Automotive acrylic enamel???

[2zwudz]

Would automotive acrylic enamel paint be ok to use on a plastic model?

[64SS350]

Yes, just be sure to use an automotive type primer under it. Like Duplicolor or the like. Many have even used base coat/clear coat. 

Actually, MCW paints are PPG based.

Here's a couple of mine

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by 64SS350

[2zwudz]

1 hour ago, 64SS350 said:

Yes, just be sure to use an automotive type primer under it. Like Duplicolor or the like. Many have even used base coat/clear coat. 

Actually, MCW paints are PPG based.

Here's a couple of mine

 

Nice!!! Did you clear coat over the decals???

[64SS350]

No, I did not.

[Dave G.]

Acrylic enamel tends to dry with a slight haze compared with alkyd enamels. I shot a lot of both in 1/1 painting. There is a high gloss hardener that can be used in acrylic enamel but aware that it contains isocyanates  which chemically cures the paint whether it be on your model or in your lungs. So prepare for proper evacuation of both particulates and fumes and use a good respirator. Also note that these chemicals can enter your system by way of your eyes and skin, though in modeling the quantity air born is minimal.

As to automotive paint in use on models, it can work. To my eye though, metallics unless the 1/1 had very fine metallic flecks in the paint come out looking like metal flake rather than metallic paint. The flakes are not even close to scale in size to my eye, ruining an otherwise nice paint job. For what you have to pay to get a small quantity mixed, you could contact scale Finishes and get an exact match with scale flake in either regular enamel or lacquer. Just my opinion from someone not adversed to shooting what ever works lol ( craft paints, lacquers, enamels etc)......

Edited December 5, 2019 by Dave G.

[64SS350]

Granted the metallic is "not to scale" if you will, but I can get 4oz. of color (even straight colors) for as much as 1 small bottle from the other guys.

[Dave G.]

24 minutes ago, 64SS350 said:

Granted the metallic is "not to scale" if you will, but I can get 4oz. of color (even straight colors) for as much as 1 small bottle from the other guys.

Shoot away if you enjoy using it, just pointing out the facts to the unknowing. Obviously you are aware, you do a nice job putting them down and like the results. Not for me to say anything negative on a personal level, that's why I said "to my eye".

[LL3 Model Worx]

59 minutes ago, 64SS350 said:

Granted the metallic is "not to scale" if you will, but I can get 4oz. of color (even straight colors) for as much as 1 small bottle from the other guys.

Yup those "other guys" are making considerable profit... 

Let's take a gallon of unreduced basecoat (straight color) from one of the "high end" buzzword names like ppg or HOK... (I mixed this stuff "professionally" for about 16yrs) let's say you paid $250 for gallon.

By the time you reduce a gallon for 1:1 use, you have 2 gallons sprayable... a thinned gallon is enough for most cars if the painter is any good.

So in the case of modeling you reduce even more than for 1:1 but let's stick to the 1:1 ratio.

That's 128 2oz bottles of paint... at 9.99 per bottle (scale finishes) so you are making nearly 1000 dollars profit from a single gallon of paint.

If you count reducer/ and flake you may be looking at $900-950.

Darn good money...

Oops, I forgot to account for bottles and packaging...

Profit may go down to $800 a gallon.

Still...

Edited December 5, 2019 by LL3 Model Worx

[Dave G.]

29 minutes ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

Yup those "other guys" are making considerable profit... 

Let's take a gallon of unreduced basecoat (straight color) from one of the "high end" buzzword names like ppg or HOK... (I mixed this stuff "professionally" for about 16yrs) let's say you paid $250 for gallon.

By the time you reduce a gallon for 1:1 use, you have 2 gallons sprayable... a thinned gallon is enough for most cars if the painter is any good.

So in the case of modeling you reduce even more than for 1:1 but let's stick to the 1:1 ratio.

That's 128 2oz bottles of paint... at 9.99 per bottle (scale finishes) so you are making nearly 1000 dollars profit from a single gallon of paint.

If you count reducer/ and flake you may be looking at $900-950.

Darn good money...

Oops, I forgot to account for bottles and packaging...

Profit may go down to $800 a gallon.

Still...

 I found a dead ringer craft paint for the 39 Ford sedan I did recently if shot over dark grey primer. Then clear coat. I think I paid $.95 for 2 oz lol !! But like you I'm not adverse to mixing paints, having shot 1/1. To me if you're clearing anyway, base coat is just color. Just sayin, this is the flip side to my other post .

[LL3 Model Worx]

Just now, Dave G. said:

 I found a dead ringer craft paint for the 39 Ford sedan I did recently if shot over dark grey primer. Then clear coat. I think I paid $.95 for 2 oz lol !! But like you I'm not adverse to mixing paints, having shot 1/1. To me if you're clearing anyway, base coat is just color. Just sayin, this is the flip side to my other post .

100% agree brother. Besides prep and application outweigh the product being used 99% of the time.

What are you clearing over craft paint with just curious... lacquer?

[2zwudz]

2 hours ago, Dave G. said:

Acrylic enamel tends to dry with a slight haze compared with alkyd enamels. I shot a lot of both in 1/1 painting. There is a high gloss hardener that can be used in acrylic enamel but aware that it contains isocyanates  which chemically cures the paint whether it be on your model or in your lungs. So prepare for proper evacuation of both particulates and fumes and use a good respirator. Also note that these chemicals can enter your system by way of your eyes and skin, though in modeling the quantity air born is minimal.

As to automotive paint in use on models, it can work. To my eye though, metallics unless the 1/1 had very fine metallic flecks in the paint come out looking like metal flake rather than metallic paint. The flakes are not even close to scale in size to my eye, ruining an otherwise nice paint job. For what you have to pay to get a small quantity mixed, you could contact scale Finishes and get an exact match with scale flake in either regular enamel or lacquer. Just my opinion from someone not adversed to shooting what ever works lol ( craft paints, lacquers, enamels etc)......

Thank you!!!

[64SS350]

1 hour ago, Dave G. said:

Shoot away if you enjoy using it, just pointing out the facts to the unknowing. Obviously you are aware, you do a nice job putting them down and like the results. Not for me to say anything negative on a personal level, that's why I said "to my eye".

Didn't take it personally...just know that some guys are super anal about scale and correctiveness to matching 1:1.

And didn't think about the price breakdown per gallon as pointed out, that's definitely good money!

[Dave G.]

2 hours ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

100% agree brother. Besides prep and application outweigh the product being used 99% of the time.

What are you clearing over craft paint with just curious... lacquer?

I use lacquer or Tamiya acrylic clear thinned with lacquer thinner depending on the look I want. They are different, the Tamiya x-22 is more a wet look. But on the other hand I only like polishing so much lol.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Dave G.

[StevenGuthmiller]

13 hours ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

Yup those "other guys" are making considerable profit... 

Let's take a gallon of unreduced basecoat (straight color) from one of the "high end" buzzword names like ppg or HOK... (I mixed this stuff "professionally" for about 16yrs) let's say you paid $250 for gallon.

By the time you reduce a gallon for 1:1 use, you have 2 gallons sprayable... a thinned gallon is enough for most cars if the painter is any good.

So in the case of modeling you reduce even more than for 1:1 but let's stick to the 1:1 ratio.

That's 128 2oz bottles of paint... at 9.99 per bottle (scale finishes) so you are making nearly 1000 dollars profit from a single gallon of paint.

If you count reducer/ and flake you may be looking at $900-950.

Darn good money...

Oops, I forgot to account for bottles and packaging...

Profit may go down to $800 a gallon.

Still...

Yeah, but they're the only game in town if you want "scale" looking paint and don't want to be limited to the colors that "someone else" decides to put into a spray can.

Or I suppose that you could go through the mess, expense and head ache of trying to mix it yourself.

Besides, a 2 oz. jar of Scale finishes paint costs $9.99.

If you do it right, there is more than enough paint in a jar to do 2, or possibly 3 builds.

Personally, I'll probably never do more than one build in a particular color anyway, so an ounce is probably enough for me.

But regardless, 1/3rd of a bottle would be $3.33 worth of paint for one project.

That's not out of line in my opinion.

Especially when it is such a pleasure to work with!

 

I hope that Scale Finishes and MCW are making HUGE profits!

I want them to be around for a while!

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Bucky]

I gotta get practiced up on my airbrushes, so I can start using these fantastic colors! 

[LL3 Model Worx]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Yeah, but they're the only game in town if you want "scale" looking paint and don't want to be limited to the colors that "someone else" decides to put into a spray can.

Or I suppose that you could go through the mess, expense and head ache of trying to mix it yourself.

Besides, a 2 oz. jar of Scale finishes paint costs $9.99.

If you do it right, there is more than enough paint in a jar to do 2, or possibly 3 builds.

Personally, I'll probably never do more than one build in a particular color anyway, so an ounce is probably enough for me.

But regardless, 1/3rd of a bottle would be $3.33 worth of paint for one project.

That's not out of line in my opinion.

Especially when it is such a pleasure to work with!

 

I hope that Scale Finishes and MCW are making HUGE profits!

I want them to be around for a while!

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

I agree with you Steve, those guys are filling a needed role, and they should absolutely be making money doing it if people want the product.

I do not begrudge them a living at all, and it is priced right for a conveniant niche application for sure.

I was just illustrating the basic economic break down of that particular "cottage industry".

For factory correct colors in a convenient package they can't be beat, no one can deny that.

Heck even though I have access to practically any automotive paint in any color I want, I still prefer Testor enamels for models.

Call it Nostalgia...l or me being an idiot... whichever lol

 

 

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

26 minutes ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

I agree with you Steve, those guys are filling a needed role, and they should absolutely be making money doing it if people want the product.

I do not begrudge them a living at all, and it is priced right for a conveniant niche application for sure.

I was just illustrating the basic economic break down of that particular "cottage industry".

For factory correct colors in a convenient package they can't be beat, no one can deny that.

Heck even though I have access to practically any automotive paint in any color I want, I still prefer Testor enamels for models.

Call it Nostalgia...l or me being an idiot... whichever lol

 

 

 

I understand your sentiment Leroy.

Just had to defend some of my most beloved after market providers.

I think of it along the same lines as some of the individuals who provide chroming services.

Some guys are perfectly happy with using alternatives like Spaz-Stix or Molotow for their chroming needs.

I feel that there is no substitute for real chrome.

As I nervously sit and watch these services slowly disappear, I fear that many of these cottage industries will go away in the not too distant future unless the dwindling population of modelers uses their services.

The hobby would absolutely be poorer without them.

I really can't see myself continuing to build without some of these, what I consider essential providers.

 

The same argument could be used for some of the other aftermarket providers like Modelhaus.

What a huge loss that was!

 

 

 

Steve

[Muncie]

not a pro painter here, but have had some good paint jobs on model cars.  I painted a 1:1 Chevelle long ago when acrylic enamel with a hardener was the go to automotive paint material.  It wasn't perfect.  Based on that, I can't think of anything worse for model cars.  Yeah, it can be made to work but it has a lot of problems.  It has to have a hardener to dry properly.  Enamels dry by chemistry and with a hardener it has a schedule that must be followed from mixing, to painting to drying - miss the schedule and there will be problems.  It can cure so hard that it cannot be polished if you don't hit the time window. 

As mentioned, and this was also discussed in a community college general automotive class, the automotive enamel paint materials contain  isocyanates - basically like super glue which is attracted to moisture like in you eyes and lungs.  A little bit goes a long way and can do a lot of damage very quickly with very little exposure you are using proper automotive paint equipment. Plugging your lungs with isocyanates means you don't breathe.  Scary stuff.  Cost per ounce may be low compared to model paint, but if you don't paint a lot of models with the same color, it a pretty high cost per model.  Automotive enamel also has a shelf life in a can that has been opened - it won't last forever, plan to throw some away. 

Am I trying to discourage automotive enamels on model cars - that would be yes, there are easier paints to use and the health issue is just too scary. 

(I believe from their web site that MCW is a PPG automotive lacquer, not an enamel.) 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Muncie

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Bucky said:

I gotta get practiced up on my airbrushes, so I can start using these fantastic colors! 

I bought my first air brush many years ago for one reason, and one reason only..........color availability!

I was really getting tired of having to decide between a couple of dozen colors that someone else decided to put in a can.

One of my biggest joys in this hobby is being able to go to a site like "auto paint reference", look at all of the colors available for a particular make and year of car, and then take a quick skip over to a place like Scale Finishes and know that I will be able to order the exact color that I have decided upon.

For a fanatical factory stock builder like myself, accurate factory colors are a must, and with the help of these aftermarket providers, I no longer have to rely on either "close enough", or choose a different color.

 

 

Steve

[LL3 Model Worx]

15 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I understand your sentiment Leroy.

Just had to defend some of my most beloved after market providers.

I think of it along the same lines as some of the individuals who provide chroming services.

Some guys are perfectly happy with using alternatives like Spaz-Stix or Molotow for their chroming needs.

I feel that there is no substitute for real chrome.

As I nervously sit and watch these services slowly disappear, I fear that many of these cottage industries will go away in the not too distant future unless the dwindling population of modelers uses their services.

The hobby would absolutely be poorer without them.

I really can't see myself continuing to build without some of these, what I consider essential providers.

 

The same argument could be used for some of the other aftermarket providers like Modelhaus.

What a huge loss that was!

 

 

 

Steve

I do understand where you are coming from for certain Steve. And I don't really think model making is gonna go anywhere, at least not for the foreseeable future.

Alot of the reason some of the aftermarket places are going belly up is because competition nowadays seems to be pretty fierce! Much more so than years gone by....

I mean now instead of just Pro tech and Detail master, you have how many countless other "companies" pedaling the same type stuff?

The market isn't declining I don't think, it's the market share that's being spread to thinly in certain areas.

8 minutes ago, Muncie said:

not a pro painter here, but have had some good paint jobs on model cars.  I painter a 1:1 Chevelle long ago when acrylic enamel with a hardener was the go to automotive paint material.  It wasn't perfect.  Based on that, I can't think of anything worse for model cars.  Yeah, it can be made to work but it has a lot of problems.  It has to have a hardener to dry properly.  Enamels dry by chemistry and with a hardener it has a schedule that must be followed from mixing, to painting to drying - miss the schedule and there will be problems.  It can cure so hard that it cannot be polished if you don't hit the time window. 

As mentioned, and this was also discussed in a community college general automotive class, the automotive enamel paint materials contain  isocyanates - basically like super glue which is attracted to moisture like in you eyes and lungs.  A little bit goes a long way and can do a lot of damage very quickly with very little exposure you are using proper automotive paint equipment. Plugging your lungs with isocyanates means you don't breathe.  Scary stuff.  Cost per ounce may be low compared to model paint, but if you don't paint a lot of models with the same color, it a pretty high cost per model.  Automotive enamel also has a shelf life in a can that has been opened - it won't last forever, plan to throw some away. 

Am I trying to discourage automotive enamels on model cars - that would be yes, there are easier paints to use and the health issue is just too scary. 

(I believe from their web site that MCW is a PPG automotive lacquer, not an enamel.) 

Enamel doesn't dry...it cures. The solvents evaporate over time.

Some automotive enamels are not catalyzed and take time to "gas out"

The old stuff that you are talking about is not commonly used for anything anymore. 

Modern urethanes have taken over in the automotive world.

Lacquer is practically obsolete paint tech also as far as automobiles are concerned. As they are harder to apply, less durable, with not near the impact or wear resistance of modern urethane.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by LL3 Model Worx

[Muncie]

3 minutes ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

 

Enamel doesn't dry...it cures. The solvents evaporate over time.

Some automotive enamels are not catalyzed and take time to "gas out"

The old stuff that you are talking about is not commonly used for anything anymore. 

Modern urethanes have taken over in the automotive world.

Lacquer is practically obsolete paint tech also as far as automobiles are concerned. As they are harder to apply, less durable, with not near the impact or wear resistance of modern urethane.

 

 

Absolutely, I got a little lazy with some terminology,  both automotive lacquer and enamels are old technology and difficult or impossible to find at automotive paint supply shops.  Automotive urethanes also scare me for the same reason as the enamels with a hardener, but that's mostly because I don't know much about urethanes.  I never intend to use them for model cars.  The main point I wanted to make was about safety. 

[Modelbuilder Mark]

I have owned many after market automotive paints, and currently have Cobra Colors, MCW, and others, including some 1:1 automotive quart leftovers I have picked up over the years, and will say that there is just so much to be said for using quality automotive paints.

As for quantities, Scalefinishes is not buying pre-made gallons, then diluting them. As of 2014, he bought his own Dupont mixing machine. How little his batches are, I do not know, but I would likely venture he is not knocking out full gallons, and the above profit margins are not taking into consideration the cost of the machine, his time (certainly worth something), unsold inventory/stock, etc.

I personally do not want to pay $9 per bottle either, but if you look for sales and deals, you will not always need to. I just got the Dec newsletter today, and it was giving 30% off entire order, including sale items, which sometimes are as little as $2 a bottle. I will often buy a bunch of colors up from the sale section, just to have in stock.I have 5 items in my cart right now, and WITH shipping, the total is $12.99, so I am still looking around to get the order to $20.

 

 

[LL3 Model Worx]

1 minute ago, Muncie said:

Absolutely, I got a little lazy with some terminology,  both automotive lacquer and enamels are old technology and difficult or impossible to find at automotive paint supply shops.  Automotive urethanes also scare me for the same reason as the enamels with a hardener, but that's mostly because I don't know much about urethanes.  I never intend to use them for model cars.  The main point I wanted to make was about safety. 

Oh yea, fully agree on safety awareness!

In fact, I know someone personally who had a lung collapse because of catalyzed paint.

I personally still prefer Testors enamel for plastic models... and also enjoy Lacquer.

But the 2pak stuff for me just isn't worth it on plastic... I have 2 kits painted with the stuff from when I was real young and they do look good, but it's just not worth it for me.

[LL3 Model Worx]

48 minutes ago, Modelbuilder Mark said:

I have owned many after market automotive paints, and currently have Cobra Colors, MCW, and others, including some 1:1 automotive quart leftovers I have picked up over the years, and will say that there is just so much to be said for using quality automotive paints.

As for quantities, Scalefinishes is not buying pre-made gallons, then diluting them. As of 2014, he bought his own Dupont mixing machine. How little his batches are, I do not know, but I would likely venture he is not knocking out full gallons, and the above profit margins are not taking into consideration the cost of the machine, his time (certainly worth something), unsold inventory/stock, etc.

I personally do not want to pay $9 per bottle either, but if you look for sales and deals, you will not always need to. I just got the Dec newsletter today, and it was giving 30% off entire order, including sale items, which sometimes are as little as $2 a bottle. I will often buy a bunch of colors up from the sale section, just to have in stock.I have 5 items in my cart right now, and WITH shipping, the total is $12.99, so I am still looking around to get the order to $20.

 

 

You can't count for his time separate from the profit... his profit is for his time and his time is for his profit.

You don't pay yourself and then see how much profit you made... lol

We had several mixing machines... I operated them and mixed for my father for many years.

Those machines are usually not bought, they are kind of "loaned" usually. Ours were Sherwin Williams... we sold paint that they carried so we had their machines.

And they ARE buying gallons of premade paint... what do you think they are mixing with? They are also likely using cheap thinner...to keep it relatively safe for plastic.

I agree the quality of auto paint is fantastic in most cases. I have sprayed 100s of gallons of it that's for sure... I even sprayed a few kits with it years ago when I was around 12 or so... still have the models.

I take no issue with the pricing or the products... If there is any issue I have it's all these companies Zero, Gravity, Splash, MCW, Scale finishes etc... all claiming their product is somehow different and better than the other guys... when they are all practically the same. But when alot of people are fighting over a tiny share of a tiny market that's to be expected...

Its just like when some resin caster gets upset when someone else copies their piece that they themselves copied from a kit...

It's like "Its ok to rip someone off, as long as you are the first to do it" mentality that I have seen a fair amount of in this hobby.

I see the same thing in music gear...

 

 

 

[redneckrigger]

I've been using acrylic enamels for years on my builds, without the hardener. Some of the paint still in my stash is from when I operated my own body shop over 20 years ago, and it still is great. I still buy PPG acrylic enamels in 1 pint cans when I need a particular color, and it goes a LONG way. I prime with Mr. Primer Surfacer, (usually the 1200 grade), on bare plastic, and then paint using regular PPG medium reducers. I personally have found that the quality of a paint job is far less dependent upon the quality or type of paint, and FAR more dependent on the quality of the application. I use a Paasche V series two stage airbrush. In my shop we used PPG enamels and acrylic enamels, Dupont Centari and Imron, as well as lacquers, PPG Durethane and their base/clear systems, various primers such as PPG DP series and Dupont VariPrime, and while the application requirements were all different, basic practices in application adjusted to the system at hand all turned out wonderful jobs. I closed the shop and retired from there just before waterborne systems became popular, and have zero experience with them. And that is, after 50 years of building, the exact same thing I have found in my builds, application is EVERYTHING. I DO strive for scale appearances, mainly in gloss, so in that area, for those that try to get glass like finishes, I don't go there, as that does not fit my build style.

Edited January 20, 2020 by redneckrigger