BIG-JIM Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I just cast up a 37 ford truck grill. It's two pieces and it doesn't look too bad. Is there any interest in these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantrix Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Okay this brings me to a question that has been bugging me concerning the legality of resin casting parts. I can see that no one would get in a twist about someone resin casting old Johan/Pyro/Aurora parts but we're talking about casting parts from Revell kits that are still in production and on store shelves. Anyone know the rules here concerning this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmikeman Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 seems like it would be a no no unless cast for your own use. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I've wondered about that too Rob,but you see resin casters popping out parts that you know are directly from kits all of the time. Seems like it wouldn't matter if the kit was out of production or not. I would think casters would have to have some sort of agreement with the kit companies in order to produce direct copies of their parts. Back to the question though,yeah,I would buy a '37 truck grille. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Smith Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) If it's a direct copy, that would be protected by copyright. I'm pretty sure models have a copyright warning on the box and instruction sheet. If it's modified, it would possibly depend on what extent it is changed from the original. Edited April 12, 2011 by Coyotehybrids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High octane Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Doesn't Replicas & Miniatures of Maryland offer one of those already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naydrus Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I have yet to work with resin... but if someone is casting a specific part because A: Its cool, and B: Its functional in the aspect of that it can be used on different builds, then I see no reason why they shouldnt be allowed to. Im fully aware of the whole copyright thing.. but stop and look, people download music and movies from the Net all the time? They cant lock ALL of us up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Smith Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I have yet to work with resin... but if someone is casting a specific part because A: Its cool, and B: Its functional in the aspect of that it can be used on different builds, then I see no reason why they shouldnt be allowed to. Im fully aware of the whole copyright thing.. but stop and look, people download music and movies from the Net all the time? They cant lock ALL of us up. It doesn't have to do with taking away your rights. It has to do with protecting the rights of those who created the original product. What makes you think you could download and then sell a song you didn't write? Does that make sense? That's essentially what is happening of you copy an item and sell it, regardless of the medium. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? Ethically, no. Legally, no. Put yourself in the shoes of the original maker, say, a resin caster. You spend hours creating an item and sell it. Then you see a copy of your item on eBay. How would you deal with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG-JIM Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 What's funny here is; everyone is assuming that it's a copy of the revell kit. It is not. To be perfectly honest I was in the local Rite aid and my kid picked up a car & said "daddy can I get this?" "Sure can but I get the grill!" I replied. Thanks for the feedback that's why I posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaronw Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) i'm wondering why there would be a desire for the grill out of an easily found model kit? Is the '37 Ford truck grill particularly popular on cars that are not a '37 Ford truck? As far as the copyright issue, I'm sure legally there is a point there, but really doubt Revell (or which ever brand the toy truck is) would be the slightest bit concerned about an amatuer resin caster popping of a dozen or two compared to the many thousands they sell annually. I'd be more worried about Ford myself, they do have a history of aggressively hunting down unauthorized use of their "image". Edited April 12, 2011 by Aaronw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparmagiclives Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Okay this brings me to a question that has been bugging me concerning the legality of resin casting parts. I can see that no one would get in a twist about someone resin casting old Johan/Pyro/Aurora parts but we're talking about casting parts from Revell kits that are still in production and on store shelves. Anyone know the rules here concerning this situation? Now, lets say I purches said parts and go home to cast my own, then sell those. Who gets paid now? Which brings me to my question, If the said parts to "be" cast, didnt come from a unit marked as "trade marked" or "under licence of"? Is it open season? I've wondered about this kind of stuff myself for a wile too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Smith Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) Trademark and copyright are not the same thing. Trademark issues, such as using Good Year on tires, relate to a "distinctive sign or indicator", not content. Copyright gives "exclusive rights to the creator of the original work". So the Ford emblem would be a trademark issue, copying an original piece would be a copyright issue. Just because you purchase something does not give you the right to reproduce it beyond personal use. BigJim - I didn't think this was a copy of the Revell piece or a copyright infringement as I don't know the source of the grill - just going with the conversation that developed from the post. Sorry if it's off track now. Edited April 12, 2011 by Coyotehybrids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Okay this brings me to a question that has been bugging me concerning the legality of resin casting parts. I can see that no one would get in a twist about someone resin casting old Johan/Pyro/Aurora parts but we're talking about casting parts from Revell kits that are still in production and on store shelves. Anyone know the rules here concerning this situation? There are rules, of course: To begin with, there are at least two entities involved as regards copyright issues involving a model car kit (or for many other subject areas as well). There are the copyrights owned by the manufacturer of the real car or truck, AND those copyrights rightfully owned by the company who made the model kit. In the case of a direct recast of a model kit part for sale, either the 1:1 automaker OR the model kit manufacturer can come after the individual or company doing such direct reproductions (and there have been instances in which either or both have happened). As a practical matter though, if a model kit has been out of production for so long a time as to lead others to believe that it will never be reissued (or if the manufacturer, such as Aurora has disappeared from the scene years ago) then I suppose that reasonably, nobody in the model kit industry is going to take issue with any reproduction of such kits or parts involved--Modelhaus and other resin casters have all done that over the years. But IF the part is a direct repop of a part from a currently available kit (or from a kit that gets reissued periodically) then the kit manufacturer can come after the person(s)reproducing said part. In any case, if there is a 1:1 automaker who owns (or claims to own) the rights to a formerly produced car or truck, they can also bring action to stop such reproductions in miniature if no authorization was obtained. Now, if the model kit part is substantially modified from its original form, say either to make it adaptable to a kit other than the one it was taken from (a chopped '37 Ford grille and shell, a chopped '32 Ford grille shell and grille) then it's going to be pretty hard for a model kit mfr to make any claims, and I don't believe any have ever done that. Additionally, 1:1 automakers aren't likely to be worried about such customized or modified parts in a model kit either. Trademarks, however, can be a different story, and often are: FORD is a registered trademark of Ford Motor Company, when applied to an automobile or truck, or parts therein. Years ago, Ford Motor Company blanketly would not even allow reproduction parts for antique Fords to carry the Ford script (ever see reproduction hubcaps for a Model A or Model T that read "FOOL" instead of "FORD"? That was the result (Ford saw the light, saw that people restoring old Fords correctly was a good thing, about 1970 or so, but that is the history of it. Chevrolet trademarked, over the years, not only Chevrolet, but Chevy, Bowtie, USA-1 and numerous other names and nicknames. But in the bottom line, why directly copy a part or parts from a currently available model kit? That to me seems just a bit unethical to day the least, if it's done for profit, profit gained by selling copies to others in an unlimited fashion. Now, if one wants to reproduce that part for their own use, I believe the "fair use" doctrine allows that, just as it allows a student to photocopy a page out of a book or magazine as part of a research project, or to lift directly text from someone else's publication (as long as it is credited, either directly in the body of that student's writing, or as a footnote at the bottom of the page (think High School Term Paper 101). But why bite the hand that feeds our hobby with not only old favorite kits, but even new product from time to time? (and why risk legal action from a real car manufacturer--who certainly can afford a bigger lawyer than any of us modelers can pay for?) Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jairus Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Is there a "LIKE" button? Because I want one... I like the above post! Way to go ART! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 I believe it was in the truck section of this forum that one of our members who had a small home-based business making decals was issued a formal cease-and-desist order from Kenworth (I think) to stop selling logo decals and to destroy any he had in inventory. You'd never expect such vigilance to reach down to this level, but they DO check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Cole Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 And THAT... is why we have lawyer jokes! Because they don't have bigger fish to fry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunajammer Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Company branding and preserving product integrity really is a big deal to any business big or small. How much or little the infringement hurts is of little consequence. It's been my experience that they don't want to be the bad guys either so they usually politely but professionally ask you to refrain from stealing their branding or product rights, then shake hands and say thanks. If they discover their request has been disrespected you get whacked. To me it's common courtesy. A little stealing is not alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Most Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 As Jim pointed out, it isn't a copy of the REVELL kit part, so the whole thing about Revell and copyrights and whatnot seems like a moot point. Sheesh- look at the photo and it clearly isn't the Revell piece! And since it doesn't have the Ford logo or script on it, I don't see any issues there, either. How many members of Ford's legal team do you wager even know what a '37 Ford truck grille looks like, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG-JIM Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 i'm wondering why there would be a desire for the grill out of an easily found model kit? Is the '37 Ford truck grill particularly popular on cars that are not a '37 Ford truck? Why buy a whole kit for just that one part? Just my take... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Most Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 '37 (and '38) Ford truck grilles were really popular on East Coast rods back in the early days, kind of like the Terraplane and Farmall grilles are with rat rodders now. I'm guilty of buying at least one or two '37's just for the grille. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG-JIM Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 There are rules, of course: To begin with, there are at least two entities involved as regards copyright issues involving a model car kit (or for many other subject areas as well). There are the copyrights owned by the manufacturer of the real car or truck, AND those copyrights rightfully owned by the company who made the model kit. In the case of a direct recast of a model kit part for sale, either the 1:1 automaker OR the model kit manufacturer can come after the individual or company doing such direct reproductions (and there have been instances in which either or both have happened). As a practical matter though, if a model kit has been out of production for so long a time as to lead others to believe that it will never be reissued (or if the manufacturer, such as Aurora has disappeared from the scene years ago) then I suppose that reasonably, nobody in the model kit industry is going to take issue with any reproduction of such kits or parts involved--Modelhaus and other resin casters have all done that over the years. But IF the part is a direct repop of a part from a currently available kit (or from a kit that gets reissued periodically) then the kit manufacturer can come after the person(s)reproducing said part. In any case, if there is a 1:1 automaker who owns (or claims to own) the rights to a formerly produced car or truck, they can also bring action to stop such reproductions in miniature if no authorization was obtained. Now, if the model kit part is substantially modified from its original form, say either to make it adaptable to a kit other than the one it was taken from (a chopped '37 Ford grille and shell, a chopped '32 Ford grille shell and grille) then it's going to be pretty hard for a model kit mfr to make any claims, and I don't believe any have ever done that. Additionally, 1:1 automakers aren't likely to be worried about such customized or modified parts in a model kit either. Trademarks, however, can be a different story, and often are: FORD is a registered trademark of Ford Motor Company, when applied to an automobile or truck, or parts therein. Years ago, Ford Motor Company blanketly would not even allow reproduction parts for antique Fords to carry the Ford script (ever see reproduction hubcaps for a Model A or Model T that read "FOOL" instead of "FORD"? That was the result (Ford saw the light, saw that people restoring old Fords correctly was a good thing, about 1970 or so, but that is the history of it. Chevrolet trademarked, over the years, not only Chevrolet, but Chevy, Bowtie, USA-1 and numerous other names and nicknames. But in the bottom line, why directly copy a part or parts from a currently available model kit? That to me seems just a bit unethical to day the least, if it's done for profit, profit gained by selling copies to others in an unlimited fashion. Now, if one wants to reproduce that part for their own use, I believe the "fair use" doctrine allows that, just as it allows a student to photocopy a page out of a book or magazine as part of a research project, or to lift directly text from someone else's publication (as long as it is credited, either directly in the body of that student's writing, or as a footnote at the bottom of the page (think High School Term Paper 101). But why bite the hand that feeds our hobby with not only old favorite kits, but even new product from time to time? (and why risk legal action from a real car manufacturer--who certainly can afford a bigger lawyer than any of us modelers can pay for?) Art WOW! Art you have had a lot of time to think about this subject! I REALLY am not doing this for the money. I probably spend more money on developing molds buying supplies & paying ebay fees then its worth. I just enjoy bringing things to the table for you guy's to build stuff. I am a guy that did a lot of old car related stuff in my youth & over the years I have been unable to work on my old cars; so this is what I do now to tinker with old cars. I just can't get down on my knees to work on them I wish I could. I suppose I will just have to be content with looking at the models you all make because I just don't have the talent for it. It is very time consuming making these parts but I enjoy it. Trust me I'm not getting rich doing this. Just seeing my parts on a nicely executed model is gratifying enough. PS. If I were to type out a post that long it would take me 4 hours...(I'm a one finger bandit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG-JIM Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 Doesn't Replicas & Miniatures of Maryland offer one of those already? I just looked them up. They make a 32 ford grill with a custom 37 truck insert. Thanks I did not know they made one. As I have stated many times I'm not a builder I just observe 1;1 builds & try to offer parts for you guys to build stuff with a similar look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Cates Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Do it until you get caught...then say it was an accident! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG-JIM Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 Do it until you get caught...then say it was an accident! I could just play stupid... Who am I kidding....Play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG-JIM Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 As Jim pointed out, it isn't a copy of the REVELL kit part, so the whole thing about Revell and copyrights and whatnot seems like a moot point. Sheesh- look at the photo and it clearly isn't the Revell piece! And since it doesn't have the Ford logo or script on it, I don't see any issues there, either. How many members of Ford's legal team do you wager even know what a '37 Ford truck grille looks like, anyway? Thanks for the props Chuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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