AMT vs (old) Revell Buick V8s

[jbwelda]

with the coming new tool Revell Buick nailhead V8 that should be coming out soon, I thought I would see if I could get some clarity on the situation of existing Buick mills.

The two main ones I know of would be the old AMT nailhead that came with the 40 Ford that has been reissued over and over again for half a century, and the equally ubiquitous Revell "Parts Pack" V8, which has been most available over the years via the Tommy Ivo Showboat (with four engines per).

I have built both of these basically for display by themselves and in doing so I have noticed a big difference in outside dimension. are these supposed to be the same displacement engines? or is the Revell meant to be the much smaller lighter aluminum block of later years vs the more boat anchor characteristics of the AMT offering?

take a look at the photos here, I placed a ruler nearby to help gauge size but its not too effective, but it does help a bit. the AMT is much bigger, much chunkier, not just in width but also overall bulk. the Revell is much more delicate looking and way narrower most obviously, but it is as long or even longer (not counting transmission) than the AMT.

its gonna be great to get a new tool of this motor, its always been pretty much my favorite mill for a street rod.

AMT 40 Ford:

Revell Parts Pack/Ivo Showboat:

and a direct comparison of the two:

sorry for the poor angle of engine to ruler, can't really tell how wide the Revell one is but it is at least 2 mm narrower than the AMT.

of course neither engine above is stock out of the box, both have been enhanced with Replicas and Miniatures of Maryland induction systems, strombergs on the AMT and webers on the Revell, and the exhaust headers are just in position with white glue for eventual replacement if and when the engines end up in cars.

the point is, are these supposed to be the same engines or are they meant to be different generation/size blocks?

jb

edit: thanks for pointing out I had the wrong source kit, the Ivo Showboat not the Thompson Challenger. and now that I actually think about it I believe the version I used here was from the Tony Nancy kit, it is all kinda academic because I pulled the blocks and accessories out of my parts box instead of straight out of the kit(s) so it was all a guess anyhow.

Edited February 12, 2015 by jbwelda

[Ace-Garageguy]

The Revell parts-pack nailhead is found in the Tommy Ivo "Showboat" (not the Challenger) though the Showboat version has different oil pans to accommodate the angled mountings, and different bellhousings. Both versions only come with slightly underscale Hilborn-style injection setups. There's another blown version of Revell's nailhead in the Tony Nancy double dragster kit.

Thompson's Challenger ran 4 Pontiac engines...also available in a parts-pack version. Again, the Challenger version is different, having a full-length deep sump oil pan, and a chain-drive for the blower, plus different fuel and ignition parts.

The only other decent nailhead (the '40 Ford version bites) is in the AMT '66 Buick Rivera. It features 2X4bbl carbs, and factory front cover, accessories, etc. There is a fairly good AMT version in the old Willys / '32 sedan double kit, but they're getting rare and pricey.

The Revell and AMT '66 Riv nailheads are pretty close dimensionally.

Yes, the Revell and AMT engines represent the cast-iron GEN1 OHV engines of similar architecture built from '53-'66 (264-322-364-401-425) and NOT the later 215 alloy engines or their derivatives.

The little 215 Buick/Olds went on to become the basis of the Repco SOHC F1 engines in the series winning Brabham F1 cars of '66-67.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Fat Brian]

Probably the best truly Buick engine to date is the 425 from AMT's 66 Riviera kit but it's a little past the glory days of hot rodding.

[Casey]

Previous info here, too: http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=81089&page=1#entry1056108

[jbwelda]

thanks for the correx Bill, I modified my post above to more reflect reality rather than my increasingly faulty memory!

jb

[Ace-Garageguy]

thanks for the correx Bill, I modified my post above to more reflect reality rather than my increasingly faulty memory!

jb

Don't feel bad JB...I can'r remember anything that's actually important.

[jbwelda]

so you are saying the two engines above are meant to model the same engine, but the AMT one is way off dimensionally. additionally, the external size of the real engine did not vary much despite its ever increasing cubic inch dimension.

and yeah I have the Riv too but I have not built that motor since back in the days of my youth. I do know that AMT forty ford is pretty much junk all around but I have a fond place for it in my heart again from back in the day when I must have built (and subsequently blown to smithereens with firecrackers and/or glue) a dozen of them. I happened to have one nearby when I had the urge to build a nailhead and it was one kit I didn't mind cannibalizing for the mill

jb

[Ace-Garageguy]

so you are saying the two engines above are meant to model the same engine, but the AMT one is way off dimensionally. additionally, the external size of the real engine did not vary much despite its ever increasing cubic inch dimension.

The Revell and the AMT Riv engines are pretty close to the same size. I just compared them, but not the klugey '40 ford version.

The bore-spacing of all the nailheads was the same (just like you get 265 Chevys and 283 and 302 and 327 and 350 & 400 Chevys in a very similar looking basic engine) but the deck height was higher on the bigger ones with longer strokes. Buick designed the engine initially to accommodate increases in displacement, but to still be manufactured using the same machine tooling.

[Snake45]

The AMT '66 Riv engine is pretty good but also pretty rare. I think I have the parts to get one, maybe two of them together. I liked the FI setup on that, but I've lost some of the tubes on mine.

How does the engine in the '66 Wildcat compare? I have that kit but have never taken a good look at the engine.

Couple years ago I started a "good" resto of an original AMT '66 Skylark. It didn't have an engine so I swiped one from the '65 Riv. I filled the axle hole but that's about as far as I got with it. Only thing wrong is it's a 2X4 engine and I don't think dual carbs were available on the '66 GS Skylark.

ETA: Stupid me. I thought y'all were talking about the original annual '66 Riv engine, and you were obviously talking about the new-tool kit. Never mind.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Snake45

[ZTony8]

The Wildcat,along with the old tool Riviera, and the (late tool) Riviera are very different sizes.I don't have dimensions handy to check which one might be closer to correct scale.The new tool engine always looked too small to my untrained eye.

[Mark]

All of the AMT annual kit engines (Rivieras, Wildcats, '66 Skylark, Electra 225s) have axle holes in the blocks. The '61-'62 engine is EXTREMELY simplified (even has the exhaust manifolds molded to the block halves). If I remember right, only seven or eight parts make up the whole thing. That one might be based on the engine from the rare '60 Buick chassis promo.

One other really good Buick mill hasn't been mentioned: the one from the AMT double kit with the custom '32 Ford sedan and '40 Willys coupe. That' an easy one to overlook though, because it hasn't been available in a kit in nearly fifty years. If you turn one up, grab it, it's pretty good.

Nobody ever did a decent aluminum-block compact V8, either the Oldsmobile or Buick version. The AMT Buick Special wagons didn't include stock engines, and the Jo-Han Olds F-85 blocks are again simplified. The AMT ZZR/Firebug kit had two Buick engines, but those are really simplified (split two-piece block/heads/oil pan/intake). There's a cast metal Rover V8 in 1/24 scale though.

[jbwelda]

then there is the nailhead in the Uncertain T but that is getting difficult to find

jb

be interesting to see what this new one is like compared to all the old ones.

jb

[mrknowetall]

I'm thinking the Buick engine found in AMT's '40 coupe is actually a 322" version.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.racingjunk.com/ui/2/37/30519372-199-Nailhead-Buick-322-engine.jpg

[Ace-Garageguy]

One other really good Buick mill hasn't been mentioned: the one from the AMT double kit with the custom '32 Ford sedan and '40 Willys coupe.

Mentioned in post #2: "There is a fairly good AMT version in the old Willys / '32 sedan double kit, but they're getting rare and pricey."

There's also a decent-looking (when built and detailed) nailhead in the old Monogram Orange Hauler kit. Though it's supposed to be 1/24, it measures in at roughly the same size as the other good 1/25 ones mentioned here. Interesting thing about it is that it's backed up with a Dynaflow automatic.

[Can-Con]

The one thing that bugs me about the current '66 Riviera kit engine is the lack of a pan for the valley beneath the intake manifold. Just seems like a part missing since the rest of it is so nicely done.

Some BUICK lettering for the sides of the valve covers would have been nice also but not as big a deal to me.

[Jaguar man 21]

I how I love the buick/rover v8 it's my favorite engine

[72 Charger]

I was just about to say (Is that the Rover 3.5 V8 ) Didn't the Anglia gasser come with that engine too?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Didn't the Anglia gasser come with that engine too?

Nope. The Anglia and Thames panel came with injected first-generation Oldsmobile OHV V8 engines (303-324-371-394). But based on the valve covers and the derivation of the Anglia kit engine from the Revell Stone Woods Cook Willys blown Olds engine, it's probably supposed to represent a 394. All the engines in the first gen Oldsmobile OHV series are visually very similar, and can pass for each other with small detail changes.

The Revell first generation Olds OHV engine makes another appearance in the Ed Roth "Beatnik Bandit" kit, but with a 4-71 blower topped with carbs rather than the 6-71 blown and injected version in the Willys.

As far as I'm aware, the old Revell Oldsmobile engine was never available in a parts pack version.

The Olds 303 in the recent Revell '50 Olds club coupe is an entirely retooled version, and shares nothing with the earlier kit engines (though they're all quite accurately scaled and parts like manifolds and headers will interchange with a little fine fitting).

Edited February 16, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy