded to the manufacturers.

(I'm still on-board for a '56 Volkswagen)

[Harry P.]

They keep reissuing the same kits over and over again because we keep buying them. Simple as that. If nobody bought them, they'd stop reissuing them!

If they reissued yet another '57 Chevy or '32 Ford and they didn't sell, the manufacturers would take notice. But as long as we keep buying the same old reissued kits over and over again, they'll keep coming, because a reissue is almost all profit... the tooling has been paid off a long time ago.

[Greg Myers]

There seems to be money for that

It's called Marketing.

[Greg Myers]

and there's more to come.

[peekay]

What about Revell's 50 Olds and Mercury Woody or Mobius' Hudsons and Chryslers? All subjects I'd given up hoping for.

Or ICM's Opel and Mercedes Staff Cars and Ebbro's Citroen 2CV Fourgonette and Renault 4CV. Who could have seen those coming?

[Snake45]

I wish I had a buck for every time I've read this exact same thread on the model airplane boards, just substitute "Me-109s, P-51s and Spitfires" for "32 Fords, 57 Chevies and '69 Camaros." I could go out and buy a whole bunch more '57 Chevies and '69 Camaros! (Hey, some things you just never get tired of.)

[Brett Barrow]

I wish I had a buck for every time I've read this exact same thread on the model airplane boards, just substitute "Me-109s, P-51s and Spitfires" for "32 Fords, 57 Chevies and '69 Camaros." I could go out and buy a whole bunch more '57 Chevies and '69 Camaros! (Hey, some things you just never get tired of.)

We need to teach them about the legendary Farley Fruitbat!

You could tell me I couldn't build anything but 57 Chevys, 32 Fords, and 69 Camaros and I'd be fine with that. There are several 57 Chevys I wish they'd do - a 150 Handyman wagon, sedan delivery, 210 2 door sedan, any of the tri fives that were popular as Junior Stockers, really. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of Revell's new-tool Tri Fives were ever done before - 55 Bel Air hardtop & convertible, 56 Nomad & 210 Del Ray, 57 150, Bel Air 2 door sedan & convertible.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[Snake45]

We need to teach them about the legendary Farley Fruitbat!

You could tell me I couldn't build anything but 57 Chevys, 32 Fords, and 69 Chevys and I'd be fine with that. There are several 57 Chevys I wish they'd do - a 150 Handyman wagon, sedan delivery, 210 2 door sedan, any of the tri fives that were popular as Junior Stockers, really. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of Revell's new-tool Tri Fives were ever done before - 55 Bel Air hardtop & convertible, 56 Nomad & 210 Del Ray, 57 150, Bel Air 2 door sedan & convertible.

I think I could live with that if you'd throw in '63-'67 Corvettes. And expand the '69 Camaros to all first-gens.

But you're so right about tri-five Chevies. I just finished one and have at least four (maybe more, I'd have to count) in some stage of construction at the moment and actually hope to finish in the near future. And can think of at least a dozen after those that I'd like to do.

Here's one now. A Walmart diecast, I'll be turning it from a hideous "West Coast Chopper" lowrider into a legitimate street cruiser with plenty of '60s attitude. You say it's a "valuable collector's item"? The "collectors" should thank me because I'm about to make all theirs just that much more valuable. :lol:

[southpier]

love the Dagmars!

[martinfan5]

Now, I could be wrong since I am not an "insider" , but reissues help pay for new tools, you have to figure that depending on how old the kit is, the company has made its money back, (or close to it) on that kit, so when the kit is reissued, its pretty much all profit at that point, think of it as fund raising for future projects.

Round2 I think has gone back and fix/updated some recent tools on reissued kits, and I know people have been very happy about that, and for a lot of people, maybe missed out on the first runs of kits, so its nice to have some kits reissued , but yes, I agree, sometimes it gets old seeing the same kit reissued time after time, but like already mentioned, if the kit brings in money, then why not right?.

[Ramfins59]

Personally, I've built 1 '57 Chevy (last year) and 2 Mustangs, a large scale '64 1/2 and a 1/25 scale '67. The Mustangs were built about 20 years ago. I doubt if I'll build any more of either. The only car that I've built more than i of is a '59 Dodge using Johan promos and that's because I used to own one.

I'm probably in the minority but I usually will not build the same car more than once so the model mfgrs. won't be making any bucks from me when they keep reissuing them.

[Art Anderson]

They keep reissuing the same kits over and over again because we keep buying them. Simple as that. If nobody bought them, they'd stop reissuing them!

If they reissued yet another '57 Chevy or '32 Ford and they didn't sell, the manufacturers would take notice. But as long as we keep buying the same old reissued kits over and over again, they'll keep coming, because a reissue is almost all profit... the tooling has been paid off a long time ago.

I suspect that choosing any car subject for a new model kit, especially if the car in question has never before been produced as a model kit, is very much a gamble, and one that involves putting a lot of money on the table. While there are a lot of automotive subjects that are as near to a sure thing as can be, many if not most have already been kitted, some subjects several times over the years. Given the serious dollar investment in any new tooling (while the investment by a Ford, a GM, a Toyota is HUGE, so is the investment that has to be made by a model company, in comparison to its size when compared to the vast resources available to a 1:1 scale automaker), the decision to make a new set of tooling is not taken lightly, not made on mere whims. There are many car subjects that have been and still are, perennial winners--trouble is, it's harder and harder to find that "key to Ft Knox" subject matter any more (which makes it amazing that some of the once-esoteric subject matter we've seen in new model kits over the past 5-10 years pretty astounding!). In all dicussions such as this topic, it should always be considered that injection-molded model kits simply have to be mass-produced, and sold in rather large numbers if the companies that make them are to succeed, move forward to the next new subject--and those mass sales aren't merely a given--serious consideration just has to be given to just what subjects will do that.

As for reissues being almost all profit, that's truly an urban legend--a reissued kit has significant costs involved just to bring it back to production in many cases. Just because the tooling was made, and hopefully amortized does not mean it's any sort of cash cow. With very few exceptions, a reissued kit never sells in numbers like it may have when first introduced--it will sell in numbers that are only a percentage of what it did the first time around--that's been a fact of life in the plastic model kit industry for decades now. And, the payback to the company of the $$ spent to create that tooling is only part of the equation--one has to factor in the costs of bringing an older tool (molds if you will) back to life again---there are often issues involved that require a toolmaker, certainly a millwright, licensing, more than likely new packaging. In addition, the mold presses that such tooling is loaded into did not come free of charge--those have to be paid for, and eventually a new one purchased. Also, unless the model company in question is no longer adding any new tooling (new subject matter), then there is the accumulation of funds for that next new tooling has to be considered. And of course, the cost of the labor involved after the plastic parts are spit out of the machinery, along with transportation etc. have to be factored in--and still yet, all those unavoidable fixed costs. With all this, that reissued model kit had danged well produce some profit, otherwise, why even think about bringing it back out again?

Art

[sjordan2]

It appears to me that the world of 1:1 general production cars has let down the modeling industry by producing few modern cars in any numbers that generate the kind of interest that the old Camaros, '57 Chevies, original Chargers and other muscle cars did -- and that keep getting reissued as noted above. The current Challenger and Charger Hellcat versions might get some interest, along with the upcoming 'cuda. But it seems like the European market for supercar Ferraris, Lamborghinis, along with Asia, are running the show for new kits.

Edited September 8, 2014 by sjordan2

[Tom Geiger]

When you take into the proper perspective that we all serious model lifers are 1% of the kit market...

The manufacturers will always cater to the other 99% of the market. Those are the less serious builders, the guy who will buy an occasional kit. That guy doesn't have a vast automotive knowledge. He can identify a Corvette, a '32 Ford and a '57 Chevy. Put a Packard or 1950 Oldsmobile in front of him and he can't identify it. Pick up a generic car calendar at Hallmark or Walmart.. it will be full of those belly button cars because that's what the general public knows about cars. Also, we will buy and build one 1958 Plymouth kit, but we will always have another idea for a '32 Ford or '57 Chevy. Why? Because of their overall popularity and presence in the media. Thus, they make popular subjects for models.

Saying that the existing tooling is owned scott free is wrong. The tooling was created by a company 50 years ago that no longer exists. It has been sold and resold each time that company changes hands. For the AMT tooling for instance, it's now owned by Round 2. They bought it maybe 5 years ago so each and every piece of that tooling has debt associated with it. For instance, take a house built in 1950. The original owner paid $5000 for it and if they still owned it, it would be owned debt free. But that house has appreciated in value along with inflation. It has changed hands several times. The current owner bought it 5 years ago for $300,000 and has a $250,000 mortgage loan on it. Same deal.

So a company like Round 2 cannot let tooling just sit around. It has to earn it's keep. Thus they will try to reissue that kit as often as the market allows. Guess what? Their market research shows that the average modeler... that 99% of their market, only sticks with the hobby a year or two. So if they reissue that kit every two years, the theory is that it's brand new to the majority of the market that they serve. Forget us crazies... we are less than 1% and just don't count in these numbers.

Still to Art's post, a new issue tool will result in 125,000 kits being pressed. A reissue can be as small as 2500 kits, often in multiples of that like 5,000 7,500 or 10,000 units. And that's not a lot of units. In the heyday of the hobby in the late 1960s kits would sell a millon copies.

[Harry P.]

Obviously there are costs associated with reissuing a kit. But the single largest cost... the design and engineering and tooling... has been bought and paid for, especially on kits that have been reissued several times.

But the fact remains that a kit manufacturer will make more profit per unit on a reissued kit than on a newly designed, engineered and tooled kit. So like I said... as long as people keep buying reissued kits, they're going to keep on selling reissued kits. It's not rocket science, it's Business 101.

[w451973]

We need to teach them about the legendary Farley Fruitbat!

You could tell me I couldn't build anything but 57 Chevys, 32 Fords, and 69 Camaros and I'd be fine with that. There are several 57 Chevys I wish they'd do - a 150 Handyman wagon, sedan delivery, 210 2 door sedan, any of the tri fives that were popular as Junior Stockers, really. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of Revell's new-tool Tri Fives were ever done before - 55 Bel Air hardtop & convertible, 56 Nomad & 210 Del Ray, 57 150, Bel Air 2 door sedan & convertible.

Thats you. Thats not everybody. The vast majority gets bored with the same subject matter day in and day out.

[Harry P.]

Thats you. Thats not everybody. The vast majority gets bored with the same subject matter day in and day out.

I agree with you. I've been building models for over 40 years and so far have never built the same kit more than once.

[w451973]

They keep reissuing the same kits over and over again because we keep buying them. Simple as that. If nobody bought them, they'd stop reissuing them!

If they reissued yet another '57 Chevy or '32 Ford and they didn't sell, the manufacturers would take notice. But as long as we keep buying the same old reissued kits over and over again, they'll keep coming, because a reissue is almost all profit... the tooling has been paid off a long time ago.

So why do so many of them set on store shelves for so long only to be disscounted for quick sale later ? Or for that matter why are there so many of them for sale on ebay continuously week to week with no sales, by the same seller. Sure logic would say they would'nt make them if we did'nt buy them but how can you explain the flooded market ? Just like you mentioned in another post about inaccuracies in this day and age of computers. Logic says it should'nt be a problem but yet it still is huh ?

Edited September 8, 2014 by w451973

[LaughingIndian]

Dustin Hoffman was told over 4 decades ago that the future is "plastics."

Today, we modelers know it is "3d printing."

Imagine a 1/12 GT40 on a $7 DVR.

Fear not ... except for the initial (future) cost of a hi res printer

[w451973]

Don't get me wrong here. I am not against reissuing stuff, hell no, I am extremely grateful they are. That way I can get new kits of the ones I screwed up as a kid without putting someones kid thru collage trying to buy it. And even better being able to get kits of things I would'nt have bought as a kid. I just don't see the need to reissue a kit of something you can still buy on the open market in almost all it's various issues. IE the AMT 57 Chevy or the MPC/AMT 1969 442. It's been reboxed a few different times so there would be no need to reissue it because there are still too many out there. Now in the case of the 69 Hurst/Olds, even tho it was also reboxed several times at least the latest was updated. Still too many out there and easy to get so there really is'nt much call for it.

[w451973]

Dustin Hoffman was told over 4 decades ago that the future is "plastics."

Today, we modelers know it is "3d printing."

Imagine a 1/12 GT40 on a $7 DVR.

Fear not ... except for the initial (future) cost of a hi res printer

And it's gonna be real interesting to see what the future of that brings.

[Brett Barrow]

So why do so many of them set on store shelves for so long only to be disscounted for quick sale later ? Or for that matter why are there so many of them for sale on ebay continuously week to week with no sales, by the same seller. Sure logic would say they would'nt make them if we did'nt buy them but how can you explain the flooded market ? Just like you mentioned in another post about inaccuracies in this day and age of computers. Logic says it should'nt be a problem but yet it still is huh ?

Simple. The manufacturers sell to distributors, who then sell to retailers, who then sell to you. The manufacturers and distributors will have already gotten paid for it by the time you see it on a store shelf, or on eBay. They've already sold it to the people they need to sell it to, who then need to sell it to you. Granted, the better something sells to consumers the more re-orders will be placed for that item, so it's in everybody's best interest to do subjects that are in demand and not total dogs.

[Art Anderson]

Obviously there are costs associated with reissuing a kit. But the single largest cost... the design and engineering and tooling... has been bought and paid for, especially on kits that have been reissued several times.

But the fact remains that a kit manufacturer will make more profit per unit on a reissued kit than on a newly designed, engineered and tooled kit. So like I said... as long as people keep buying reissued kits, they're going to keep on selling reissued kits. It's not rocket science, it's Business 101.

And, an often-overlooked fact of the model kit business is: Today's sales of kits (both new and REISSUES) funds next year's new tooling. Truthfully, banks almost never loan money for new model kit tooling--so that next new model car kit you see in all likelihood was self-funded by the manufacturer themselves.

Art